Bayonetta 2

Generic Dreadhead · 13-10-2014 1:17pm

COYVB wrote: »

Since when are 3.5/5 and 7.5/10 not favourable reviews?

Since Destiny :pac:

wes · 13-10-2014 1:17pm

Banjo wrote: »

BTW - I'm old, so bear with me. When did "fan service" become an acceptable synonym for "ludicrous amounts of T&A"?

Well, when the fans want a ludicrous amount of T&A, its applicable imho..... BTW, there taking the piss the entire time, it pokes fun at this kind of thing.

Banjo wrote: »

It used to mean giving the core audience what they wanted, which I thought in this case was supposed to be the pinnacle of skill-oriented gaming? And a few nods to Nintendo heritage? I haven't played the original, as I mentioned, so maybe I've been barking up the wrong tree here, but is watching an imaginary cartoon woman prancing around in the nip the primary draw here?

Have you watched any of the trailers, or game play video's? As for being a game of skill, on the harder modes that is the case, but in the first game, they also had a super easy mode, that you could play with 1 hand........ (again, there taking the piss btw).

Look if someone had no clue about the game, then yes it would be jarring, but I find it hard to believe that anyone buying a relatively niche title like this wouldn't be aware of what it sets out to do.

I stand by what I said about the review, what exactly did they expect?

blag · 13-10-2014 1:17pm

Banjo wrote: »

OK forget I said Hustler. That was, as you said, an unfair button-pushing comparison. (Although, in fairness, the first time I saw a Hustler magazine - which was back before the golden age of internet porn - I was pretty surprised by how far they were going relative to Playboy. But I digress...)

Have you seen Tokyo Gore Police?
I went in, eyes open, expecting an ultra violent gonzo bloodfest.
But jesus

I'm still disgusted with myself that I watched that film to the end. And that I enjoyed it. One of my greatest fears is that I will die suddenly and my kids will find the DVD and one day watch it and wonder what kind of monster I really was And I've a feeling I'll be hiding Bayonetta under it.

Point being, it's possible to have reasonable expectations based on reputation and marketing and still be unpleasantly surprised. I for one am glad to see that at least one reviewer isn't afraid to voice their opinion, even if it's not popular. That is, after all, what a review is for...

BTW - I'm old, so bear with me. When did "fan service" become an acceptable synonym for "ludicrous amounts of T&A"? It used to mean giving the core audience what they wanted, which I thought in this case was supposed to be the pinnacle of skill-oriented gaming? And a few nods to Nintendo heritage? I haven't played the original, as I mentioned, so maybe I've been barking up the wrong tree here, but is watching an imaginary cartoon woman prancing around in the nip the primary draw here?

I'd go with your definition of what fan service is. I loved the original and the primary draw is precisely what you imagine, i.e. a fast paced technical combo driven game with a nice scoring system.

Comparing the game to porn in any form is a bit of a stretch. It pokes fun at itself the whole time and you'd need to be a real conservative to be offended by it IMO.

Xenji · 13-10-2014 1:22pm

COYVB wrote: »

Since when are 3.5/5 and 7.5/10 not favourable reviews?

Just compared to the bucketload of 9's and 10's it got.

Retr0gamer · 13-10-2014 1:23pm

Cormac... wrote: »

Since Destiny :pac:

8/10, as good as Halo.

Generic Dreadhead · 13-10-2014 1:24pm

Retr0gamer wrote: »

8/10, as good as Halo.

Twas but a joke

ERG89 · 13-10-2014 1:29pm

Imagine playing Bayonetta 1 for the first time again and then a sequel. Lucky b*stard WiiU owners. Don't bother with that polygon reviews with the not so hidden agenda. Although I haven't a clue where to find impartial, honest reviewers these days. I'd love to have a look at these guys internet history and see how high they stand morally then. Bet they seen a lot worse than a fecking video game character

gizmo · 13-10-2014 2:12pm

wes wrote: »

Well, when the fans want a ludicrous amount of T&A, its applicable imho..... BTW, there taking the piss the entire time, it pokes fun at this kind of thing.

