Ireland to go down the Electric car route?

spank_inferno · 22-07-2009 2:59pm

My rough calculation for an underpowerd 1.4ltr petrol car. it would cost me about €635 to do 10,000 kms

quite a difference for sure.

But If I just keep my existing car, I save many thousands from not purchasing a battery operated car in the first place.

And the world saves on the considerable amount of energy, carbon, steel, oil/plastic, lithium that would go into making the new battery operated car and disposing of my old car.

so, fine for some, but not for me.

Oh and a unit of energy is actualy 14.55 cent not 7 cent as mentioned above.
1380 kw/hours actualy costs €227 incl vat @ 13.5% if your on the standard.
I dont have the nightsaver and I reckon most people done either.

gpjordanf1 · 22-07-2009 3:52pm

We aren't too far away from electric cars going mainstream, all it will take is a major manufacturer, making a nice design at an affordable price. Now alot of people say this will be impossible but i think it can be done.

1) electricity is everywhere.

2)charging can be done in half hour or under to suit most drivers at specialised stations.

3)CO2 emissions are greatly reduced

4)most people drive to work so can charge their cars if needed, even using longer charge times, same with going doing the shopping or going to town. Coin operated stations like parking stations could be easily installed. Simple.

5)the range of electric cars will need to be in the 300km+ range to satisfy most people, they are not far off that now.

6) oil is going to get more expensive, end of argument, in a couple of years we'll be paying 2 euro a litre and more going forward. Can you afford that? I cant!

cianof · 22-07-2009 4:07pm

There's also the service costs to consider.

With the fossil fuel car you have to factor in the cost (both time & money) of oil, filters, timing belts... etc....+ the labor cost to do those jobs.

I did say urban nightsaver in my previous post because I reckon those who will chose to drive electric cars will also charge their cars at night, because it will make financial sense given their energy requirements.

I forgot to include the 13.5% vat, so figure for the Reva should be €120.56 per 10,000km not €106.22.

robtri · 22-07-2009 4:12pm

gpjordanf1 wrote: »

We aren't too far away from electric cars going mainstream, all it will take is a major manufacturer, making a nice design at an affordable price. Now alot of people say this will be impossible but i think it can be done.

Yes it can be done, but it is still a few years away......

gpjordanf1 wrote: »

1) electricity is everywhere.

so is petrol and diesel....

gpjordanf1 wrote: »

2)charging can be done in half hour or under to suit most drivers at specialised stations.

not on any currently available , reasonably affordable electric car....

gpjordanf1 wrote: »

3)CO2 emissions are greatly reduced

they are reduced but I wouldn't say greatly considering where the electricity in this country is generated from.

gpjordanf1 wrote: »

4)most people drive to work so can charge their cars if needed, even using longer charge times, same with going doing the shopping or going to town. Coin operated stations like parking stations could be easily installed. Simple.

Simple.... are you serious, nothing further from the truth, there is nothing simple about setting up a whole new infrastructure around the country to support this..
this is a very impractical and expensive solution, and the cost of this would be passed to the consumer.

gpjordanf1 wrote: »

5)the range of electric cars will need to be in the 300km+ range to satisfy most people, they are not far off that now.

they aren't and some very expensive ones exceed that greatly...
but they here yet at an affordable solution price.
Renault.... big car company.... in 2 years are looking to bring out the berlingo EV... see posts previously.... in two years they estimate the realistic driving range will only be 160KM.....
I am open to correction on this but there is no currently available sub €30,000 ev car now in will be ready in the next two years that will have a realistic range of over 300KM....

gpjordanf1 wrote: »

6) oil is going to get more expensive, end of argument, in a couple of years we'll be paying 2 euro a litre and more going forward. Can you afford that? I cant!

nope I can't, but considering our electricity here is generated mainly by fossil fuel, any rise in the fossil fuel commodity market will see a sharp rise in the price of electricity as well.....

I want to see electric cars, I want one myself... but till there is a practical overall solution in place, people will continue to drive normal fossil fuel engined cars

robtri · 22-07-2009 4:16pm

cianof wrote: »

There's also the service costs to consider.

With the fossil fuel car you have to factor in the cost (both time & money) of oil, filters, timing belts... etc....+ the labor cost to do those jobs.

I did say urban nightsaver in my previous post because I reckon those who will chose to drive electric cars will also charge their cars at night, because it will make financial sense given their energy requirements.

I forgot to include the 13.5% vat, so figure for the Reva should be €120.56 per 10,000km not €106.22.

