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Flat rate Single Farm Payment

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    #32
    Min
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    Tipp Man wrote: »
    I fail to see why a larger farmer shouldn't get a larger SFP than a smaller farmer - it should all be in proportion. you hardly expect a fella with 20 cattle to get as big a SFP as a fella with 200 cattle

    A larger farmer will be getting more anyway with the per acre system

    All this bitching and moaning about "the bigger fellas with bigger SFP" strikes me a bit of jealousy and envy to be honest. We have a good SFP but there are fellas around us getting more because they had more cattle or tillage or whatever. Good luck to them and i hope they keep as much of it as is possible going forward

    I don't think it is jealously as the bigger farmer still gets more.

    The SFP is based on history and that is where it belongs and we need a new system.


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    #33
    theaceofspies
    Registered Users Posts: 577 ✭✭✭theaceofspies


    Personally I'm jealous of the bigger farmers... they are bigger for a reason and deserve it. The issue is the IFA basing it's agenda on certain members and not treating all members equally.


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    #34
    theaceofspies
    Registered Users Posts: 577 ✭✭✭theaceofspies


    That should read NOT ealous... ooops!
    Freudian slip!
    But you get the drift!


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    #35
    flatout11
    Registered Users Posts: 609 ✭✭✭flatout11


    Min wrote: »
    The SFP is based on history and that is where it belongs and we need a new system.
    I agree the old system didnt work .. farming for payments but there should be no link to historic payments, what relavance does what a fella kept 10 years ago to what he is entitled to now..... also very hard to justify in the publics eyes,
    the problem is there is no 'perfect' option part flat rate part coupled seemed like a good option but i cant see them going back to payments that would encourage production :rolleyes:


    Any idea what the greening measures are? its a very broad term which given recent devolopments (possible planning permission for drainage etc..) sounds like something john gormley would enjoy


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    #36
    rancher
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,142 ✭✭✭rancher


    Min wrote: »
    The IFA should support it, over 200,000 hectares have any payments on it and this will now be eligible for payment under the new system.

    I don't care if those who got larger payments gets less.
    As I write I'm looking out at a farm covered with ragworth, stocked at 1lu per 2 ha belonging to a developer.... should IFA be lobbying for an sfp for this farm!!!!!


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    #37
    Tipp Man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,025 ✭✭✭Tipp Man


    theaceofspies wrote: »
    That should read NOT ealous... ooops!
    Freudian slip!
    But you get the drift!

    where did the IFA say anything in that press release which even remotely resembles looking after the interests of the larger farmer??

    It clearly states that the movement to an area based system would lead to large looses in payments to farmers - it says nothing about large farmers or small farmers and neither of those 2 phrases are used

    I think you need to read that press release again


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    #38
    Tipp Man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,025 ✭✭✭Tipp Man


    Min wrote: »
    I don't think it is jealously as the bigger farmer still gets more.

    The SFP is based on history and that is where it belongs and we need a new system.

    I'm not saying we don't need a new system but the post i responded too was pure crap to be honest.


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    #39
    Birdnuts
    Registered Users Posts: 9,632 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    Tipp Man wrote: »
    I fail to see why a larger farmer shouldn't get a larger SFP than a smaller farmer - it should all be in proportion. you hardly expect a fella with 20 cattle to get as big a SFP as a fella with 200 cattle

    A larger farmer will be getting more anyway with the per acre system

    All this bitching and moaning about "the bigger fellas with bigger SFP" strikes me a bit of jealousy and envy to be honest. We have a good SFP but there are fellas around us getting more because they had more cattle or tillage or whatever. Good luck to them and i hope they keep as much of it as is possible going forward


    Thats all well and good until you see the massive SFP payments going to some of the country's richest business men and big corporations. This kind of thing doesn't exactly shine a positive light on the whole CAP among the general public - both in Ireland and across Europe. At the end of the day farming will have to fight for its share of the EU budget like any other sector and if its seen that most of the money is going to a few "fat cats", then the possibity of safe-guarding SFP's for all farmers will be put at grave risk going forward:(


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    #40
    Tipp Man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,025 ✭✭✭Tipp Man


    Birdnuts wrote: »
    Thats all well and good until you see the massive SFP payments going to some of the country's richest business men and big corporations. This kind of thing doesn't exactly shine a positive light on the whole CAP among the general public - both in Ireland and across Europe. At the end of the day farming will have to fight for its share of the EU budget like any other sector and if its seen that most of the money is going to a few "fat cats", then the possibity of safe-guarding SFP's for all farmers will be put at grave risk going forward:(

    If the proposals go through as has been outlined in this thread then there won't be a full time beef farmer left in this country in the next few years.