I would imagine the majority of Bayonetta fans love it for its skill-oriented combat rather than the T&A. Let me put it like this, which do you think would have the most negative effect on the sales of Bayonetta, toning down the sexualised nature of the protagonist or turning the combat into something more akin to God of War?

As for Platinum taking the piss with the over the top nature of some of the content, I totally agree. Still doesn't stop me from wincing a little when I see stuff like this though.

ERG89 wrote: »

Imagine playing Bayonetta 1 for the first time again and then a sequel. Lucky b*stard WiiU owners. Don't bother with that polygon reviews with the not so hidden agenda. Although I haven't a clue where to find impartial, honest reviewers these days. I'd love to have a look at these guys internet history and see how high they stand morally then. Bet they seen a lot worse than a fecking video game character

Gies was honest in his review though. He was upfront about his opinion and having read the text of the review I was under no illusions as to why he gave the game a lower than expected score at the end. If I was going to base my purchase on his review alone then I'd still be buying it because, despite detailing the content he found objectionable, he still mentioned all of the facets of the game that I love in a positive light. Said content he found objectionable, on the other hand, doesn't bother me as much. The final score, as a result of all this, is meaningless to me.

wes · 13-10-2014 2:21pm

gizmo wrote: »

I would imagine the majority of Bayonetta fans love it for its skill-oriented combat rather than the T&A. Let me put it like this, which do you think would have the most negative effect on the sales of Bayonetta, toning down the sexualised nature of the protagonist or turning the combat into something more akin to God of War?

I am sure there for the game play, but at the same time, they know full well what to expect from the game. IMHO, let the creators make the game that they want, and I have seen no fans of the games clamoring for the toning down the fan service stuff.

gizmo wrote: »

As for Platinum taking the piss with the over the top nature of some of the content, I totally agree. Still doesn't stop me from wincing a little when I see stuff like this though.

It wouldn't surprise me if that is what they were going for.

gizmo wrote: »

Gies was honest in his review though. He was upfront about his opinion and having read the text of the review I was under no illusions as to why he gave the game a lower than expected score at the end. If I was going to base my purchase on his review alone then I'd still be buying it because, despite detailing the content he found objectionable, he still mentioned all of the facets of the game that I love in a positive light. Said content he found objectionable, on the other hand, doesn't bother me as much. The final score, as a result of all this, is meaningless to me.

Honest or not, I still find his position amusing. Again, my opinion on what he wrote, is simple, its Bayonetta, what exactly did he expect?

Randall Floyd · 13-10-2014 2:29pm

Giving a game a comparatively bad score because you don't like its aesthetic is fair enough I guess, the high scores the game has received elsewhere seemed to focus more on the gameplay and rightly so.

Banjo · 13-10-2014 2:30pm

wes wrote: »

BTW, there taking the piss the entire time, it pokes fun at this kind of thing.

I'm trying to avoid making any kind of ridiculously generalised judgement, but if you ever find yourself working in an office environment with mixed genders, races or religions and a HR policy that was written or revised at some point since the 1970s, you will find that the fact that you're taking the piss does not in any way excuse your actions. Be warned!

Have you watched any of the trailers, <etc etc >

Look if someone had no clue about the game, then yes it would be jarring, but I find it hard to believe that anyone buying a relatively niche title like this wouldn't be aware of what it sets out to do.

I stand by what I said about the review, what exactly did they expect?

I'm not sure you understand the concept of a review. This is a person who is payed to play this game and give an opinion. Whether or not they want to play is immaterial. It's their job. This guy/gal could clearly not objectively separate the "fan service" which they didn't enjoy from the gameplay which they did. And that's fine. They were very specific that they found those elements jolted them out of their immersion, and I can see how that might happen if you're not entirely comfortable with the level of digiflesh on show here, the lascivious manner in which it's paraded and the risk/reward structure that gives you more cheap thrills the better you play. If you disagree, disagree. But don't act like your opinion is the only one that matters.

Just for the record, I am for the most part playing devil's advocate.
I owned Beach Spikers on the Gamecube. I have no moral high ground to retreat to here

I downloaded the demo last night but didn't get a chance to play - and I did that because I'm really looking forward to playing it, not because I want to be outraged. I'm just offended by the idea that just because someone "should have known better" they have no right to be offended.