And the Tesla ev car has a $1000.00 a year service cost..... my petrol engined car is cheaper than that to service.....

and as I said previously, what about the associated costs of long journeys where the REVA is not prctical, i.e weekend trip to cork, going for a game of Golf in killarney, bring visitors on a trip around the ring of kerry, all the other things people do with there cars besides go to work and home....
please add that cost into the running of it...

ohhh and how long do you think you would get Urban nightsaver for, if everybody was using electricity at night to charge cars...
not long, so I would say double that re-charge cost...

gpjordanf1 · 22-07-2009 4:23pm

robtri wrote: »

And the Tesla ev car has a $1000.00 a year service cost..... my petrol engined car is cheaper than that to service.....

and as I said previously, what about the associated costs of long journeys where the REVA is not prctical, i.e weekend trip to cork, going for a game of Golf in killarney, bring visitors on a trip around the ring of kerry, all the other things people do with there cars besides go to work and home....
please add that cost into the running of it...

ohhh and how long do you think you would get Urban nightsaver for, if everybody was using electricity at night to charge cars...
not long, so I would say double that re-charge cost...

the tesla is a high end sports car, what's the servicing costs of a lambo or ferrari in comparison? The servicing costs of the GM EV1 was practically zero, just tires really. Thats the difference, why dont you check out tesla's family car coming out next year, big difference, ya could even go to kerry if ya wanted and play golf!

robtri · 22-07-2009 4:35pm

gpjordanf1 wrote: »

the tesla is a high end sports car, what's the servicing costs of a lambo or ferrari in comparison? The servicing costs of the GM EV1 was practically zero, just tires really. Thats the difference, why dont you check out tesla's family car coming out next year, big difference, ya could even go to kerry if ya wanted and play golf!

The servicing costs for the GM EV1 are not available as the services where covered in the lease agreement, but they still did need a service.....

Tesla new family car is fantastic....

Few issues:

1. Cost is out of reach of most families ... $50,000 so any savings on fuel tax ect are lost in the cost over a normal family car here....

2. Range is 275km... brilliant.. I love it

3. Charge time is 4 hours.... or 45mins for a quick charge...quick cahrge reduces range hugely.... not practical for the trips to cork or killarney
for my golf outing

4. and it is still over two years away before it will be made available to buy anywhere... end of quater 4 is planned launch date for California...

Not very practical for NOW is it

cianof · 22-07-2009 4:42pm

Do you reckon that's a fair comparison....comparing the service costs of a €100,000 electric sports car costs with your petrol car?

I reckon almost any car costing €100,000 will have a fairly expensive service cost.

Sure battery electric cars don't/won't suite everyone. If they suite your driving pattern they can make a lot of sense.

robtri, would you consider driving a hybrid.... or a plug in hybrid when they come out?

Blitzkrieger · 22-07-2009 6:10pm

sparklepants wrote: »

Even using electricity from fossil fuels electric cars are more efficient and better for the environment than IC engines. You can produce electricity at around 55% efficiency using gas, compared to an efficiency of maybe 20% for a petrol engine.

You must be joking - what about the enviornmental impact of all those batteries?

Hydrogen fuel cell ftw.....

cianof · 22-07-2009 6:24pm

Blitzkrieger,

You do know that batteries can be recycled?

Hydrogen fuel cell cars have batteries too remember. They are in fact a type of battery electric vehicle.

The fuel cell uses the hydrogen to make the electricity, to charge the battery, which provides the juice to run the motor.

The problem is, as yet, there's no efficient method to generate hydrogen. It required far more energy to make than it delivers.

cianof · 22-07-2009 6:32pm

There was a new more efficient method of producing hydrogen announced recently, but I'm not sure it will catch on....

http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/News/2009/July/02070902.asp

cianof · 22-07-2009 6:58pm

The survey and title on this thread are misleading.

TITLE
Ireland to go down the Electric car route?
Most people would probably agree that some electric cars are a good idea.

That's what the gov are proposing. The Government wants 250,000 cars and vans - or 10% of the national fleet - to be electric within a decade.

Given current developments. That seems fair enough.

SURVEY
"An all Electric car Ireland?"
That's daft.....no one has actually suggested that.

towel401 · 22-07-2009 9:23pm

cianof wrote: »

Blitzkrieger,

You do know that batteries can be recycled?

Hydrogen fuel cell cars have batteries too remember. They are in fact a type of battery electric vehicle.

The fuel cell uses the hydrogen to make the electricity, to charge the battery, which provides the juice to run the motor.

The problem is, as yet, there's no efficient method to generate hydrogen. It required far more energy to make than it delivers.

