report a cheat???

Mr abbey · 02-10-2015 8:19pm #1

Just wondering what people would do if played with someone in club cheating? Played a round with a guy and marked his card, had him for xx points. Later on results seen he had 5 pts more on howdidido and came in prizes.
Was worried I made a mistake (but knew I couldn't of made errors equaling 5pts) and asked club to see the card.
Never got to see card because of genuine club mistake.
Played with same guy again and didn't mark his card so wasn't sure of his score. Then when checking my result on howdodido noticed he had more points than i thought he had.
When I looked at his round on it I seen he had entered pars on two holes I knew he scratched.

Don't think he is changing scores to win prizes, think he is doing it to make his h/c lower for vanity reasons because he just sneaked into prizes on a low scoring day the first time.

Point to add, is our 3rd man on the 2nd round thought the same guy dropped a ball beside his trolley, when we couldnt find his ball on a hole, so he's probably not just changing his scores on computer either.

Mental situation, but I am new member and didn't follow up after i never got to see card in 1st place but he was in prizes last week again and my mate is cracking up that I wont or didn't report him.

Just wondering what other people would do if in similar situation.

dan_ep82 · 02-10-2015 8:50pm

I'd generally be very reluctant to call anyone on any rules but thats blatant cheating. Maybe someone else see's him but decides they'll do it aswell and so on leaving the idea of a comp pointless

Not sure what you can do about it though?

You'll need proof and to get that you'll need to play with him again, would you want to waste your golf time ?

Maybe say it to his playing partners or something to just double check his scores

Clive Bisquette · 02-10-2015 8:54pm

New member ..just keep your head down ..you can';t win!

Chances are if the guy is so blatant in the cheating he is under observation already...just steer clear is my advice...he will come to grief!

First Up · 02-10-2015 8:57pm

Mr abbey wrote: »

Just wondering what people would do if played with someone in club cheating? Played a round with a guy and marked his card, had him for xx points. Later on results seen he had 5 pts more on howdidido and came in prizes.
Was worried I made a mistake (but knew I couldn't of made errors equaling 5pts) and asked club to see the card.
Never got to see card because of genuine club mistake.
Played with same guy again and didn't mark his card so wasn't sure of his score. Then when checking my result on howdodido noticed he had more points than i thought he had.
When I looked at his round on it I seen he had entered pars on two holes I knew he scratched.

Don't think he is changing scores to win prizes, think he is doing it to make his h/c lower for vanity reasons because he just sneaked into prizes on a low scoring day the first time.

Point to add, is our 3rd man on the 2nd round thought the same guy dropped a ball beside his trolley, when we couldnt find his ball on a hole, so he's probably not just changing his scores on computer either.

Mental situation, but I am new member and didn't follow up after i never got to see card in 1st place but he was in prizes last week again and my mate is cracking up that I wont or didn't report him.

Just wondering what other people would do if in similar situation.

Very tough one.

Best I can suggest is you try to have a private moment with the guy and you tell him your concerns - off the record. Be as diplomatic as possible but be clear and specific about it and how it impacts on you.

He may storm off and never talk to you again but you will have done the right thing and my guess is it will have the right effect.

Don't bring others into it; just describe what you think you saw and what problems it caused you. It won't be fun but you will have done the club a service and you will feel better about it - eventually.

HighLine · 02-10-2015 9:00pm

Clive Bisquette wrote: »

New member ..just keep your head down ..you can';t win!

Chances are if the guy is so blatant in the cheating he is under observation already...just steer clear is my advice...he will come to grief!

Balls to that. If he is sure he is blatantly cheating then I'd rather accept any grief for doing the right thing rather than keeping the head down for an easy life.

Russman · 02-10-2015 9:01pm

Very difficult to prove, and if it gets into a "he said, she said" situation where it's your word against his........

What you "should" do is tell the comp sec that yer man didn't have the scores that were credited to him on the computer. They should have a fair idea of the situation if you've already asked to see the card anyway. Whether that's a road you want to go down.......well.......

