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Man avoids jail for sexually assaulting two nieces

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    #92
    HeyThereDeliah
    Closed Accounts Posts: 967 ✭✭✭HeyThereDeliah


    davet82 wrote: »

    How many times have we seen 'low risk offenders' come before the courts again? i dont have any figures on it but i'm betting its more often than not when it comes to crime (open to correction on this too)

    Are you talking about sexual offences or all crime offences?


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    #93
    coffee_cake
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,310 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    Madam Marie wrote: »
    Such as?

    It's more of an expression of frustration that something be done since the courts wont do it, than a specific step by step plan...


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    #94
    MagicMarker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    Holsten wrote: »
    First offense in front of the court. Simply he has no prior convictions for this or any other crime.

    Yes, but he's done it on 3 different occasions, how is someone who's re-offended twice already a low risk of re-offending?

    I have no problem with him getting a lesser sentence for being a first time offender, for pleading guilty or for other extenuating circumstances. The problem is this man didn't any sentence, his name won't even be added to the sex offenders register.

    The man got off scott free for sexual assault on three different occasions, one of which was bordering on rape ffs.


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    #95
    Odysseus
    Registered Users Posts: 6,754 ✭✭✭Odysseus


    HeyThereDeliah wrote: »
    I think the sentence is right in this case.


    I have to say I would more likely to agree with you, than disagree. What we do not have access to is the victim impact statements, I would like to think that this was highly considered by the judge when passing sentence.

    Far from being an expert on the matter but I have worked with both victims and offenders. All abuse should be reported is my personal opinion, but the judge is right that there is a scale of offences. Some people have experienced such severe abuse that you would wonder is the person can ever recover, I mean really horrfic stuff; but not all sexual violence is like that. Then you also have to consider the subjective affects that such an experience can have on a person.

    I do wonder if naming the person was the way to go in this case, as it could be possible to indentify the victims as they are related to the offender. I also wonder if the two women made an informed decision about agreeing to name the offender, hopefully it is something that they will later regret.

    Sexual violence is such an emotive topic, that people will always be outraged by it; however, I have not time viewpoint that sees anyone who is not in favour off locking them all up forever, as bleeding heart liberals. Sexual violence is a complex topic as well as an emotive; however, the justice system is not just there to punish. There are many factors to be considered when a person is sentenced for a crime.

    At the end of the day, the offender has not got off scot free. It has had a profound effect on his family, he now has a criminal record for a sex offense, he has been publically named, this will affect him for years and people will know what he is guilty of.

    Is this enough for the two women he abused, well none of us here can really answer that. I have known people who have been happy enough with such an outcome, I additionally know some who felt the system let them down. This is why I would hope that their impact statement would a strong factor in this sentence.


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    #96
    tigger12
    Registered Users Posts: 2 ✭tigger12


    the women are both in their 30s and its never too late to report abuse


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    #97
    geetar
    Registered Users Posts: 469 ✭✭geetar


    if that man gets harmed, that judge will be held responsible


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    #98
    jmayo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,078 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    ResearchWill wrote: »
    Wallace etc are not down to judges that's AGS and DPP. In relation to this sex offender in light of all the facts disclosed sententce is ok in my view, garlic guy I have stated I think 6 years way too much but I do think he should do time.

    In your eyes, what exactly would the car dealer have had to have done to justify him getting a custodial sentence ?
    Holsten wrote: »
    Of course they can be wrong, anyone can be wrong. But keep in mind that he has probably dealt with hundreds of cases similar to this, all with different mitigation and aggravating factors. He'll more often than not get it spot on.

    Except when judges get it wrong, they can get it fooking spectacularly wrong.
    Just ask the parents of Manuela Riedo.
    The judge in question there probably thought he got it spot on when he released the prime suspect in a rape case contrary to Garda advise.
    His decision resulted in the rape and murder of a young girl.
    Holsten wrote: »
    Brilliant that people actually do that, as it is the only way things might change.

    I don't think so at all. Risk is a huge factor in sentencing, it's not a guessing game at all. What will a custodial sentence do? Just "punish" him for what? A year? Probably less. He needs to get some form of treatment.