BMW Hydrogen7

burn the hydrogen directly

Johnny Utah · 22-07-2009 9:33pm

robtri wrote: »

And the Tesla ev car has a $1000.00 a year service cost..... my petrol engined car is cheaper than that to service.....

and as I said previously, what about the associated costs of long journeys where the REVA is not prctical, i.e weekend trip to cork, going for a game of Golf in killarney, bring visitors on a trip around the ring of kerry, all the other things people do with there cars besides go to work and home....
please add that cost into the running of it...

ohhh and how long do you think you would get Urban nightsaver for, if everybody was using electricity at night to charge cars...
not long, so I would say double that re-charge cost...

Oh God, you would have to re-charge the car in every town & village you passed along the way. It would turn into an epic 3-day journey, and you would end up staying the night in "Moll's Gap" while the car re-charged for the final leg!

cianof · 22-07-2009 9:49pm

BMW Hydrogen7 burn the hydrogen directly

BMW Hydrogen 7

What a joke!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_Hydrogen_7

60 L/100 km

60L of compressed hydrogen per 100km traveled. Seriously, that's never going to happen.

If you think the BMW Hydrogen 7 is a break through, check this out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qM325S_3TI

towel401 · 23-07-2009 12:54am

cianof wrote: »

BMW Hydrogen 7

What a joke!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_Hydrogen_7

60 L/100 km

60L of compressed hydrogen per 100km traveled. Seriously, that's never going to happen.

If you think the BMW Hydrogen 7 is a break through, check this out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qM325S_3TI

I don't care, i'll still buy one if i had the cash

and its 50L not 60. compressed hydrogen has far less energy in it than petrol. so be it

JHMEG · 23-07-2009 12:59am

cianof wrote: »

BMW Hydrogen 7

What a joke!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_Hydrogen_7

60 L/100 km

60L of compressed hydrogen per 100km traveled. Seriously, that's never going to happen.

I noticed that too... 4.7 miles per gallon! Versus 81 mpg for the fuel cell powered FCX.

Fortunately BMW only made 100 of the damn things!

robtri · 23-07-2009 8:50am

cianof wrote: »

Do you reckon that's a fair comparison....comparing the service costs of a €100,000 electric sports car costs with your petrol car?

No I don't think its fair, BUT it is the only service cost of an EV I could find... ea lot of people here are under the belief that EV are service free, they aren't.. just point this out...
Also the Tesla roadster is a LOTUS ELISE, its only a €100K because of the costly batteries and charging devices, so its not too far off being a reasonable comparison....

cianof wrote: »

I reckon almost any car costing €100,000 will have a fairly expensive service cost.

as above.....

cianof wrote: »

Sure battery electric cars don't/won't suite everyone. If they suite your driving pattern they can make a lot of sense.

absolutely agree, but the way I see it, currently hte vast majority of people with petrol/diesel cars takes them on drives over the range of current EV cars at least once a year....
so until EV cars can get over this hump, the re-charge time hump, then IMHO they will never succeed...

cianof wrote: »

robtri, would you consider driving a hybrid.... or a plug in hybrid when they come out?

A hybrid .... NO, waste of money and not ECO friendly.. at all, rummor has it that the Hummer, is more enviromentaly friendly over the course of its life than some current hybrids....

a Plug in Hybrid, yes I would consider one.....

And I will take your questions further....

An EV car...... when certain criteria are met.... Hell yes....
I am actually trying to persuade work to buy an EV car/van for travelling between buildings and moving equipment between buildings

Johnny Utah wrote: »

Oh God, you would have to re-charge the car in every town & village you passed along the way. It would turn into an epic 3-day journey, and you would end up staying the night in "Moll's Gap" while the car re-charged for the final leg!

THANK YOU!! at last some on on this thread who see's the shortcomings of the EV motor as it stands today

Mr Benevolent · 23-07-2009 9:56am

THANK YOU!! at last some on on this thread who see's the shortcomings of the EV motor as it stands today

Most of you are missing one obvious point. People who drive long distances every week/month will not buy an electric car. EV's aren't going to be mandatory, folks! They're really for city driving only and they'll stay that way for maybe 10 years. So there's no need to worry about range.

From a government standpoint, the EV would be a revenue disaster. How are they going to levy car tax and VRT? VRT especially would be a flat rate - no more sliding scale. What about VAT receipts from garage that deal with them? Less maintenance, less money paid, less VAT. VAT receipts on fuel would suffer horribly as well. Increasing the price of electricity won't be any option because everyone uses it and besides, electricity is far cheaper than petrol per km anyway. What it is a government realistically going to care more about? CO2 emissions or income streams? Again it's obvious.

Let's be honest here. The government hasn't seriously thought this through. Look what happened to VRT once they went to CO2 emissions. It was so obvious that individual car emissions would go down, bringing VRT receipts down with it. The idiots must've thought they were running Dubai or something.

