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Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 2] *Poll Reset*

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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    xflyer wrote: »
    Well we Russians have spoken.
    ... and lost the cold war.

    Seriously, it is now clear that the tax is here to stay. The anti charge people gave a bloody nose to the government, but no knockout punch. The government wins, on points.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    alastair wrote: »
    Quite - for some anyway, who live in a fantasy where the government is 'undemocratic' because they don't want to stump up €100.

    A more slithering. Perhaps a mention of my car, still in the driveway as a garden ornament, will also help take your tax avoidng when it suits you, off the agenda now.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 615 ✭✭✭Bishop_Donal


    squod wrote: »
    So you accept the majority of the population do not want to pay a household charge and their views should be enforced?

    I think you'll find that the initial compliance rate for the charge would be sufficient to garner an overall majority under proportional representation!

    I'll guarantee you that the compliance rate will rise to the 70% mark minimum over the coming months. Then, bit by bit, the rest will come on board because they have no option. It's just like the bin charges all over again. Loads of empty vessels, but they'll all comply in the end because they ultimately have no choice (otherwise you own a property that you can't sell!!).


  • Registered Users Posts: 65 ✭✭apache6


    and the winners of this cold war are the very people who shafted ireland, Timothy Geithner US Treasury secretary came off the phone to Obama and straight away told our Government that under no circumstances would the US tolerate Ireland not paying all bond holders - contrary to IMF advice - extarordinary


  • Registered Users Posts: 65 ✭✭apache6


    I think you'll find that the initial compliance rate for the charge would be sufficient to garner an overall majority under proportional representation!

    I'll guarantee you that the compliance rate will rise to the 70% mark minimum over the coming months. Then, bit by bit, the rest will come on board because they have no option. It's just like the bin charges all over again. Loads of empty vessels, but they'll all comply in the end because they ultimately have no choice (otherwise you own a property that you can't sell!!).

    You can't sell property anyway, have you been under a rock - the economy is in freefall - 6 six years of falling domestic economy, a new EU record.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    A more slithering. Perhaps a mention of my car, still in the driveway as a garden ornament, will also help take your tax avoidng when it suits you, off the agenda now.

    Eh? You're the one who tried to pretend that motor tax wasn't a tax on car ownership - because you can keep the car in the garden without taxing it! If that's the best you can drum up, you deserve ridicule.

    Why don't you toddle off and find something of mine in this thread that actually involves hypocrisy? Because you'll be wasting your time. I was quite clear on the reasons for supporting this tax, and opposing the poll tax - and if you can't get your head around that - not really my problem.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,172 ✭✭✭emo72


    apache6 wrote: »
    and the winners of this cold war are the very people who shafted ireland, Timothy Geithner US Treasury secretary came off the phone to Obama and straight away told our Government that under no circumstances would the US tolerate Ireland not paying all bond holders - contrary to IMF advice - extarordinary

    I remember hearing about this at the time but didn't follow up on it. It is extraordinary and for those who think we live in a democracy, well, you do as long as you do as your told.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 95 ✭✭The Crab


    I cannot believe there are people out there who argue for this fascist tax. Those who support it are doing very well under the current system and are frightened of change. It didn't take the world and its daughter to improve the czarist system in Russia, it shouldn't take the world and its daughter to change the fascist system in Ireland. It just needs a group of people who have bollocks who will stand up to this system where if you are rich you can do anything you like but if you are poor then be prepared to be spat on or go to prison.

    Hasta la Victoria Siempre!


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    The Crab wrote: »
    I cannot believe there are people out there who argue for this fascist tax. Those who support it are doing very well under the current system and are frightened of change. It didn't take the world and its daughter to improve the czarist system in Russia, it shouldn't take the world and its daughter to change the fascist system in Ireland. It just needs a group of people who have bollocks who will stand up to this system where if you are rich you can do anything you like but if you are poor then be prepared to be spat on or go to prison.

    Hasta la Victoria Siempre!

    Wow. Colour me impressed. A double fascist and a bonus white russian reference. And never gets near the actual issue to hand. Well done that man!