    First offense in front of the court. Simply he has no prior convictions for this or any other crime.

    gerard barry had a string of convictions as long as your arm, including that of the death of an innocent man on a night out, yet a judge decided that he should be given bail contrary to the advise of the Gardai.

    Yeah judges know it all and we should meekly accept their rulings due to their superior knowledge. :rolleyes:

    Judges, indeed our prison and prosecutory system is in this country has a list of fookups as long as your arm and I can pull out a list of people who have needlessly died horrible deaths due to them.

    As long as you defer to the learned judges superior knowledge, I will as a counter list these fookups from the same judiciary class.
    Boombastic wrote: »
    In May 2002, the Garda Síochána launched Operation Amethyst, a major investigation based on details received from Interpol in August 2001 of Irish credit card transactions made in 1999 to a child-pornography website in Texas.[5] The operation led to numerous arrests and convictions. Detectives executed a search warrant on Curtin's private residence, seized his computer and reported finding 273 child pornographic images on the hard disk. Curtin was charged in January 2003. Following delays due to the judge's ill-health, the trial took place in April 2004. At the trial, Curtin claimed that the search was illegal because it had taken place outside the limit of the 7-day warrant. The Gardaí claimed that the delay was due to Curtin's extended absence from his home and that when it took place at 2:20pm on 27 May 2002, it was still within the 7-day limit.[6][7] The trial judge ruled that the search was illegal. As a result the computer evidence found could not be used. Without that evidence Curtin was found not guilty, the judge declaring that the case was "crystal clear

    Surprising that a judge would find in favour of a fellow judge, isn't it. :rolleyes:


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    #99
    ResearchWill
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,111 ✭✭✭ResearchWill


    jmayo wrote: »
    In your eyes, what exactly would the car dealer have had to have done to justify him getting a custodial sentence ?



    Except when judges get it wrong, they can get it fooking spectacularly wrong.
    Just ask the parents of Manuela Riedo.
    The judge in question there probably thought he got it spot on when he released the prime suspect in a rape case contrary to Garda advise.
    His decision resulted in the rape and murder of a young girl.



    gerard barry had a string of convictions as long as your arm, including that of the death of an innocent man on a night out, yet a judge decided that he should be given bail contrary to the advise of the Gardai.

    Yeah judges know it all and we should meekly accept their rulings due to their superior knowledge. :rolleyes:

    Judges, indeed our prison and prosecutory system is in this country has a list of fookups as long as your arm and I can pull out a list of people who have needlessly died horrible deaths due to them.

    As long as you defer to the learned judges superior knowledge, I will as a counter list these fookups from the same judiciary class.



    Surprising that a judge would find in favour of a fellow judge, isn't it. :rolleyes:

    To answer your question, it's not just about what is done in committing the offences, it is the previous history of the defendant, it is what has happened since the offences. The fact that the two victims did not come forward till many years later when a third party discovered the matter. The fact that the guy pleaded guilty and did not force a trial. What this man did could in certain circumstances lead to prison in other cases it should not.

    Prison is not always the best way to deal with a matter. The judge has to weigh up all the facts.

    In relation to the the issues you bring up in relation to bail, it is always a hard decision for a judge to make and unless you advocate prison on the off chance a person will commit an offence, well then we would need loads more prison spaces. Judges are also aware that each person they put in prison on remand means more than likely a convicted person getting out early.

    I agree judges make errors, but that why we have an appeal process to the CCA and remember the DPP can appeal the sentence as well.


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    #100
    tigger12
    Registered Users Posts: 2 ✭tigger12


    he better not be harmed he is a good man


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    #101
    TwoShedsJackson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,438 ✭✭✭TwoShedsJackson


    tigger12 wrote: »
    he better not be harmed he is a good man

    Sounds like a real gem alright.


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    #102
    Mrmoe
    Registered Users Posts: 2,212 ✭✭✭Mrmoe


    Mandatory minimum sentencing should be introduced. Only way to banish cases like this to the history books.


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    #103
    Seanchai
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,401 ✭✭✭Seanchai


    davet82 wrote: »
    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/courts/car-dealer-avoids-jail-for-sexually-assaulting-two-nieces-3249984.html



    Since when was it the medias job to administrate justice?

