Night buses

n97 mini · 28-06-2011 1:08pm #1

They say it can't be done in Dublin.

Was in Edinburgh recently. Look at this;

http://www.nightbuses.com/

10 routes, 7 nights a week, in a city that's smaller than Dublin.

What have they got that we don't?

PseudoFamous · 28-06-2011 1:13pm

n97 mini wrote: »

What have they got that we don't?

A night time bus service, clearly.

Cookie_Monster · 28-06-2011 1:20pm

people who go out on the piss regularly on weekdays

LXFlyer · 28-06-2011 1:20pm

And a local authority prepared to subsidise it.

n97 mini · 28-06-2011 1:26pm

Priorities arseways here. Govt will think about subsidising this, but won't subsidise a night bus in the capital city.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0109/pubs.html

Losty Dublin · 28-06-2011 1:28pm

n97 mini wrote: »

Priorities arseways here. Govt will think about subsidising this, but won't subsidise a night bus in the capital city.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0109/pubs.html

1) It was only a suggestion.
2) It didn't actually happen.

n97 mini · 28-06-2011 1:30pm

It sorta did happen as we are already subsidising a rural day service.

PseudoFamous · 28-06-2011 1:30pm

n97 mini wrote: »

Priorities arseways here. Govt will think about subsidising this, but won't subsidise a night bus in the capital city.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0109/pubs.html

I don't know if you've heard, but we're in a pretty bad situation financially. We can't afford to run a bus service that will have about 3 passengers per bus, so the Government are perfectly right not to subsidise any of these things (other than Irish Rail). If you feel that this service will be a roaring success, why don't you start the business, using your own capital?

n97 mini · 28-06-2011 1:34pm

PseudoFamous wrote: »

I don't know if you've heard, but we're in a pretty bad situation financially. We can't afford to run a bus service that will have about 3 passengers per bus, so the Government are perfectly right not to subsidise any of these things (other than Irish Rail). If you feel that this service will be a roaring success, why don't you start the business, using your own capital?

The usual C&T bull****.

We already are running subsidised uneconomic bus services.

And why should Irish Rail be subsidised? Cos travelling by train is nicer?

Losty Dublin · 28-06-2011 1:35pm

n97 mini wrote: »

It sorta did happen as we are already subsidising a rural day service.

For daytime trips, yes. The rural scheme is run locally and is intended to allow people get to banks, shops, GPs etc a couple of times a week; it's not comparable to night buses in cities as the patronage and rationale of it is totally different to urban night buses.

Berns · 28-06-2011 1:37pm

Used to be ones in Belfast but they done away with them too

Some Private firm was allegedly startin one to Lisburn from Belfast but their website seems to be gone so hell knows what happened to them "tiger coaches"

n97 mini · 28-06-2011 1:38pm

Losty Dublin wrote: »

For daytime trips, yes. The rural scheme is run locally and is intended to allow people get to banks, shops, GPs etc a couple of times a week; it's not comparable to night buses in cities as the patronage and rationale of it is totally different to urban night buses.

My point is priorities are wrong.

We're the only capital city in Europe that can use the excuse that we've no money for a night bus service, whilst subsidising various wings of CIE to compete with themselves, in addition to subsidising bus services for people who knew there was no bus service when they chose to live in the sticks.

Losty Dublin · 28-06-2011 1:47pm

n97 mini wrote: »

My point is priorities are wrong.

We're the only capital city in Europe that can use the excuse that we've no money for a night bus service, whilst subsidising various wings of CIE to compete with themselves, in addition to subsidising bus services for people who knew there was no bus service when they chose to live in the sticks.

Dublin Bus ran NiteLink for years mid week. They stopped because nobody was using them mid week and even to some extent, at the weekends. Okay, we can argue the pro's and cons of Dublin Bus being allowed to run later services on all routes but night buses in Dublin have nothing in common with rural buses, which are providing a very different service to a very different clientele.