Besides, all it takes is for one impressionable idiot* after a few beers trying to punch their wife in the face to see if she'll go into Witch Time, take off all her clothes and strike some serious poses. It could all end very, very badly once the Daily Mail get involved.

*Edit : I am not that impressionable idiot. I swear, honey. It wasn't me! A man broke into the house and while you were unconscious I chased him away. Really, I'm a hero

johnny_ultimate · 13-10-2014 2:41pm

I have no problem with people giving out about fan service - I've actually stopped watching otherwise decent anime shows because of the vast amount of t&a (and occasional casual homophobia). If they don't like it, better to be upfront and honest about it - a review is subjective after all, despite the ever-insane Internet demands for total objectivity in opinions and inability to respect alternate perspectives. In extreme cases, I have found hyper or over sexualisation can taint my enjoyment of any given game / show whatever and distract from everything it does right.

Nonetheless, I've never actually had a major problem with the way Bayonetta handles hyper sexualisation. Firstly, the character herself is a confident, self-aware and independent individual who embraces and uses her sexuality with pride - a big difference to the leery and creepy male gaze directed at much more fragile (and usually very young) characters in other works. Bayonetta is a bold, brash response to that horrid anime and gaming trope - she is undoubtedly eroticised, but it is handled in a very different context. It also helps that the tone is so consistently OTT that the way the character is presented fits perfectly with the general mood of the game. It's a truly rare case when hyper sexualisation IMO is a proud statement of intent.

Again, if someone voices an alternate take, I can see the alternate reading and respect it. But IMO this is a game that uses sexuality in a far different manner than most other examples of shameless 'fan service'.

Retr0gamer · 13-10-2014 2:53pm

One other thing people forget is that Bayonetta was designed by a woman and Kamiya gave her free reign in designing her.

gizmo · 13-10-2014 3:05pm

wes wrote: »

I am sure there for the game play, but at the same time, they know full well what to expect from the game. IMHO, let the creators make the game that they want, and I have seen no fans of the games clamoring for the toning down the fan service stuff.

I'm not saying fans are calling for anything to be toned down, I'm saying they're fans of the game more so because of the combat system, responsive controls and overall presentation. I'd wager they wouldn't bat an eyelid if Bayonetta covered up a bit more or the camera focused less on specific body parts during cutscenes as long as the strong traits exhibited by the character don't change in the process. Thus, as Banjo said above, I wouldn't call this latter aspect fan service at all.

I certainly agree on letting the creators make the game they want though. Thankfully Kamiya has frequently stated he's not interested in people who have an issue with how the characters in his games are presented.

wes wrote: »

Honest or not, I still find his position amusing. Again, my opinion on what he wrote, is simple, its Bayonetta, what exactly did he expect?

I'm quite sure Gies knew what he was getting himself in for. After all, he reviewed the first game for Team XBox back in 2009, giving the game 8/10 and speaking very highly of areas I mentioned above. Even back then he discussed the sexualised nature of the character though so, given how it's supposedly been ramped up in the sequel and it bothered him the first time around, it's not really surprising he's given it the score he has.

Retr0gamer wrote: »

One other thing people forget is that Bayonetta was designed by a woman and Kamiya gave her free reign in designing her.

It's worth pointing out that, as with any character design, there were a great many variations created during the concept stage, many of which were considerably more clothed than the final design. I'm also rather sure Kamiya himself would have had the final say on the design, regardless of how involved Shimazaki and Hashimoto would have been up to that point.

richymcdermott · 13-10-2014 3:06pm

This is reminding me of the simpsons episode when marge was trying to ban violence with Itchy and Scratchy then others tried to ban Michelangelo sculpture because of Nudity.

Point being while it has not necessarily being come across there is nothing wrong with Nudity in itself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfUJRdHSukA

Nudity and sexualisation in Anime or movies has never put me off from watching unless its broken up the plot or ruined the pace of a story cough cough* Game of Thrones.