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,172 ✭✭✭emo72


    alastair wrote: »
    Wow. Colour me impressed. A double fascist and a bonus white russian reference. And never gets near the actual issue to hand. Well done that man!


    Think he is suggesting, the point that you are arguing in defence of the tax, therefore you are doing well under the current regime.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 65 ✭✭apache6


    emo72 wrote: »
    I remember hearing about this at the time but didn't follow up on it. It is extraordinary and for those who think we live in a democracy, well, you do as long as you do as your told.


    emo, yes it's true but well they don't want to trouble us simple folk with anything quite so mundane as Truth.

    The IMF suggested we should scald/burn bond holders but the US government played hardball, something our government hadn't the courage to do.
    It was like a high stakes poker game where our boys couldn't look their opponent in the eye - so we lost hands down. Then again we did pay advisors 25 Million and they advised against the blanket guarantee and we ignored their advice too.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    emo72 wrote: »
    Think he is suggesting, the point that you are arguing in defence of the tax, therefore you are doing well under the current regime.

    I don't believe I know Mr Crab, so I'm pretty sure he doesn't know how well I'm doing or otherwise. Wasn't Che a fan of property taxes in any case?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 615 ✭✭✭Bishop_Donal


    apache6 wrote: »
    You can't sell property anyway, have you been under a rock - the economy is in freefall - 6 six years of falling domestic economy, a new EU record.

    Think you are missing the point, but it"s all academic now anyway.

    You can amend the slogan now to:

    Don't register; Don't Pay; Don't sell; Don't worry about the penalty you're incurring until you are forced to pay it!!

    In the end of the day you are doing a bit extra for the country by paying the penalty, so even when you are given the extra bit of latitude, please don't avail of it!!! Do your bit for the country > pay the higher charge.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,172 ✭✭✭emo72


    apache6 wrote: »
    emo, yes it's true but well they don't want to trouble us simple folk with anything quite so mundane as Truth.

    The IMF suggested we should scald/burn bond holders but the US government played hardball, something our government hadn't the courage to do.
    It was like a high stakes poker game where our boys couldn't look their opponent in the eye - so we lost hands down. Then again we did pay advisors 25 Million and they advised against the blanket guarantee and we ignored their advice too.


    I know its horrible. The civil servants and politicians had nothing to lose. They knew their pensions and jobs were safe. They signed us up for it instead. Absolutely morally corrupt bastards. Hope they rot in hell.


  • Registered Users Posts: 716 ✭✭✭phil1nj


    alastair wrote: »

    ..... and find something of mine in this thread that actually involves hypocrisy? .

    Post #7366 from the 1st half of this thread:

    alastair: I'll say pay your damn taxes - there's the actual principle.

    Post #7708:

    And as the poll tax. I was there and refused to pay

    Definition of HYPOCRITE

    1
    : a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue or religion
    2
    : a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings

    :confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:


  • Registered Users Posts: 65 ✭✭apache6


    alastair wrote: »
    I don't believe I know Mr Crab, so I'm pretty sure he doesn't know how well I'm doing or otherwise. Wasn't Che a fan of property taxes in any case?

    Funny you should mention Che;

    The US House of Representatives Committee on Foreign Affairs has written to the Taoiseach telling him to stop Galway City Council erecting a statue in Eyre Square to South American revolutionary Che Guevara.

    So, Sorry people of Democratic Galway - the Yanks have decided for you - that's Democracy Folks - have a nice day.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 95 ✭✭The Crab


    This tax is purely regressive. It taxes people purely on what property they own, not on what they actually bring in. So a millionaire who chooses to live in a one bedroomed terraced house because that's where he grew up is taxed proportionally less than someone who owns a three bedroomed semi because they have two children and want to have a bit of space to let them play yet works his bollocks off to pay for it. It is utter nonsense.

    What it is seeking to do is put the lower income earners in a certain type of housing, i.e. rented, that pays into the hands of the rich who can afford to own more than one house and so can be a landlord. There is nothing about any Fianna Fail or Fine Gael government that is aimed at anything else. They are notoriously right wing and want the status quo maintained.