I'm all in favour of the electric car, but the Irish government is stupid and will crush this movement as soon as they figure out the consequences. Then again, they didn't figure out the VRT thing in time...

spank_inferno · 23-07-2009 10:01am

But with the Eco-Nazis in power who is to say that it wouldnt be compulsory?

I've no problem with going electric, so long as its my choice.

cianof · 23-07-2009 10:04am

Right now there's %0 VRT on electric vehicles. That will be in place until end of 2010 at least.

I'm not sure how they will balance the books. Perhaps they plan to offset against carbon credits.

cianof · 23-07-2009 10:54am

This 1/10 electric car plan is all related to the governments plans for energy independence.

Eddie Hobbs made some goods point on the issue back in May.

http://www.eddiehobbs.com/_bpost_1462/Energy_independence

Oil is 64.44 dollars a barrel today, and that's in the middle of a recession. Just imagine what the price will be when things start picking up again.

nicksinthemix · 14-08-2009 11:41am

The issues surrounding VRT and fuel taxes need a bit of outside the box thinking. It's actually not like the Russian empire a hundred years ago that generated a third of its tax from duty on vodka. In the middle of a war (before WWI I think) they went into prohibition and ruined themselves.

Transport electrification is a lot more complicated. Think about our current energy cycle:

import fuel --> combust fuel --> emit gasses into atmosphere

This is liniar and it doesn't involve much activity from an Irish economic perspective. As a result, the government tacks on taxes to each stage of the chain. And this makes complete sense because the national economic role is to buy and burn. If there were no taxes on this process, then money would just be leaving the country.

Now, a heavily electrified transport network looks different. Assuming that the drive towards renewables and domestic power genberation gets enhanced, then this becomes more of a closed loop:

generate power --> charge -->discharge or feed back into grid

The vehicles that use the power will still be imported, but the energy to propel them comes from a national effort and as such, taxing it as a source of revenue doesn't make sense. You'd just be moving funds from one sector of the economy to another and in many cases, from one government office to another.

Of course, much of this depends on not having to import fuel for the power stations. Then you close the loop completely but the ESB is aiming for this by 2035. At this point, there'll be less reason to get a kind of economic rub-off from a given activity (i.e. driving) because it doesn't just funnel money out of the country.

That's what I mean by looking at this one 'out of the box'.

kleefarr · 18-02-2010 9:47pm

230,000 Electric cars by 2020.

http://breakingnews.iol.ie/news/ireland/esb-230000-vehicles-to-be-electric-by-2020-446789.html

Will our renewable electricity sources be able to cope?

I doubt it.

cianof · 18-02-2010 11:06pm

That's great news.

Why so doubtful?

230,000 won't all be charging at the same time.

Maybe once every 4 nights (100miles per charge).
20 kwh hours per car. ( €1.80 on nightsaver)

Check out the Robert Llewellyn Mitsubishi iMiev videos.
http://green.autoblog.com/2010/02/17/video-robert-llewellyn-launching-gearless-new-ev-centric-serie/

Looking forward to being able to buy one of those.

Cionád · 18-02-2010 11:12pm

Build a nuclear plant and we'll be sorted with plentiful clean energy

... just put the waste in the Irish Sea, can't get much worse

Heroditas · 19-02-2010 12:08am

kleefarr wrote: »

230,000 Electric cars by 2020.

http://breakingnews.iol.ie/news/ireland/esb-230000-vehicles-to-be-electric-by-2020-446789.html

Will our renewable electricity sources be able to cope?

I doubt it.

More to the point, electric vehicle production worldwide will have to ramp up markedly if we're going to see 230,000 electric vehicles on the road here within ten years.

galwaytt · 19-02-2010 12:22am

kleefarr wrote: »

230,000 Electric cars by 2020.

http://breakingnews.iol.ie/news/ireland/esb-230000-vehicles-to-be-electric-by-2020-446789.html

Will our renewable electricity sources be able to cope?

I doubt it.

Never going to happen. Either part of your statement.......

cianof · 19-02-2010 12:39am

Businesses can claim back 100% of the purchase cost of EVs via the accelerated capital allowance scheme.

http://www.sei.ie/Your_Business/Accelerated_Capital_Allowance/

There's 0% VRT on electric cars.

Most of the major car companies are developing electric cars.

http://www.audi.com/com/brand/en/experience/audi_e-tron.html

10 Years is a long time.

Looking forward to see what happens

Atlantic Dawn · 19-02-2010 1:14am

To my knowledge there's not currently 1 recharge point in the whole of Dublin, the Greens will also be decimated at the next elections, the dominance of the electric car is a long long way away in this country

Ireland to go down the Electric car route?

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