As an aside, I doubt if my 76 year old aunt, who ran her local rural bus scheme was one bit unique in not being able to drive and living on the family farm until she died.

PseudoFamous · 28-06-2011 1:53pm

n97 mini wrote: »

The usual C&T bull****.

Lovely.

n97 mini wrote: »

We already are running subsidised uneconomic bus services.

As stated, these services are provided to allow people to travel for essential reasons. They run literally 3 services daily. A night bus would essentially be providing the service of being able to be out on the piss all night every night, except our pubs close early, so no one would have reason to use the buses.

n97 mini wrote: »

And why should Irish Rail be subsidised? Cos travelling by train is nicer?

Because it's a pretty good people mover in commuter areas. WRC and any other services which are running highly undercapacity should be cut, as it's a waste of money and resources.

n97 mini wrote: »

My point is priorities are wrong.

We're the only capital city in Europe that can use the excuse that we've no money for a night bus service

We could use the excuse that there's no demand, either.

n97 mini wrote: »

whilst subsidising various wings of CIE to compete with themselves

I agree with you on this point, something should be done.

n97 mini wrote: »

in addition to subsidising bus services for people who knew there was no bus service when they chose to live in the sticks.

The vast majority of people who use the rural bus service are pensioners. They more than likely were born in the area, and cannot fathom leaving, and probably do not even have the ability to do so. To suggest that they chose to live there is somewhat deluded, as the everyone who had the option to get a job, move to a town or city and get a mortgage to buy a house there, have already done. The harsh reality of this is the fact that the government will not have to fund this in even 15 years, as all demand for it will be gone, through death, and migration to towns, cities, or other countries.

Cookie_Monster · 28-06-2011 1:59pm

PseudoFamous wrote: »

As stated, these services are provided to allow people to travel for essential reasons. They run literally 3 services daily. A night bus would essentially be providing the service of being able to be out on the piss all night every night, except our pubs close early, so no one would have reason to use the buses.

Dublin city works 24 hours a day, not just 7 to 11. Plenty of people other than those on the piss need transport outside of "normal hours"

more so than poor old Biddy in Ballygobackwards who needs to get her €20 from the bank

meanmachine3 · 28-06-2011 2:05pm

as we know this country is one big **** up. i totally disagree with the opening post. if people can afford to go out for a few bevies surely to god they could afford a taxi home. just in case most of you missed the 1 o'clock news today. the government are taking school buses off in rural communities next September. if anything, if there is any money, the likes of these services should be kept. but instead they're pissing millions of tax payers money down the drain by giving someone the money to fight them in the european courts. i'll say enough otherwise i'll end up with a lifetime ban here.
but anyway heres a link to the rural school buses being cut.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0628/education.html.

mgmt · 28-06-2011 2:22pm

meanmachine3 wrote: »

as we know this country is one big **** up. i totally disagree with the opening post. if people can afford to go out for a few bevies surely to god they could afford a taxi home. just in case most of you missed the 1 o'clock news today. the government are taking school buses off in rural communities next September. if anything, if there is any money, the likes of these services should be kept. but instead they're pissing millions of tax payers money down the drain by giving someone the money to fight them in the european courts. i'll say enough otherwise i'll end up with a lifetime ban here.
but anyway heres a link to the rural school buses being cut.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0628/education.html.

Nah, If people want to live out in the back arse of the sticks then they should fully expect to fend for themselves and not rely on the taxpayer to fund their lifestyle.

meanmachine3 · 28-06-2011 2:47pm

mgmt wrote: »

Nah, If people want to live out in the back arse of the sticks then they should fully expect to fend for themselves and not rely on the taxpayer to fund their lifestyle.

thats what i'm trying to say mgmt. they're taking school buses of the vulnerable i.e. school kids and expect them to walk to school on dangerous roads which aren't fit for cyclists as pointed out in the news. yet people are calling for night buses to ferry them home after being out on the slosh for the night and probably half scuttered at that.

n97 mini · 28-06-2011 3:12pm

PseudoFamous wrote: »

The vast majority of people who use the rural bus service are pensioners.

