[manofwisdom]

Originally Posted by Cosmo Kramer

Have to say I've never got the fuss about Senan Kilbride. Not at the highest level anyway. His non-involvement in the game was about the least surprising thing about the whole match. He has never done anything much against Mayo. Would he even make the current Mayo panel?

I thought Roscommon came with a game plan and gave it a good go for 20 minutes. After that I think they knew themselves they weren't going to win. I don't think they could have done much more, that's just where they are at in terms of ability relative to Mayo. If they played the game every day for the next week I'd expect a similar outcome each time.

Kilbride is clearly a confidence player and to get the best out of him at county level i feel he needs to be playing on confident team and one that wins more often than Roscommon. The current Mayo team would certainly get the best out of him.

You are right Roscommon came with good game plan was 3-2 after 20 minutes? however for some reason they just stopped using that game plan that was working and the rest of the game it was stroll for Mayo.

[Citycap]

I think people will have to get real as regards what their individual counties can achieve.

As regards Roscommon, a county which I have great time for, they will have to look at their resources.

1. Compare the number of senior players they have versus those counties that are in the top 10 at present. Roscommon need all available players and can't afford to lose players because of personality differences, inter club rows etc. I think it is fair to say that if Ross had the St Bridgets players that they would have been promoted to Div.2. To begin progressing they really need to be at least Div 2 standard and holding their own there.

2. Finances. It is a small population with no major industry or business concern to step in as sponsor. The cost of running county teams has gone out of all kilter. Is there a need for all the background personnel? Tyrone, Donegal etc will say there is.

Despite resources every generation Roscommon produce players that are worth going to see. The great Dermot Earley, Junior McManus, Frankie Dolan, Donie Shine etc. I suppose the problem is that they don't produce enough to make a good panel.

Roscommon went on a few years ago to win a minor all Ireland beating Galway, Meath and Kerry on the way. If they can do it once they clearly have the potential to do it again.
Wexford went to an All Ireland semi through the backdoor in 2008?. If Ross can raise their standard to Division 2 league there is no reason why they can't see that type of progression. In short get promoted and put all effort into playing in Croke Park in August either by winning Connacht or by the qualifier. Once you have a pattern of August football its only a matter of kicking on to semis and hopefully finals.

[Cosmo Kramer]

I don't think Roscommon necessarily should look to Division two as a route to better competition. The standard in 2 might actually (strangely) be worse than the standard in 3 at the moment. If Ros go up next year it is likely that the two Division 1 teams dropping down (Donegal and Down) will have gone back up again by then with Westmeath almost certainly making a quick return to the second tier.

[Syferus]

Originally Posted by Cosmo Kramer

I'm not judging him on one game Syferus. Not trying to assassinate his character or anything like that, just giving my view on his footballing ability - I don't think he is anything like as good as he is made out to be. I had formed that opinion long before today. Has a habit of going missing against better teams. I do accept your point though that it was harder for him to look good today in the circumstances - but I think a real top class forward, someone like Emlyn Mulligan or a fully fit Donie Shine, two players who I really rate, would still have managed to stand out regardless.

The only 'top teams' Kilbride has faced any time recently by virtue of our league position and his injuries pre-2010 have been Mayo 2011 (and at that point calling them that would have been a severe overstatement) where he was spear tackled to the ground on his shoulder by a Mayo player and had to get pain-killing injections at half-time just to play on and Tyrone 2011, while playing with server bruising from the same injury, in which he played exceptionally well.

He was more instrumental to our only good performance of 2012, beating Armagh than Donie but because Donie took the frees his stat sheet looks better for anyone looking back at the match on paper.

Make no mistake, we have a lot of inconsistent players but singling out Kilbride as someone who 'goes missing' against bigger teams shows a lack of knowledge of the player and indeed the performances of others around in him those same games.

Kilbride has a laid-back style of playing the game and that is what I think is at the root of the few complaints I've heard about him. He doesn't look like he's working hard or that he doesn't care but nothing could be further from the truth.

It's all about system and conditioning. We're not there on either count right now and we'll never be able to fully utilise the talent we have until we do.

[Cosmo Kramer]

Originally Posted by Syferus

It's all about system and conditioning. We're not there on either count right now and we'll never be able to fully utilise the talent we have until we do.

We'll have to agree to disagree on Kilbride. The reason I single him out is because he is a player who is consistently singled out by followers of Ros as a star man. Once that happens he is judged by higher standards - as I said earlier, that's not his fault.

Obviously system and conditioning had a role to play yesterday. However there needs to be a realisation that there is a gap in natural ability and skill levels between the two teams also at present, both in the starting 15 and in terms if strength in depth.

