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  • Options
    #212
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Not that you support the settlements or anything....
    The Israeli wrote: »
    1) what country? When has the Palestinian existed and what were its borders? (never). You will get different answers from different organizations about what should be its borders. Accordingly to Hamas and Islamic jihad there is no place for Israel. Some not sane people in the West Bank feel the same. They are also willing to kill for it.
    ......


    We know - for an a fact - what Israels borders are.


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    #213
    fasttalkerchat
    Registered Users Posts: 5,652 ✭✭✭fasttalkerchat


    The Israeli wrote: »
    1) what country? When has the Palestinian existed and what were its borders? (never). You will get different answers from different organizations about what should be its borders. Accordingly to Hamas and Islamic jihad there is no place for Israel. Some not sane people in Fatah think the same.
    2) Preventing terror, dahhh

    Israel is just a story from an old book. Any settlement that allows an Isreali state to exist is a compromise to regain some rights and dignity for to the people of Palestine. I believe that Israhell shouldn't exits but that the Zionists may have to be given some land as part of a compromise.


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    #214
    The Israeli
    Registered Users Posts: 413 ✭✭The Israeli


    Nodin wrote: »
    Why? Did they take over your bedroom? Has some looney with a glint in his eye informed you that hes there on a mission from God to take back the promised land?

    I think its the Israeli aggression in the West Bank that needs looking at, to be blunt.

    [/I]

    Not this crock again.....the settler population is now in the hundreds of thousands. I'd suggest that if Israel genuinely thinks its trading anything for peace, its doing it wrong and should perhaps consult the instructions.



    ....did you read that before you posted it?
    'Occupied People Request End To Illegal Colony-Build Shocker'. If somebody is intent on 'conceding land for peace', why would they be building colonies during peace talks? Why would they continue colony construction at all?

    that's all what you have to say? we'll it means that the quote was pretty good.
    Israel has walked the mile for peace. You can't deny that.
    I do agree that building in the territories isn't something that brings peace, but also isn't something that is going to cover the 95% of the west bank that was offered to the Palestinians not a long ago.


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    #215
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    The Israeli wrote: »
    that's all what you have to say? we'll it means that the quote was pretty good.
    Israel has walked the mile for peace.
    You can't deny that.
    .......................


    Bit hard to go on at length about such a blatant load of shite, tbh.
    Walked a mile for peace? The Israeli state never got out of the truck.
    As of December 2010, 327,750 Israelis live in the 121 officially-recognised settlements in the West Bank, 192,000 Israelis live in settlements in East Jerusalem and over 20,000 live in settlements in the Golan Heights
    http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/idf-more-than-300-000-settlers-live-in-west-bank-1.280778


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    #216
    The Israeli
    Registered Users Posts: 413 ✭✭The Israeli


    Nodin wrote: »
    Bit hard to go on at length about such a blatant load of shite, tbh.
    Walked a mile for peace? The Israeli state never got out of the truck.

    http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/idf-more-than-300-000-settlers-live-in-west-bank-1.280778

    If the Palestinians wanted peace they would have agreed to 95% of the west bank and the rest in territory swaps. Your numbers are irrelevant when talking about swaps.
    If they would have abandoned terror, engaged in talks, accepted to cancel their desire to return to the 48's borders (as it would put an end to Israel),
    and accepted the 95% + swaps solution we might have been in peace by now.

    Ahmm, Golan heights is not related to the Palestinian conflict and was won from Syria when it was used it for firing platform on the Israeli cities and villages below them, and when the Syrians planned to divert the Israeli major water source at that time.
    We all can breath and thank the Spaghetti monster for not trading it back with the Assad family for "peace" for now.


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    #217
    Tiocfaidh Armani
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,335 ✭✭✭Tiocfaidh Armani


    As of December 2010, 327,750 Israelis live in the 121 officially-recognised settlements in the West Bank, 192,000 Israelis live in settlements in East Jerusalem and over 20,000 live in settlements in the Golan Heights

    And every last one should be wiped out.

    Mod note, user banned for this gem


  • Options
    #218
    lividduck
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,250 ✭✭✭lividduck


    fasttalkerchat wrote: »
    Israel is just a story from an old book. Any settlement that allows an Isreali state to exist is a compromise to regain some rights and dignity for to the people of Palestine. I believe that Israhell shouldn't exits but that the Zionists may have to be given some land as part of a compromise.
    Israel has a perfrect right to exist and will continue to exist and take all reasonable steps to secure its citizens against attack.


  • Options
    #219
    Tiocfaidh Armani
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,335 ✭✭✭Tiocfaidh Armani


    If the Palestinians wanted peace they would have agreed to 95% of the west bank and the rest in territory swaps. Your numbers are irrelevant when talking about swaps.
    If they would have abandoned terror, engaged in talks, accepted to cancel their desire to return to the 48's borders (as it would put an end to Israel),
    and accepted the 95% + swaps solution we might have been in peace by now.