    And if you're stupid enough to believe that a country that (a)charges the Earth for fifth rate healthcare; (b)doesn't provide free education even to children (don't give me claptrap that schools are free, books which are free in the UK aren't here, and everyone knows every school demands a "contribution"; (c)charges call out rates for its emergency services; needs money for its "local services" then you deserve what you get.

    This charge suits those that are able to afford it because it charges everyone at the same rate, rich or poor.

    If you're rich you pay more, simple as, or it should be.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 615 ✭✭✭Bishop_Donal


    The Crab wrote: »
    This tax is purely regressive. It taxes people purely on what property they own, not on what they actually bring in. So a millionaire who chooses to live in a one bedroomed terraced house because that's where he grew up is taxed proportionally less than someone who owns a three bedroomed semi because they have two children and want to have a bit of space to let them play yet works his bollocks off to pay for it. It is utter nonsense.

    What it is seeking to do is put the lower income earners in a certain type of housing, i.e. rented, that pays into the hands of the rich who can afford to own more than one house and so can be a landlord. There is nothing about any Fianna Fail or Fine Gael government that is aimed at anything else. They are notoriously right wing and want the status quo maintained.

    And if you're stupid enough to believe that a country that (a)charges the Earth for fifth rate healthcare; (b)doesn't provide free education even to children (don't give me claptrap that schools are free, books which are free in the UK aren't here, and everyone knows every school demands a "contribution"; (c)charges call out rates for its emergency services; needs money for its "local services" then you deserve what you get.

    This charge suits those that are able to afford it because it charges everyone at the same rate, rich or poor.

    If you're rich you pay more, simple as, or it should be.


    and you'd prefer to continue the policy of increasing the marginal tax rate on higher earners to ensure you push them out of the country so that everyone else can ultimately suffer higher average charges.

    Unfortunately, I think your mindset will actually win this battle. Doesn't make a very pretty picture for the future of Ireland.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 95 ✭✭The Crab


    alastair wrote: »
    I don't believe I know Mr Crab, so I'm pretty sure he doesn't know how well I'm doing or otherwise. Wasn't Che a fan of property taxes in any case?

    Under completely different circumstances. How many poor of South America do you think have the means to buy their own homes. As I said, if you're rich you pay more. In South America if you own you're own home you pay property tax. Why? Because you have the money to do so. In Europe we're a little more fortunate. Many people can own their own homes, or at least aspire to. It doesn't mean that some walloping great tax that comes along demanding them to pay purely for living should deny them that opportunity. And don't be daft... no-one who was remotely other than right-wing would argue for this tax. Where do you think the money will go in the end? To pay for the fairies dancing in the garden? 800,000 households paid? AIB and Bank of Ireland just got 40,000,000 richer each.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 95 ✭✭The Crab


    and you'd prefer to continue the policy of increasing the marginal tax rate on higher earners to ensure you push them out of the country so that everyone else can ultimately suffer higher average charges.

    Unfortunately, I think your mindset will actually win this battle. Doesn't make a very pretty picture for the future of Ireland.

    Am I in favour of taxing the richer more harshly than the poor? Absolutely.

    I suppose you're in favour of cardboard boxes being handed out to anyone who hasn't made it into the elite.

    And don't forget, with the right style of government there are (a)ways of preventing people leaving and (b)getting the wealth off the rich without too much effort.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    apache6 wrote: »
    Funny you should mention Che;

    The US House of Representatives Committee on Foreign Affairs has written to the Taoiseach telling him to stop Galway City Council erecting a statue in Eyre Square to South American revolutionary Che Guevara.

    So, Sorry people of Democratic Galway - the Yanks have decided for you - that's Democracy Folks - have a nice day.
    You live in a scary place - a scary imaginary place.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 95 ✭✭The Crab


    At the end of the day, after all the propaganda put out by the capitalist governments against Communist systems I haven't seen too many cardboard boxes laid out in photos of Moscow, Berlin, Prague.

    Unlike Dublin, London, New York...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,731 ✭✭✭Bullseye1


    The Crab wrote: »
    At the end of the day, after all the propaganda put out by the capitalist governments against Communist systems I haven't seen too many cardboard boxes laid out in photos of Moscow, Berlin, Prague.