Whatever the reason for them living in the country, *everyone* can't have a bus service. I could and would argue that if people want to continue living in unsustainable locations that they ask family members or relatives etc to help them out.

mgmt wrote:

Nah, If people want to live out in the back arse of the sticks then they should fully expect to fend for themselves and not rely on the taxpayer to fund their lifestyle.

Well bloody said!

The rural school bus scheme costs a fortune to run, and is being subsidised massively by people who don't use it. If roads are too dangerous for kids to walk then their parents should arrange some form of transport and pay for it themselves!

A 24/7 bus for the capital facilitates shift workers, tourists, the entertainment sector and and you know, that important thing called the economy, never mind the international perception of the capital of Ireland.

markpb · 28-06-2011 3:17pm

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Dublin Bus ran NiteLink for years mid week. They stopped because nobody was using them mid week and even to some extent, at the weekends.

PseudoFamous wrote: »

We could use the excuse that there's no demand, either.

All the arguments that you guys are making are right and yet the proof is there that there is demand for services that DB can't make work:

No DB services after 11.30pm because there's no demand and somehow the (Green line) Luas that I regularly get between 11.30 and 12.30 are busy enough that people have to stand. Saturday nights are even busier but still no DB service.

No express DB service to the airport until Aircoach came along and showed them there was enough demand for an entire business. Then DB improved/introduced the 747.

Not enough demand along the city centre -> Sandyford corridor for more than a few buses per hour but now trams run every 4-5 minutes at peak times carrying the same number of people at 18 dd buses.

Not enough demand for any service through IFSC or to the Point despite it's burgeoning population and yet the Luas line through there is doing reasonably well.

I'm not saying everyone should have a bus service and that we should throw money at it but just because DB say there's no demand isn't enough reason to rule it out.

dowlingm · 28-06-2011 3:20pm

the political system overrepresents rural areas (by allocating more seats there, although within the bounds of the constitutition's limits) and old people because they vote and 18-35s don't.

One of the worst Celtic Tiger wheezes was Seamus Brennan's extension of Free Travel into the peak commuter services. It was outrageous and should never have been countenanced not least since this was before the crash unfolded and commuter services were so jammed people were fainting on them.

As for night buses - here in Toronto there are night services every 20-30 minutes on arterial routes all night, 365 days a year. Fare is identical to daytime services but routes are numbered in the 300s and don't necessarily follow the daytime equivalent route but may take in parts of others.

bk · 28-06-2011 3:49pm

Yes, I believe the reason the night buses haven't been as successful as they could be is because they are relatively expensive and don't run all night, nor pick up passengers heading into town.

I'd love to see DB trial at least one busy corridor route, all night long, at least once an hour and at the normal fares, with normal tickets usable. And stop to pick up passengers in bound.

I'm convinced such a service would be successful. It is certainly worth trying.

If DB won't do it, then the NTA should license a private operator to do it.

No need for it to be subsidised, I'm convinced the right product can be successful on its own.

At the very least DB should be running to 12 minimum if not 1am.

n97 mini · 28-06-2011 3:55pm

meanmachine3 wrote: »

the government are taking school buses off in rural communities next September.

The problem with socialism is that eventually you will run out of other people's money.

serfboard · 28-06-2011 4:32pm

Not only is there a market for night link services in Dublin, but here's an example of one in Galway run by the private sector.

Nightlink Service:

Thurs, Fri, Sat and Bank Holidays Sundays Only

Single: €7 Return: €12

Athenry / Galway / Athenry

Departure Times

The Arch, Athenry
20:00 21:00 23:00 00:30

O’Connell Bar Eyre Square
20:30 22:30 00:00 02:30

AFAIK, this night service runs along the M6 to Athenry.

Citylink also do a service that leaves Galway at 01:15 and 02:15 to Oranmore, Craughwell, Loughrea and Ballinasloe.