Just steer clear in future and maybe have a word with him in private with no witnesses and ask him was there a mistake, how did he have that score etc ?

jelutong · 02-10-2015 9:02pm

Did you sign his card?

Kingswood Rover · 02-10-2015 9:13pm

In a situation like this a quiet word off the record to the competition sec or handicap sec emphasizing that you want your anonymity respected should enable some type of monitoring to be put in place. They will be able to look at person's card and see if the holes in question were altered to correspond with his how did i do record, all changes need the initials of the marker.

Mr abbey · 02-10-2015 9:17pm

jelutong wrote: »

Did you sign his card?

Yes, i signed the card on the 1st round but he must of entered different scores on computer. 2nd time another lad did but when I looked at his scorecard on howdidido "whoever" entered scores had put pars in for two holes I know he scratched

Mr abbey · 02-10-2015 9:17pm

jelutong wrote: »

Did you sign his card?

Yes, i signed the card on the 1st round but he must of entered different scores on computer. 2nd time another lad did but when I looked at his scorecard on howdidido "whoever" entered scores had put pars in for two holes I know he scratched

Mr abbey · 02-10-2015 9:33pm

Kingswood Rover wrote: »

In a situation like this a quiet word off the record to the competition sec or handicap sec emphasizing that you want your anonymity respected should enable some type of monitoring to be put in place. They will be able to look at person's card and see if the holes in question were altered to correspond with his how did i do record, all changes need the initials of the marker.

That sounds quite sensible. Definitely wouldn't like to be dragged into an awkward aituation but maybe will mention it again quietly about the 2nd inciddent and leave it to be monitored and checked by someone official

PARlance · 02-10-2015 10:26pm

I would have no issue "marking his card" the next time you see him. Congratulate him on it and let the silence speak for itself.

They'll be watching his scores/cards from now on hopefully.

Was he a low HC'er?
I know of one instance this year were a guy was doing the same. He wasn't doing it for prizes but he was keeping it low enough in order to qualify for prestigious amateur comps. He wasn't a member for long after a few people sussed it.

Dtoffee · 02-10-2015 11:25pm

Under no circumstancers would I talk to the guy at this late stage. He appears to be a serious serial cheat and you are basically allowing him to continue. Put your observations in writing to the committee and let them deal with it, if you continue to ignore his cheating, then you are as guilty as him.

First Up · 03-10-2015 8:28am

Dtoffee wrote: »

Under no circumstancers would I talk to the guy at this late stage. He appears to be a serious serial cheat and you are basically allowing him to continue. Put your observations in writing to the committee and let them deal with it, if you continue to ignore his cheating, then you are as guilty as him.

Don't agree. All the OP has to address is the matters he was directly involved in and can stand over. Allegations of "serious, serial cheating" are bringing it into very different and dangerous territory.

The fair - and legally sustainable - way is to deal first with the guy directly and give him an opportunity to respond. Depending on how that goes the OP can decide if he wants to take it further but he will then be on firm ground.

But the ONLY matter the OP should address is his direct experience. The rest is hearsay and potentially very messy.

fullstop · 03-10-2015 8:45am

Mr abbey wrote: »

Yes, i signed the card on the 1st round but he must of entered different scores on computer. 2nd time another lad did but when I looked at his scorecard on howdidido "whoever" entered scores had put pars in for two holes I know he scratched

Well the score on the card overrides the score on the computer so he must have changed the card as well as it would have been cross-referenced. I'd definitely be saying it to the comp sec.

First Up · 03-10-2015 9:22am

fullstop wrote: »

Well the score on the card overrides the score on the computer so he must have changed the card as well as it would have been cross-referenced. I'd definitely be saying it to the comp sec.

I would say it to the perpetrator first.

fullstop · 03-10-2015 9:38am

First Up wrote: »

I would say it to the perpetrator first.

Not a chance. People willing to cheat like this have no shame and I'd wager he'd probably make a complaint if you said it to him, making you look bad.

superfurry1 · 03-10-2015 9:46am

Was this the guy in question?