    This really pisses me off, is being named and shamed not a consequence of being a dirty pervert!

    The guy walks free and sends out a message to other dirtbags they can get away with it and a message to victims that there is no point going to the courts you won't get justice!

    :mad:

    Having just read the linked article in the Independent rag, this individual assaulted two adult nieces. The headline gives the impression that he abused children. To most people, this is a quite significant distinction.

    Either way, the guy's life is over now that he's named in this tiny society. He might as well emigrate.


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    #104
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Seanchai wrote: »
    Having just read the linked article in the Independent rag, this individual assaulted two adult nieces. The headline gives the impression that he abused children. To most people, this is a quite significant distinction.

    Either way, the guy's life is over now that he's named in this tiny society. He might as well emigrate.

    How does it give that impression? It says 'nieces'. That's what they are. How else are the supposed to be described? It also states in the first line of the article that they were his adult nieces. Nowhere does it imply that they were children when it happened, not that it should make a difference either way. Sexual assault is sexual assault.


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    #105
    Boombastic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,496 ✭✭✭Boombastic


    tigger12 wrote: »
    he better not be harmed he is a good man

    Oh a great man. Nothing like a bit of the old sexual assault :rolleyes:


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    #106
    Seanchai
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,401 ✭✭✭Seanchai


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    How does it give that impression? It says 'nieces'. That's what they are. How else are the supposed to be described?

    adult nieces? An important word which was deliberately omitted from the title in the Independent rag.


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    #107
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    I feel sick reading this, its hard enough to come forward and admit you are the victim of a sexual assault without being made to feel you are only coming forward to make a bit of money. Is it any wonder so few victims do come forward when they see judges like this treat it like its nothing.


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    #108
    dark crystal
    Registered Users Posts: 10,962 ✭✭✭✭dark crystal


    Seanchai wrote: »
    adult nieces? An important word which was deliberately omitted from the title in the Independent rag.

    What difference does it make what age they were when they were sexually assaulted? A crime is a crime, regardless.


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    #109
    Madam Marie
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 85 ✭✭Madam Marie


    bluewolf wrote: »
    It's more of an expression of frustration that something be done since the courts wont do it, than a specific step by step plan...

    So you're taking back what you said then.


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    #110
    Madam_X
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,327 ✭✭✭Madam_X


    davet82 wrote: »
    where the fcuk did she say sexually assaulting women is ok?
    Nowhere of course. That poster is being disingenuous for the sake of a reaction clearly. Bang of plenty of that on this thread.

    @Holsten: I know what you mean re people not knowing about the law castigating the judge, however sentences in this country for heinous crimes ARE regularly too lenient; ludicrously so. That said, does a judge just pluck a sentence from the air? There is the matter of the existing statute books, which in and of themselves seem to need a revamp - in lots of areas.


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    #111
    Sofiztikated
    Registered Users Posts: 6,995 ✭✭✭Sofiztikated


    dark crystal wrote: »
    What difference does it make what age they were when they were sexually assaulted? A crime is a crime, regardless.

    A crime is a crime, but age will determine the severity of the crime.

    I'm in no way saying abuse is not severe, but abuse of a minor is (in my eyes anyway) a more heinous crime.

    Shoddy journalism leads people to assume that he's a kiddy fiddler. He's not.


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    #112
    meoklmrk91
    Registered Users Posts: 4,085 ✭✭✭meoklmrk91


    I heard a fomer circuit court judge speak on newtalk breakfast yesterday. He seemed to be appalled by this, he said that judges themselves are completely and utterly opposed to mandatory sentencing, but every couple of months a new story comes out about a judge treating sexual assault victims as though they do matter in light that the perp is a well respected business man, family man and pillar of the community. This is why we need mandatory bloody sentencing.

    Sexual assault is sexual assault regardless of the context, for a judge to describe an assault as being on the lower scale of severity, especially because it didn't last that long is just disgusting, is that supposed to be some consolation to the victims, well you should be happy because your lucky he didn't rape you?