[Strongbow10]

Originally Posted by Cosmo Kramer

We'll have to agree to disagree on Kilbride. The reason I single him out is because he is a player who is consistently singled out by followers of Ros as a star man. Once that happens he is judged by higher standards - as I said earlier, that's not his fault.

Obviously system and conditioning had a role to play yesterday. However there needs to be a realisation that there is a gap in natural ability and skill levels between the two teams also at present, both in the starting 15 and in terms if strength in depth.

Could not agree more. Theres this underlying belief that Roscommon have supreme talent at underage level.

The nature of GAA allows this skewed view to be prominent. Connacht football is pure crap at Senior level. Thats a fact and anyone disputing that hasn't got a clue.

There are countless Minor/Under 21 prodigees who have not cut the mustard at Senior level. Its not a foregone conclusion that we would win titles with strength and conditioning facilities. Its not going to happen either, the county is not going to cripple itself financially.

Theres alot more missing than a lack of strength and conditioning facilities. It seems every manager takes the slack for the group of players we have. Some of them are just simply not up to the task, and never will be unfortunately.

You can have all the strength and conditioning but if you cannot do the basics correctly then you are in trouble from the start. Mental strength has been a massive problem at senior level for a decade or more.

Dare I say it, the last connacht title win was an exception to the rule rather than a sign of things to come, given the fact we got as handy a draw as we could have hoped for.

Another thing that seems to be pushed is the fact that alot of our lads have Sigerson Cup experience. That also means damn all when it comes to playing Senior Inter county football. It means NOTHING.

[nice_guy80]

Originally Posted by Strongbow10

Could not agree more. Theres this underlying belief that Roscommon have supreme talent at underage level.

The nature of GAA allows this skewed view to be prominent. Connacht football is pure crap at Senior level. Thats a fact and anyone disputing that hasn't got a clue.

There are countless Minor/Under 21 prodigees who have not cut the mustard at Senior level. Its not a foregone conclusion that we would win titles with strength and conditioning facilities. Its not going to happen either, the county is not going to cripple itself financially.

Theres alot more missing than a lack of strength and conditioning facilities. It seems every manager takes the slack for the group of players we have. Some of them are just simply not up to the task, and never will be unfortunately.

You can have all the strength and conditioning but if you cannot do the basics correctly then you are in trouble from the start. Mental strength has been a massive problem at senior level for a decade or more.

Dare I say it, the last connacht title win was an exception to the rule rather than a sign of things to come, given the fact we got as handy a draw as we could have hoped for.

Another thing that seems to be pushed is the fact that alot of our lads have Sigerson Cup experience. That also means damn all when it comes to playing Senior Inter county football. It means NOTHING.

Roscommon got within 2 points in 2011
what has changed since?
Roscommon have stayed at same level or gone backwards
while Mayo have pushed on and undergone huge development

[Syferus]

Lack of talent is the laziest excuse any pundit or poster can throw up, it really is up there with Spillane's greatest hits whn it comes to making a worthwhile point.

We have talented footballers. That doesn't mean they are great seniors. The problem has been and continues to be how do you take a lad who can beat his contemporaries at every grade coming up and suddenly at senior the script changes?

It'sa because money plays a bigger role, it's because getting the same level of dedication and expertise needed to compete is harder to find and get out of men in their mid-to-late twenties with jobs and families and God knows what else than it is to train teenagers with loads of free time and few responsibilities a couple times a week.

The demands on players, the cost to prepare them, the level of coaching, facilities and conditioning knowledge increases by magnitudes. It's the reason you see so many players opting to spend summers in the States and retiring early, the sheer effort it takes to be essentially an amateur professional athlete is beyond massive.

Underage success is a start but no one has said it's a silver bullet. Galway wasted two U21 AI winning teams, Mayo were in danger of doing similar, Armagh have had little up-tick from their successful minor teams. The reverse is true as well; Dublin, Cavan, Cork and Tyrone have improved their senior stock to differing degrees on the back of underage success and development. Indeed even we were in a better place now than we were when essentially started over in 2009. What it tells you is you have players that have the potential to compete at a high level. It's your responsibility to get them there as much as it is their's.

Talking about lack of talent or one county's players being of some bizarre superior breed may sound good in your heads but it really is the most hollow argument anyone could ever make and it adds absolutely towards what actually needs to be done to improve.