I played Bayonetta 1 and while Bayonetta herself is how I put it over Glamorous In her movestyle and style Never once I was like I wish they toned it down. Its what makes her stand out in the end , a different personality to the ones criticized for being the damsel or the one being too dominant in stature. There is no right or wrong in one persons choice on how they want to make there games.

This reminded me of the days when god of war was bashed for its sex mini games, it was optional you did not have to do it, just like here if it bothered you that much how Bayonetta is still too sexy for you do not play it.

How many actresses have played strippers or women treated poorly in movies , I fail to see any critic go women should not be treated like this and then given a poor additional score because of it.

Though the score in this case did not bother me was just someone being shocked to a sequel that they knew what they were getting themselves into annoyed me the most.

Generic Dreadhead · 13-10-2014 3:09pm

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Nonetheless, I've never actually had a major problem with the way Bayonetta handles hyper sexualisation. Firstly, the character herself is a confident, self-aware and independent individual who embraces and uses her sexuality with pride - a big difference to the leery and creepy male gaze directed at much more fragile (and usually very young) characters in other works. Bayonetta is a bold, brash response to that horrid anime and gaming trope - she is undoubtedly eroticised, but it is handled in a very different context. It also helps that the tone is so consistently OTT that the way the character is presented fits perfectly with the general mood of the game. It's a truly rare case when hyper sexualisation IMO is a proud statement of intent.

Retr0gamer wrote: »

One other thing people forget is that Bayonetta was designed by a woman and Kamiya gave her free reign in designing her.

*Sexism in Video Games Thread Explodes* :pac:

Of course now that it's a strong female character, in a game targeted for a mature audience designed by a female it will be scorned for being overtly sexual and not praised for going against the status quo and carving out it's own destiny

gizmo · 13-10-2014 3:12pm

richymcdermott wrote: »

How many actresses have played strippers or women treated poorly in movies , I fail to see any critic go women should not be treated like this and then given a poor additional score because of it.

*ahem*

wes · 13-10-2014 3:12pm

Banjo wrote: »

I'm trying to avoid making any kind of ridiculously generalised judgement, but if you ever find yourself working in an office environment with mixed genders, races or religions and a HR policy that was written or revised at some point since the 1970s, you will find that the fact that you're taking the piss does not in any way excuse your actions. Be warned!

You would have a valid point, if we were talking about an office environment, we not, and as such, you don't have a valid point.

Seriously, its a video game, that people will play at home.

Banjo wrote: »

I'm not sure you understand the concept of a review. This is a person who is payed to play this game and give an opinion.

I fully understand what a review is. The funny thing about a review, is that I can have an opinion as well, and I am offering my own critique.

Banjo wrote: »

This guy/gal could clearly not objectively separate the "fan service" which they didn't enjoy from the gameplay which they did. And that's fine.

I never said it wasn't ok, just that I find it amusing, and it seems to me that the vast majority of other reviewers, were able to review the title for what it is. Again, I find the opinion amusing, and nothing more. The reviewers opinion is no more precious than mine.

wes · 13-10-2014 3:19pm

gizmo wrote: »

I'm not saying fans are calling for anything to be toned down, I'm saying they're fans of the game more so because of the combat system, responsive controls and overall presentation. I'd wager they wouldn't bat an eyelid if Bayonetta covered up a bit more or the camera focused less on specific body parts during cutscenes as long as the strong traits exhibited by the character don't change in the process. Thus, as Banjo said above, I wouldn't call this latter aspect fan service at all.

I have no idea how fan would react, considering its a niche title, that is only getting a sequel due to Nintendo funding it. It wouldn't bother me a whole lot either way, if the game was still good, but I can't speak for either way to other fans of the game.

gizmo wrote: »

I certainly agree on letting the creators make the game they want though. Thankfully Kamiya has frequently stated he's not interested in people who have an issue with how the characters in his games are presented.

I'm quite sure Gies knew what he was getting himself in for. After all, he reviewed the first game for Team XBox back in 2009, giving the game 8/10 and speaking very highly of areas I mentioned above. Even back then he discussed the sexualised nature of the character though so, given how it's supposedly been ramped up in the sequel and it bothered him the first time around, it's not really surprising he's given it the score he has.