Since services are going to be cut in the public sector, the NTA should authorise more private companies to run services.

foggy_lad · 28-06-2011 5:05pm

At least two busses left busaras yesterday afternoon with less than 3 people on board for the trip to Belfast, they may have picked up a few more at the airport but is it worth the money involved to have an hourly service to Belfast when busses are running empty? surely the money could be used for operating a night time service on a busy Dublin bus corridor? they are the same company after all and we are all paying for it!

and more waste is the new Carlow/Waterford timetable which allows too much time to get to Carlow and can see busses idle at Carlow for upwards of 20 minutes. how much does this cost at drivers rates?

There is funds there for night time services if wastful practices are cut and money spent properly but this is unlikely with CIE at the helm

LXFlyer · 28-06-2011 5:07pm

It should be pointed out that when the night time services originally started there was an extensive number of private operators operating routes...but all bar one (Finnegan to/from Bray) vanished without trace within months.

None of them (it would appear) have attempted to return to the market - that to me speaks volumes.

It should also be pointed out that DB have full agreement with staff to operate night time normal services, and when they tried to introduce it on the 746 and indeed the 7 the DoT stopped it.

BE already do operate quite a few night time services on the Expressway network and Nightrider at weekends.

the groutch · 28-06-2011 6:00pm

I'm surprised that Aircoach haven't picked up on this by experimenting with a City Centre pick-up at night

n97 mini · 28-06-2011 6:02pm

I think that as there is no unified transport after 11:30pm there is little confidence and people resort to taxis. If there was a system and everyone knew about it, it would become the late night defacto public transport, complimented by taxis.

markpb · 28-06-2011 6:07pm

the groutch wrote: »

I'm surprised that Aircoach haven't picked up on this by experimenting with a City Centre pick-up at night

Their license only allows them to operate to/from the airport - they would have to apply for a new license if they wanted to operate services inside the city.

Losty Dublin · 28-06-2011 8:31pm

markpb wrote: »

All the arguments that you guys are making are right and yet the proof is there that there is demand for services that DB can't make work:

No DB services after 11.30pm because there's no demand and somehow the (Green line) Luas that I regularly get between 11.30 and 12.30 are busy enough that people have to stand. Saturday nights are even busier but still no DB service.

If they are packed, it's because they are the last chance to get home, it's a peak time so to speak. The same can be said for last bus on many routes, passenger numbers are always good on the last services ex An Lar.

markpb wrote: »

No express DB service to the airport until Aircoach came along and showed them there was enough demand for an entire business. Then DB improved/introduced the 747.

Funnily enough, I can remember being on dedicated express buses from the airport in the mid 80's;)

markpb wrote: »

Not enough demand along the city centre -> Sandyford corridor for more than a few buses per hour but now trams run every 4-5 minutes at peak times carrying the same number of people at 18 dd buses.

I don't think you were ever on that many 11, 44, 48A or 62 buses in your time. Even with it's slow route and narrow roads, they were more often than not stuffed silly

markpb wrote: »

Not enough demand for any service through IFSC or to the Point despite it's burgeoning population and yet the Luas line through there is doing reasonably well.

The only route DB have been allowed run into the IFSC area (Aside from the 90) has been the 151, a very successful route . The fact that they don't run a route anywhere doesn't actually mean that they have not applied for same.

markpb wrote: »

I'm not saying everyone should have a bus service and that we should throw money at it but just because DB say there's no demand isn't enough reason to rule it out.

I agree with you but as LX alludes to, there are plenty of private bus routes out there and they are not exactly printing the money nor are they queuing up to run new services to fill the holes DB are leaving behind.

bk · 28-06-2011 9:41pm

lxflyer wrote: »

None of them (it would appear) have attempted to return to the market - that to me speaks volumes.

I would assume they are worried that the minute they did, DB would re-introduce their own night bus to crush them.

DB are very like Ryanair in that way.

Night buses

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