    He might not be a paedophile but he did sexually assault his nieces which makes him a dirty incestuous pervert, one that got a little slap on the wrist and is at home with his family today having suffered little to no consequences. While his victims will have to live with he he done to them, every second, every minute of every day for the rest of their lives with the added insult that it doesn't deserve punishment in a court of law, in fairness who is really receiving the punishment here?


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    #113
    padd b1975
    Registered Users Posts: 10,702 ✭✭✭✭padd b1975


    eviltwin wrote: »
    I feel sick reading this, its hard enough to come forward and admit you are the victim of a sexual assault without being made to feel you are only coming forward to make a bit of money. Is it any wonder so few victims do come forward when they see judges like this treat it like its nothing.

    Was it mentioned during the trial that the victims were only making their complaint for financial gain?


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    #114
    Madam_X
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,327 ✭✭✭Madam_X


    Someone looking for a reaction suggested that here.


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    #115
    Seanchai
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,401 ✭✭✭Seanchai


    dark crystal wrote: »
    What difference does it make what age they were when they were sexually assaulted? A crime is a crime, regardless.


    That "crime is a crime" sounds like two-thirds of a soundbite from the Thatcher yoke about 1981 (which itself was plagiarising Gertrude Stein's "a rose is a rose is a rose"). In fact, however, everybody without exception makes a judgement on a crime. They do not equate a petty robber with a serial rapist, even though both are crimes.

    Similarly, if that headline included the relevant word "adult" people's perception of it would be different because people deem an assault on a child to be even worse than an assault on an adult.

    Another low class journalistic experience from Independent Newspapers.


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    #116
    Milk & Honey
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,950 ✭✭✭Milk & Honey


    meoklmrk91 wrote: »
    Sexual assault is sexual assault regardless of the context, for a judge to describe an assault as being on the lower scale of severity, especially because it didn't last that long is just disgusting, is that supposed to be some consolation to the victims, well you should be happy because your lucky he didn't rape you?
    The judge is explaining his reasoning. It is not intended as consolation to the victims. Every crime can be put on a scale as to how bad an example it is of a given crime. Stealing a bottle of milk from a shop by a person who came in as a customer and tried to slip it out would be low on the scale of theft offences. An employee of the shop stealing a bottle of milk would be higher on the scale because of the breach of trust involved.
    It is not the offence itself but the context which the judge was talking about.
    There are much worse examples of the offence the perpetrator in this case was convicted of, which appear before the courts frequently. They get the highest sentences for that particular offence. Less egregious examples get lower sentences.
    The victims never like hearing it, but the Judge is obliged to say it.


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    #117
    davet82
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,753 ✭✭✭davet82


    Seanchai wrote: »
    Having just read the linked article in the Independent rag, this individual assaulted two adult nieces. The headline gives the impression that he abused children. To most people, this is a quite significant distinction.

    Either way, the guy's life is over now that he's named in this tiny society. He might as well emigrate.


    The headline says nieces (which is a type of relationshipyou share with somebody, it does not indicate somebody’s age e.g. uncle,mother, brother). You've made a presumption probably based on your own age maybe?

    The article clearly states they were adults.

    If you just go around reading news headlines maybe you'll get the ‘wrong impression’ as you put it but most people actually read an article following a headline :confused:

    Obviously this was the most important issue in the article :rolleyes:


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    #118
    Odysseus
    Registered Users Posts: 6,754 ✭✭✭Odysseus


    meoklmrk91 wrote: »

    Sexual assault is sexual assault regardless of the context, for a judge to describe an assault as being on the lower scale of severity, especially because it didn't last that long is just disgusting, is that supposed to be some consolation to the victims, well you should be happy because your lucky he didn't rape you?

    He might not be a paedophile but he did sexually assault his nieces which makes him a dirty incestuous pervert, one that got a little slap on the wrist and is at home with his family today having suffered little to no consequences. While his victims will have to live with he he done to them, every second, every minute of every day for the rest of their lives with the added insult that it doesn't deserve punishment in a court of law, in fairness who is really receiving the punishment here?



    No I don't believe the judge is saying that, however, the truth is that compared to other assaults this case is on the lower end of the scale. Acts of sex violence are not all the same, and the reality is we do not know how the two women this man assaulted are going to be for the rest of their lives. People react to traumatic experiences in different ways; to say the will carry this for every minute of every day for the rest of their lives is erroneous. They may or they may move on leaving this nasty episode of their lives behind them.