    Have you seen the ridiculously small margins that are out of beef at the moment? How anybody thinks that this will be a good thing for Irish farming is beyond me

    Like i said too many people worried about what the big farmer down the road or Larry Goodman is getting and not realising that they will also loose out

    70 Euro a hectare is pittence - if that is the rate then it will wipe out smaller farmers not protect them - how can that be good for Irish farmers or Ireland as a whole??


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    #41
    theaceofspies
    Registered Users Posts: 577 ✭✭✭theaceofspies


    My understanding is that the CAP Budget or "Pie" is the same as what was received up to now. It's how the pie is divided is what is at stake. Last time round a few farmers got a big chunk of the pie thanks to having high stock rates back during the intial Reference period. This is all still up in the air however as the report in the Farmers Journal should be taken with a pinch of salt until we see the final agreement. Contrary to appearances this is a more a politicial matter than a farming matter and we all know the amount of spin in the field of politics.


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    #42
    Birdnuts
    Registered Users Posts: 9,632 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    Tipp Man wrote: »
    If the proposals go through as has been outlined in this thread then there won't be a full time beef farmer left in this country in the next few years.

    Have you seen the ridiculously small margins that are out of beef at the moment? How anybody thinks that this will be a good thing for Irish farming is beyond me

    Like i said too many people worried about what the big farmer down the road or Larry Goodman is getting and not realising that they will also loose out

    70 Euro a hectare is pittence - if that is the rate then it will wipe out smaller farmers not protect them - how can that be good for Irish farmers or Ireland as a whole??

    The devil will be in the detail TM and its a hope I have(maybe a forlorn one!!) that the government in their wisdom will structure such funding in a way to extract the maximum benefit for the largest number of farmers as possbile, while at the same time benefiting other rural enterpsizes that are shaped by the industry. All I know for sure is that the current state of play is unsustaineable, destructive and grossly unfair for the majority of small to medium family farms.:(


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    #43
    Tipp Man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,025 ✭✭✭Tipp Man


    theaceofspies wrote: »
    My understanding is that the CAP Budget or "Pie" is the same as what was received up to now. It's how the pie is divided is what is at stake. Last time round a few farmers got a big chunk of the pie thanks to having high stock rates back during the intial Reference period. This is all still up in the air however as the report in the Farmers Journal should be taken with a pinch of salt until we see the final agreement. Contrary to appearances this is a more a politicial matter than a farming matter and we all know the amount of spin in the field of politics.


    Don't be surprised if a huge amount of money that used to go to farmers goes to other rural activities - the pie might be similar but farmers are going to see less of it


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    #44
    whelan1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,786 ✭✭✭✭whelan1


    this might be going off on a totally different tangent but at the minute agriculture is one of the best preforming industries in the country , what are the government doing to promote it?


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    #45
    Tipp Man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,025 ✭✭✭Tipp Man


    Birdnuts wrote: »
    The devil will be in the detail TM and its a hope I have(maybe a forlorn one!!) that the government in their wisdom will structure such funding in a way to extract the maximum benefit for the largest number of farmers as possbile, while at the same time benefiting other rural enterpsizes that are shaped by the industry. All I know for sure is that the current state of play is unsustaineable, destructive and grossly unfair for the majority of small to medium family farms.:(

    So you want to see money diverted away from farmers - i have no doubt your wish will come to fruition and that idea has been bandied about already

    Like i said 70 Euro a hectare isn't going to do anything for a small farmer let me tell you. If that rate applies then it will see the end of the small and medium family farms that you care about - then you will see distruction. Our farm alone is going to lose an absolute fortune

    I also don't agree with your unfair assessment of the current system - it rewarded the efficent productive farmers and those who were inefficient and idle lost out. It was easy to get a good SFP if you were anyway decent farming. Being a good farmer won't be rewarded in this new structure I am almost certain


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    #46
    Tipp Man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,025 ✭✭✭Tipp Man


    whelan1 wrote: »
    this might be going off on a totally different tangent but at the minute agriculture is one of the best preforming industries in the country , what are the government doing to promote it?