    Unlike Dublin, London, New York...

    You should visit Byrant Avenue in the Bronx. It's like Calcutta.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 95 ✭✭The Crab


    and you'd prefer to continue the policy of increasing the marginal tax rate on higher earners to ensure you push them out of the country so that everyone else can ultimately suffer higher average charges.

    Unfortunately, I think your mindset will actually win this battle. Doesn't make a very pretty picture for the future of Ireland.

    And continuing what policy exactly, I haven't seen one policy that taxes the rich more heavily than they were ever taxed, which is and always has been at practically zero percent of their earnings. 40%? Joke. Anything over 60,000 should be taxed at 95%, simple as. Can you pay for shelter of 60,000? Yes. Can you pay for heat? Yes. Can you pay for food? Yes. Ok, you want the rest. Why?


  • Registered Users Posts: 65 ✭✭apache6


    dvpower wrote: »
    You live in a scary place - a scary imaginary place.

    I do it's very scary with Fascism getting closer every day - it's called Ireland, soon to become the first member of the new EU second division - peripheral countries that can't manage themselves and have spineless politicians and some very compliant people. New Colonialism Frankfurt style.
    as Green Tea said - twinned with Nigeria - the most corrupt country in Africa - how appropriate.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 95 ✭✭The Crab


    Bullseye1 wrote: »
    You should visit Byrant Avenue in the Bronx. It's like Calcutta.

    Exactly. I'm not advocating the Stasi for a police force. Naturally I'm not. But all we're ever told about East Germany is how the Stasi were evil this and evil that. Of course, absolutely true. But I do doubt the validity of the extent that is talked about here. Since when did a rival system get good press in its enemy territory?

    But then nothing is ever mentioned about how the East Germans enjoyed one of the world's premier health systems FOR FREE. How everyone had a right to a job. How the old and the young were primary concerns.

    In capitalist countries you are one thing or another. Rich or scum. If you're rich you have all the freedoms you want, if you are poor you are trampled on. Better a system that looks after everyone than a system that looks after 1%.

    And strange how ostalgie is a big phenomenon in the former East Germany. Yet I doubt its even ever been referred to outside that area.

    The truth is Communism had its problems, but capitalism has bigger ones. A reformed version of Communism is a way forward. Capitalism has already betrayed 99% of people.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    alastair wrote: »
    Eh? You're the one who tried to pretend that motor tax wasn't a tax on car ownership - because you can keep the car in the garden without taxing it! If that's the best you can drum up, you deserve ridicule.
    Well due to a serious injury, i cant drive the car for the last 3 months. I still own it. No tax legally has to be paid. So there is no ownership tax on a car. Ridicule that if you must. But thats a fact. You could always show me the link for car ownership tax though?

    As for ridicule? Remember your grammar nazism. I thought your "final analysis" phrase was about to become "final solution".
    Why don't you toddle off and find something of mine in this thread that actually involves hypocrisy? Because you'll be wasting your time. I was quite clear on the reasons for supporting this tax, and opposing the poll tax - and if you can't get your head around that - not really my problem.


    You oppose the poll tax, and avoided paying it, but tell people here they must pay this tax, and anyone that suggests its unfair is wrong. Thats hypocracy.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    phil1nj wrote: »
    Post #7366 from the 1st half of this thread:

    alastair: I'll say pay your damn taxes - there's the actual principle.

    Post #7708:

    And as the poll tax. I was there and refused to pay

    Definition of HYPOCRITE

    1
    : a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue or religion
    2
    : a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings

    :confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:

    He is badly caught out, but his arrogance and self righteousness cant accept it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    apache6 wrote: »
    I do it's very scary with Fascism getting closer every day - it's called Ireland, soon to become the first member of the new EU second division - peripheral countries that can't manage themselves and have spineless politicians and some very compliant people. New Colonialism Frankfurt style.
    as Green Tea said - twinned with Nigeria - the most corrupt country in Africa - how appropriate.
    You're getting your politics from a satirical radio programme - figures.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 34,419 ✭✭✭✭hondasam


    Are we still talking about the Irish household charge?


This discussion has been closed.
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