    I hope the access treatment and that the latter applies to them; however, nobody hear can know that. In the same way that each victim of sexual violence we react to the event in a subjective manner, we need to classify the seriousness of different types of sexual assault in order to deal with these individual. Sentencing and treatment need to be different for different types of offender; it is not a case of just locking people up.

    I have listened to both victims and offenders [though I would work more with the former, I do deal with the occasional offender] and well imo there are different degree, levels etc of sexual violence. Sexual assault is a horrific experience to encounter, however, when you hear cases like this and then hear cases that could belong to some TV programme it is clear that all sexual assaults are not the same. These differences need to acknowledged and considered when a sentence is being delivered.

    From my experience classifying a case as being on the lower end of the scale does not in any way minimise the trauma that the assaulted person has experienced. It is merely a technical way of describing the event. I don't really have any problem with the sentence, I would have liked to see the offender sent for treatment [in the same way I hope the two women have access to plenty of supports]. As my previous post stated I don't think he got a slap on the wrist, and the judge will have a lot more information available to him than we have.


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    #119
    jmayo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,078 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    Well it looks like good old Judge Martin Nolan has struck again.

    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/courts/sex-attacker-to-escape-jail-by-paying-15000-3263766.html
    A MAN who committed a violent sex attack on a teenager has escaped jail on condition he pay her €15,000, sparking anger among rape support groups.

    Graham Griffiths (29) told gardai that he felt he was "under some magnetic force" and "it must have been the hormones" that caused him to attack the 17-year-old girl.

    Judge Martin Nolan imposed a four-year sentence -- which he suspended in full on conditions including that Griffiths pay €15,000 to his victim within one year "to bring home the seriousness of what he has done".
    ...
    He had been at a drugs party the previous night and later admitted to gardai that he had taken hallucinogenic drugs along with alcohol.

    He is originally from Dublin but has been living in Louth with his girlfriend for the last six years. The couple plan to get married.

    Griffiths has previous convictions, four of which are for assault causing harm.
    ...
    The court heard that Griffiths first approached the girl in a chip shop in a Dublin suburb but she pushed him away. He then grabbed her a second time on the street outside but she got away again before he grabbed her a third time.

    This time he pushed her against railings and sexually assaulted her before he dragged her to the ground by her hair and pinned her by lying on top of her.

    Griffiths ripped the girl's clothes in an effort to get them off her. During the attack her male friend was trying to get him off the victim.
    ...

    So could the apologists for this judge please explain again how he took the defendant's previous criminal record into account.
    That was after all the argument the last time he let a sex offender walk out of his court.


    We all draw attention to his sentencing leanings with the case of the garlic man but here is yet another example.

    He gave a Tesco employee 4.5 years with 2.5 suspended because he defrauded Tesco.
    A TESCO executive has been jailed for defrauding the company of more than €100,000 to cover the cost of holidays and a trip to the rugby World Cup.

    Judge Martin Nolan noted Slevin had betrayed his position of "great responsibility and trust" at Tesco and imposed a four-year sentence but suspended the final two-and-a-half.

    But once again good old judge martin reckons a bit of sexual assualt does not need jail time.

    The moral of the story here is if you want to get off on sexual assault charges, try and make sure you get judge nolan and have a few quid set aside to pay off the victim.
    But if you are up on any charges of fraud try and make sure you don't get judge nolan.


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    #120
    smurgen
    Registered Users Posts: 6,933 ✭✭✭smurgen


    davet82 wrote: »
    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/courts/car-dealer-avoids-jail-for-sexually-assaulting-two-nieces-3249984.html



    Since when was it the medias job to administrate justice?

    This really pisses me off, is being named and shamed not a consequence of being a dirty pervert!

    The guy walks free and sends out a message to other dirtbags they can get away with it and a message to victims that there is no point going to the courts you won't get justice!

    :mad:


    so the judge thinks his name being out in the open is punishement enough?Why is he advocating vigilatism? The scumbag should have been locked up for years and then getting the sh1t kicked out of him after he was released.


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