    The only promtion farmers are getting is down at the revenue office where farmers are suddenly important again


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    #47
    Birdnuts
    Registered Users Posts: 9,632 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    Tipp Man wrote: »
    Don't be surprised if a huge amount of money that used to go to farmers goes to other rural activities - the pie might be similar but farmers are going to see less of it

    Thats a possiblity, but theres nothing stopping farmers from diversifying into other rural enterprizes as many already have with much success in alot of cases. At the end of the day if it boosts the rural economy in other ways, that will in turn benefit farm families as much if not more then any other rural dweller.


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    #48
    Tipp Man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,025 ✭✭✭Tipp Man


    Birdnuts wrote: »
    Thats a possiblity, but theres nothing stopping farmers from diversifying into other rural enterprizes as many already have with much success in alot of cases. At the end of the day if it boosts the rural economy in other ways, that will in turn benefit farm families as much if not more then any other rural dweller.

    There is only so many farm guesthouses and "artisan" cheesemakers we can have in this country and there are probably enough of them there already

    The CAP is the common agricultural policy and not the common rural policy


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    #49
    Birdnuts
    Registered Users Posts: 9,632 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    Tipp Man wrote: »
    So you want to see money diverted away from farmers -

    Thats not the point I'm making at all:rolleyes: - I'm just trying to make the best out of what are the proposals coming out of the EU to support rural Ireland. At the end of the day this is being driven by the bigger countries and what their public want, so theres no point in farmers here sticking their head in the sand and some even wishing it was the 80's again:confused:


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    #50
    whelan1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,786 ✭✭✭✭whelan1


    Birdnuts wrote: »
    Thats a possiblity, but theres nothing stopping farmers from diversifying into other rural enterprizes as many already have with much success in alot of cases. At the end of the day if it boosts the rural economy in other ways, that will in turn benefit farm families as much if not more then any other rural dweller.
    i know 2 people with open farms and this has been their worst year ever but repayment s still have to be made . As tippman said there is only so much room for farm cheeses etc and the customer does not have as much disposable income as before the big r


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    #51
    Birdnuts
    Registered Users Posts: 9,632 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    Tipp Man wrote: »
    There is only so many farm guesthouses and "artisan" cheesemakers we can have in this country and there are probably enough of them there already

    The CAP is the common agricultural policy and not the common rural policy

    Thats a very negative view and is certainly not the case across large parts of rural europe that are far, far ahead on all kinds of altenative enterprizes then we are. In any case no matter what any of us think about the issue this is where things are headed.


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    #52
    Tipp Man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,025 ✭✭✭Tipp Man


    Lets look at a simple example of a small to medium farmer

    A beef farmer (no other enterprise) on 100 acres (40 hectare) would easily have a SFP in the 25-30k range under the current arrangement, and it could easily be more.

    Under the current proposals he will get 70 per hectare so that will be 70 times 40 which will give him a new payment of 2,800, yes that's 10% roughly of what he is currently getting.

    Lets say the "greening measures" are another 70 a hectare which would make them 50% of the total payment which is probably as high as that will get

    Thats another 2,800 so in total this 100 acre beef farmer is getting about 5.5k instead of 25-30k. So he will receive about 20% of what he was receiving.

    Now considering the actual profits to be made from beef are slim this farmer is well and truely up the creek and will probably not be able to make a living from his 100 acre farm

    And people think that this reform might be a good thing??:confused::confused::confused:


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    #53
    Tipp Man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,025 ✭✭✭Tipp Man


    Birdnuts wrote: »
    Thats a very negative view and is certainly not the case across large parts of rural europe that are far, far ahead on all kinds of altenative enterprizes then we are. In any case no matter what any of us think about the issue this is where things are headed.

    Have you ever tried managing 120 cows and 200 cattle and then try to manage an alternative enterprise??

    What i am saying is a reality and not a fantasy


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    #54
    Tipp Man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,025 ✭✭✭Tipp Man


    theaceofspies wrote: »
    My understanding is that the CAP Budget or "Pie" is the same as what was received up to now. It's how the pie is divided is what is at stake. Last time round a few farmers got a big chunk of the pie thanks to having high stock rates back during the intial Reference period. This is all still up in the air however as the report in the Farmers Journal should be taken with a pinch of salt until we see the final agreement. Contrary to appearances this is a more a politicial matter than a farming matter and we all know the amount of spin in the field of politics.