    When was this ever on the table?


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    #220
    The Israeli
    Registered Users Posts: 413 ✭✭The Israeli


    Tiocfaidh Armani wrote: »
    When was this ever on the table?

    Read page 13.
    Sir, you support wiping out people. I support wiping out people that support wiping out people.

    Thinking about it, even on this little thread I have seen similar ideas to yours.
    Is it the face of IPSC - very possible. True liberals, and human rights defenders.


  • Options
    #221
    Tiocfaidh Armani
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,335 ✭✭✭Tiocfaidh Armani


    lividduck wrote: »
    Israel has a perfrect right to exist and will continue to exist and take all reasonable steps to secure its citizens against attack.

    It hasn't got the right to take out another people's right to exist in their own state, either.

    That and their illegal settlements, which do nothing other than carve up more Palestinian land. They need to be wiped out for any chance of peace.


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    #222
    Tiocfaidh Armani
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,335 ✭✭✭Tiocfaidh Armani


    The Israeli wrote: »
    Read page 13.
    Sir, you support wiping out people. I support wiping out people that support wiping out people.

    I support settlements being wiped out. They're illegal.


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    #223
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    The Israeli wrote: »
    If the Palestinians wanted peace they would have agreed to 95% of the west bank and the rest in territory swaps. Your numbers are irrelevant when talking about swaps...


    ....sorry, I didn't mean to wreck the spin doctoring. Do continue. You're doing so well. 'All the Palestinians fault that Israels building outside its borders' right - do go on.

    You read this, I presume
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/palestine-papers
    .....you act like you haven't, but we both know you have....
    The Israeli wrote: »
    If they would have abandoned terror, engaged in talks, accepted to cancel their desire to return to the 48's borders (as it would put an end to Israel),
    and accepted the 95% + swaps solution we might have been in peace by now..

    ....you mean they should have acted like they've been acting for nearly a decade? Yeah....thats really worked out in a reduction of settlements, expansion and settler numbers, hasn't it?
    The Israeli wrote: »
    Ahmm, Golan heights is not related to the Palestinian conflict ..


    It's part of Israels colonial enterprise, so it is in a number of ways.

    The Israeli wrote: »
    ......
    We all can breath and thank the Spaghetti monster for not trading it back with the Assad family for "peace" for now.

    ....because theres two bastards in a room, and one is a worse bastard than the other, the first and lesser bastard is still a bastard....just to be clear there.


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    #224
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    lividduck wrote: »
    Israel has a perfrect right to exist and will continue to exist and take all reasonable steps to secure its citizens against attack.


    ...except stop its colonial efforts, unfortunately.


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    #225
    lividduck
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,250 ✭✭✭lividduck


    Zebra3 wrote: »
    Israel has not repeatedly conceded land for peace.

    It has illegally annexed the Golan Heights. It has illegally annexed East Jerusalem. Israel has no interest in peace. It has brought nothing but war to the Palestinian people. Since 1967, 700,000 Palestinians have been kidnapped by occupying Israeli military forces in the West Bank as they are deemed "a threat to security". This does not happen to zionists engaging in land theft which happens with the support of the Israeli state which breaks international law.

    And how many times has Israel attacked Lebanon?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre Peace loving Israel indeed.... :rolleyes:

    The Palestinians have every right to demand that Israel stops illegal jewish only colonies on their land which is against international law.
    And murdering athlethes in Munich wasn't against international law?
    Or firing 8,000+ rockets into Israel wasn't against international law?
    Or suicide bombing buses in Tel-Aviv, Jeruselem,Haifa etc, wasn't against international law?
    The terrorists who sow the wind against Israel can only expect to reap the whirlwind from Israel.


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    #226
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    The Israeli wrote: »
    If the Palestinians wanted peace they would have agreed to 95% of the west bank and the rest in territory swaps. Your numbers are irrelevant when talking about swaps.

    Care to show us the official maps of this wonderful Israeli offer.........
    The Israeli wrote: »
    If they would have abandoned terror,

    Bit rich, when Israel has never abandoned there own terror, what with the constant settler violence, and not to mention constant expansion of settlement even during peace talks. Surely both side ought to stop violence, and it is absurd to expect the Palestinians to be the only ones to stop violence while Israel constantly steals land.

    Even now in the West Bank, where Fatah are actively working with Israeli security forces, Israel is still stealing land, day in and day out. Its a simple fact that the actions of Palestinians either way seem to result in constant settlement expansion.
    The Israeli wrote: »
    engaged in talks,

    They did, even as Israel stole more and more of the land they were talking about dividing. Hardly negotiating in good faith imho.
    The Israeli wrote: »
    accepted to cancel their desire to return to the 48's borders (as it would put an end to Israel),

    Yeah, the PLO did that years ago:
    The P.L.O. And Israel: An End to Two Decades of Rejection?