The man is entitled to his hang ups, but again its Bayonetta, its intended to be over the top sexualized, and again what did he expect exactly? Look, I am not fan of fan service stuff, a lot of its really creepy and weird. In the case of Bayonetta, thats not the case, its more of piss take on the whole thing, and I think if perfectly valid to disagree with the reviewer on that basis. When playing the first game, I was laughing at how deliberately over the top the whole thing was, it seems to me that the polygon reviewer simply doesn't get the joke.

CiDeRmAn · 13-10-2014 3:20pm

I want Bayonetta 2 so I can do the same thing I did in the previous game, beat the living shizzle out of god!
Is that so wrong.

And as for sexuality, it is more appropriate than the stream of defenceless wimins awaiting rescue in every other videogame we play, Bayonetta isn't waiting for rescue, probably be unhealthy if you tried!

COYVB · 13-10-2014 3:26pm

wes wrote: »

its Bayonetta, what exactly did he expect?

What do his expectations have to do with what he finds objectionable? Does he ignore what he doesn't like based on the series?

Retr0gamer · 13-10-2014 3:26pm

richymcdermott wrote: »

This reminded me of the days when god of war was bashed for its sex mini games, it was optional you did not have to do it, just like here if it bothered you that much how Bayonetta is still too sexy for you do not play it.

I'd consider God of War at the other end of the spectrum. The nudity and sex are really jarring for me and is utterly childish. It was towing a fine line in the first two games but the third was out right pathetic in that regard. Even the violence went from stylised to pretty cruel in some places.

richymcdermott · 13-10-2014 3:26pm

In the end I hope the game does the impossible and sell well enough we get a bayo 3 because and I am being realistic here I want more games with a combat system close to dmc 3,4 and bayo 1 that actually involves skill and master to learn than rhythm imput or button mashing games.

blag · 13-10-2014 3:28pm

wes wrote: »

The man is entitled to his hang ups, but again its Bayonetta, its intended to be over the top sexualized, and again what did he expect exactly? Look, I am not fan of fan service stuff, a lot of its really creepy and weird. In the case of Bayonetta, thats not the case, its more of piss take on the whole thing, and I think if perfectly valid to disagree with the reviewer on that basis. When playing the first game, I was laughing at how deliberately over the top the whole thing was, it seems to me that the polygon reviewer simply doesn't get the joke.

Is this really considered fan service? I don't think I know what fan service is...I always considered it to be pandering to a specific audience via references etc.

Just did a quick search and apparently it's an anime thing for fan service to reference sexual content?

wes · 13-10-2014 3:29pm

COYVB wrote: »

What do his expectations have to do with what he finds objectionable? Does he ignore what he doesn't like based on the series?

Again, to use the horror film example, it would be equivalent to a review complaining that a horror film, was far to scary. That is the way I view it.

wes · 13-10-2014 3:30pm

blag wrote: »

Just did a quick search and apparently it's an anime thing for fan service to reference sexual content?

Yes, and seeing we were referring to sexual content, I taught it the most apt term.

blag · 13-10-2014 3:34pm

wes wrote: »

Yes, and seeing we were referring to sexual content, I taught it the most apt term.

Fair enough.

tailgunner · 13-10-2014 3:41pm

I don't really get the "fan service" argument either. Who are the fans in this context? Adolescent males? I can't imagine many teenage boys own a Wii U, so I'm not sure who they're trying to appeal to.

To be fair though, it's only been one reviewer who has been particularly critical of this, so hopefully it all fits within a game that is fairly absurd on many other levels as well.

gizmo · 13-10-2014 3:44pm

Wait, what? Did fan service always mean this?

If that's the case then apologies, wes. My above argument was made in the context of fan service being "material in a series which is intentionally added to please the audience" in the general sense, not specifically the "gratuitous titillation" one.

blag · 13-10-2014 3:53pm

gizmo wrote: »

Wait, what? Did fan service always mean this?

.

I hope it didn't always mean that, I've recommended Hyrule Warriors on the basis of great fan service, god only knows what they're expecting.....:pac:

Bayonetta 2

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