    So do you agree with me that the IFA actually said nothing that implied they were defending the position of big farms only?? Because that is what you implied

    When we see the final agreement it will be too late as then it is set in stone. Now is the time for action and not when the agreement is already made


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    #55
    Birdnuts
    Registered Users Posts: 9,632 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    Tipp Man wrote: »
    Have you ever tried managing 120 cows and 200 cattle and then try to manage an alternative enterprise??

    What i am saying is a reality and not a fantasy

    Every farmer/farm family is different TM in terms of stocking and availiable in-house labour - its about what suits the majority given the hand we are about to be given by the big guns in the EU.

    PS: I would class you as a big farmer TM:D;)


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    #56
    Tipp Man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,025 ✭✭✭Tipp Man


    Birdnuts wrote: »
    Every farmer/farm family is different TM in terms of stocking and availiable in-house labour - its about what suits the majority given the hand we are about to be given by the big guns in the EU.

    PS: I would class you as a big farmer TM:D;)

    Its all relative - in the UK, France or Germany I'd be small

    My point is that the country simply won't sustain a massive increase in guesthouses (hotels going bust nevermind guesthouses) or cheesemaking. It is the common everyday farmer that is going to loose out in this and that means thousand upon thousands of farmers losing out. A lot of famers will go to the wall if this level of payment goes through

    I think that some of the guys shouting for the end of quota and a "fairer" SFP are in for a hell of a shock in 2015


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    #57
    whelan1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,786 ✭✭✭✭whelan1


    Tipp Man wrote: »
    Its all relative - in the UK, France or Germany I'd be small

    My point is that the country simply won't sustain a massive increase in guesthouses (hotels going bust nevermind guesthouses) or cheesemaking. It is the common everyday farmer that is going to loose out in this and that means thousand upon thousands of farmers losing out. A lot of famers will go to the wall if this level of payment goes through

    I think that some of the guys shouting for the end of quota and a "fairer" SFP are in for a hell of a shock in 2015
    think alot of these guys are already getting a shock tbh... a rep i had here today said i was the first farmer he had been to in a good while that is under quota:eek:


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    #58
    Birdnuts
    Registered Users Posts: 9,632 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    whelan1 wrote: »
    i know 2 people with open farms and this has been their worst year ever but repayment s still have to be made . As tippman said there is only so much room for farm cheeses etc and the customer does not have as much disposable income as before the big r

    And I know a good few places doing well off the back of increased visitor numbers this year and the fact that more Irish are holidaying at home:)


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    #59
    Birdnuts
    Registered Users Posts: 9,632 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    Tipp Man wrote: »
    IMy point is that the country simply won't sustain a massive increase in guesthouses (hotels going bust nevermind guesthouses) or cheesemaking.

    There's more to aleternative enterprises then them 2 examples you keep referring too - if farmers are given financial support in the area of value added products that can be exported(the one bright area out there) then I think it can only be of benefit. Why always be slaves to a handfull of big processors who of course love the current regime??:(

    PS: On the subject of alternative enterprizes I saw a programme recently on a group of Ugandan farmers that have come together and have used cow manure to produce natural gas that they have scaled up to supply a number of local villages via bottled gas. Nothing stopping farmers her doing similiar things, especially if support is availiable:)


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    #60
    Tipp Man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,025 ✭✭✭Tipp Man


    whelan1 wrote: »
    think alot of these guys are already getting a shock tbh... a rep i had here today said i was the first farmer he had been to in a good while that is under quota:eek:

    The shock is only going to hit home when the massive levies get deducted from their milk cheques


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    #61
    Tipp Man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,025 ✭✭✭Tipp Man


    Birdnuts wrote: »
    There's more to aleternative enterprises then them 2 examples you keep referring too - if farmers are given financial support in the area of value added products that can be exported(the one bright area out there) then I think it can only be of benefit. Why always be slaves to a handfull of big processors who of course love the current regime??:(

    PS: On the subject of alternative enterprizes I saw a programme recently on a group of Ugandan farmers that have come together and have used cow manure to produce natural gas that they have scaled up to supply a number of local villages via bottled gas. Nothing stopping farmers her doing similiar things, especially if support is availiable:)

    Biodigesters have been looked at in this country and have been found to be uneconomical

    I have no problem with farmers diversifing and it should be promoted but at the end of the day farmers are farmers - they get produce from land - that is what they are good at. And a decent sized farm should be able to produce a living on its own merit not on the merit of a second enterprise

    Did you look at my example of how a typical 100 acre beef farmer could be effected with the proposed changes?? Those figures aren't made up by the way - i know loads of beef farmers who will be decimated just as the example shows


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