[wow sierra]

Originally Posted by nice_guy80

Roscommon got within 2 points in 2011
what has changed since?
Roscommon have stayed at same level or gone backwards
while Mayo have pushed on and undergone huge development

I think Roscommon are about at the same level as 2011 or slightly better and Mayo are a lot better BUT.... and it's a huge but - I was at that game in 2011 and it was a shocking affair on an awful day. Roscommon were not on a level with Mayo then, any more than Sligo were last year when they also were only beaten by 2 points.

As for Roscommon in 2013 they were unlucky/sloppy in the League and would have got promoted if they hadn't conceded the last minute goal against Wicklow. They were only beaten by Meath and Fermanagh and the Meath game had two very dodgy goals also. But results are what counts and Roscommon came up short. It's a pity because they would improve in Div 2. A good run in the qualifiers would be good - they won't meet a better team than Mayo this year anyway - unless we get to a quarter final

[naughto]

where were all the talented footballers that you all call them on sunday Syferus if that was the best roscommon could do,no amount off money would help them.
you county board would would want to be ran out of roscommon,the state the ground is in is a disgrace to any one envolveld in roscommon football.
how they let it get so bad is beyound me.
is there no one in charge or does no one give a fu1ck about it.

a lot of posts are on about mayo being in 11 million in debt and yet they can still go to miami to winter training.i think its great that they can do this yes they are up to eyelids in debt but iam sure they have a number of yrs to pay it back.if they can get 20,000 in to machlae park for a simi final,iam sure that helped to pay the loan,as well as the number of league games that they had at home this yr.

[wow sierra]

Originally Posted by naughto

where were all the talented footballers that you all call them on sunday Syferus if that was the best roscommon could do,no amount off money would help them.
you county board would would want to be ran out of roscommon,the state the ground is in is a disgrace to any one envolveld in roscommon football.
how they let it get so bad is beyound me.
is there no one in charge or does no one give a fu1ck about it.

a lot of posts are on about mayo being in 11 million in debt and yet they can still go to miami to winter training.i think its great that they can do this yes they are up to eyelids in debt but iam sure they have a number of yrs to pay it back.if they can get 20,000 in to machlae park for a simi final,iam sure that helped to pay the loan,as well as the number of league games that they had at home this yr.

County ground is shared with a club at the moment and until the status of the ground is sorted out they can't get funding to improve it. The situation is being sorted out at the moment and it should improve. Roscommon have a tiny population and have been hit very heavily by the recession - as have many of the weaker counties in GAA. It is causing the gap to expand.The size and population of Mayo and the money available is huge compared with Roscommon. The big guns in Connaught GAA are also trying to keep the money spinning games in Galway and Mayo and they are getting their way - hopefully if the Hyde gets sorted out it will improve things. The 20k attendance on Sunday is a testament to the loyal GAA fans in Roscommon and Mayo and shows how important the Connaught championship is to the fans - even yesterday when the result was a foregone conclusion.

[blowitupref]

Originally Posted by Cosmo Kramer

We'll have to agree to disagree on Kilbride. The reason I single him out is because he is a player who is consistently singled out by followers of Ros as a star man. Once that happens he is judged by higher standards - as I said earlier, that's not his fault.

Obviously system and conditioning had a role to play yesterday. However there needs to be a realisation that there is a gap in natural ability and skill levels between the two teams also at present, both in the starting 15 and in terms if strength in depth.

Strength and conditioning is the big difference between the sides and the workrate throughout the Mayo team is something Roscommon need to look at because i think they have plenty of natural ability themselves it's just a matter on working on it and putting the right system in place.

[Cosmo Kramer]

Originally Posted by Syferus

Talking about lack of talent or one county's players being of some bizarre superior breed may sound good in your heads but it really is the most hollow argument anyone could ever make and it adds absolutely towards what actually needs to be done to improve.

Now that I agree with. I'm not saying that Mayo people are somehow more naturally born talented footballers than Roscommon or any other county - of course they're not. But what you are basically saying is that all teams are equal and it's only how you condition yourself and set up that matters. That's obviously not the case.

At the moment the Mayo panel has more talent in it than most counties, Roscommon included. That hasn't always been the case (take the 1970s as a case in point - we were ****e, you were excellent) and it won't always be the case, but it's the way things are at the moment. Conditioning and game plan will only get you so far, natural ability is needed to get to the very top. Mayo have plenty of it right now, but we don't know yet if we have enough. We have a 3-4 year window now to make it happen with the players we have, hopefully we can do it. Unfortunately you don't have enough of that at the moment and you need to realise that - but that's not to say that will always be the case. I'm sure there will be times to come when the shoe is on the other foot, but right now this is just the way things are.