First Up · 03-10-2015 9:47am

Nope, it is called due process. If the OP complains to the Committee without giving the accused a chance to account for himself, he is leaving it open to legal challenges on several fronts, including defamation.

Senna · 03-10-2015 10:55am

Do you know any committee members, or maybe a team captain or just someone who's been at the club a long time?
Have a quiet word in their ear, you'll probably find they are aware of it already. Clubs by nature are small and any messing about is normally known by everyone, but nothing might be done about it.

First Up · 03-10-2015 11:10am

This is crazy advice lads. Think about it. The technical term for "having words in someone's ear" is slander. If the alleged offender is any way litigious you are giving him enough ammunition to keep the legal profession in funds for months.

You either you play this straight down the middle by taking it up with the person concerned and then seeing where that leaves it - or else you forget about it.

Senna · 03-10-2015 12:38pm

We don't all worry about being sued and seek legal advice for every situation.
Yes you are right, but if we all followed it, we would never speak to other members. Bandits, teams winning classic, interclub games, etc are discussed at length daily and most of it would be slander or what ever the term is.

First Up · 03-10-2015 12:55pm

So you think it is OK to mutter about stuff behind peoples' backs but not to have the moxy to deal with it directly?

Yep, that'll improve things.

fullstop · 03-10-2015 2:38pm

Seeing as you insist upon using the term 'slander', for it to be slander he would have to be making false statements.

Kingswood Rover · 03-10-2015 2:38pm

First Up wrote: »

Nope, it is called due process. If the OP complains to the Committee without giving the accused a chance to account for himself, he is leaving it open to legal challenges on several fronts, including defamation.

Not if it is off the record, let them be aware of it and catch him in the act that takes the OP out of it... totally agree that if the committee subsequently find grounds to reprimand the person over altering scores it may indeed go legal.

First Up · 03-10-2015 3:33pm

No such thing as "off the record". We are not talking about journalism.

HighLine · 03-10-2015 4:15pm

Just to be clear on the defamation (no longer a libel/slander distinction under Irish law) element... yes you are leaving yourself open to litigation if you are posting on social media or spreading the rumours in the bar.

However, if you say to the Captain that "I played with Paddy and the scores on his card/howdidido, were not the scores that I signed for or witnessed" then that is perfectly fine and is what should happen in the OP's predicament IMO.

First Up · 03-10-2015 6:08pm

fullstop wrote: »

Seeing as you insist upon using the term 'slander', for it to be slander he would have to be making false statements.

Which presumably would be the position of the accused until the OP - and the club - could prove it in court.

There is a good chance that a warning shot in the form of a private conversation between the two parties would put an end to his behaviour, as he would know he was under scrutiny. But charging in head first with an accusation would put his back to the wall and could start a very expensive chain reaction.

Why risk it?

First Up · 03-10-2015 6:37pm

In response to HighLine - I'm just suggesting that he first shares his concerns with Paddy and gives him the opportunity to respond. The ball is then back in Paddy's court. If the OP is not satisfied after that, he is perfectly justified in telling the captain or committee about it.

BraveDonut · 05-10-2015 12:17pm

Surely there are two different cases here.
Seeing someone cheating on the course is a difficult one to prove and definitely comes down to your word against theirs.

The other case, where a scorecard is altered, is more open and shut for me.
If I sign a card as marker, that is my attestation as to the score the player achieved. If the card is changed after that signature, it possibly calls my good name into question and would make it appear that I was complicit in the cheating.
I would not pussy-foot around that situation. I would call this player out in any forum. It should not be my opinion that I signed for the original score - it should be considered fact.

Hacker111 · 05-10-2015 10:00pm

I imagine he is well known in the club as a cheat.... these guys are infamous.... personally while I note that you are a new member you must do what is right.... draft a letter regarding both rounds.... state your concerns... send it to the Captain of the Men's Club... they will deal with the matter.... it may be a he said she said scenario but its out there formally and he will be skating on thin ice going forward.....there could already be letters about him on file... i know guys who have reported people and had them suspended for 6 months.... rules are the rules

report a cheat???

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