    So that was all the way back in 1988, and settlement have grown a great deal since then.
    The Israeli wrote: »
    and accepted the 95% + swaps solution we might have been in peace by now.

    No such deal was ever offered.


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    #227
    fasttalkerchat
    Registered Users Posts: 5,652 ✭✭✭fasttalkerchat


    lividduck wrote: »
    Israel has a perfrect right to exist and will continue to exist and take all reasonable steps to secure its citizens against attack.

    Did this right come from story books too?
    Israhell's Reasonable Steps:
    http://www.un.int/wcm/webdav/site/palestine/shared/images/israeli-wall14.jpg
    http://www.terrasantalibera.org/a3.jpg
    http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_llgp4mMpT41qjk8bzo1_500.jpg
    http://lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com/photos/uncategorized/dailymail_humanshield.jpg
    http://www.rachelcorrie.org/racheladpic_files/image002.jpg


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    #228
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    The Israeli wrote: »
    Sir, you support wiping out people.

    Nasty lie right there. No such thing was said by anyone.

    Settlement aren't people firstly. Secondly there all every single last one of them illegal. Now seeing as you are against them, you should have no issues with them being dismantled....... Unless of course, your only saying your against them.


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    #229
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    lividduck wrote: »
    And murdering athlethes in Munich wasn't against international law?
    Or firing 8,000+ rockets into Israel wasn't against international law?
    Or suicide bombing buses in Tel-Aviv, Jeruselem,Haifa etc, wasn't against international law?
    The terrorists who sow the wind against Israel can only expect to reap the whirlwind from Israel.

    I'd imagine thats much the spirit that guided the Palestinians who carried out the attacks.

    Do you support Israels policy of colonising the West Bank, Arab East Jerusalem etc?


  • Options
    #230
    fasttalkerchat
    Registered Users Posts: 5,652 ✭✭✭fasttalkerchat


    On the issue of settlements I believe that if they have the correct immigration clearance to be in Palestine and they get planning permission etc. they should be allowed to remain. Since the vast majority of Jewish people on Palestinian land have a right to be their because they were born their their is a responsibility on the Palestinian authority to accommodate them in terms of housing etc.


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    #231
    The Israeli
    Registered Users Posts: 413 ✭✭The Israeli


    lividduck wrote: »
    And murdering athlethes in Munich wasn't against international law?
    Or firing 8,000+ rockets into Israel wasn't against international law?
    Or suicide bombing buses in Tel-Aviv, Jeruselem,Haifa etc, wasn't against international law?
    The terrorists who sow the wind against Israel can only expect to reap the whirlwind from Israel.

    He also forgets to mention what led to the Lebanese war - Palestinian terror nests in Lebanon that committed attacks on the Israeli northern cities.
    I can get you many of their mentioning but it's totally irrelevant.
    He also forgets to introduce Hezbollah ("forgets")

    He forgets to mention that Christian Lebanese committed the Massacre of Sabra and Shetila However, Israel could prevent it. A grave mistake, but blaming Israel for doing it by itself is "slightly" too much. That what do people who want to find faults in Israel. They dig out events from 25+ years ago.
    They also forget that I can dig out much more, and more severe but I think that that is generally irrelevant.


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    #232
    fasttalkerchat
    Registered Users Posts: 5,652 ✭✭✭fasttalkerchat


    The Israeli wrote: »
    He also forgets to mention what led to the Lebanese war - Palestinian terror nests in Lebanon that committed attacks on the Israeli northern cities.
    I can get you many of their mentioning but it's totally irrelevant.
    He also forgets to introduce Hezbollah ("forgets")

    He forgets to mention that Christian Lebanese committed the Massacre of Sabra and Shetila However, Israel could prevent it. A grave mistake, but blaming Israel for doing it by itself is "slightly" too much. That what do people who want to find faults in Israel. They dig out events from 25+ years ago.
    They also forget that I can dig out much more, and more severe but I think that that is generally irrelevant.
    The IDF may not have directly pulled the trigger but certainly they did surround the camp and provide flares to the killers.
    The Israel Defense Forces surrounded the Palestinian refugee camps, controlled access to them, and facilitated the massacre by firing illuminating flares over the camps.[5][6] In 1982, an independent commission chaired by Sean MacBride concluded that the Israeli authorities or forces were, directly or indirectly, responsible for the events.


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    #233
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    fasttalkerchat wrote: »
    On the issue of settlements I believe that if they have the correct immigration clearance to be in Palestine and they get planning permission etc. they should be allowed to remain. Since the vast majority of Jewish people on Palestinian land have a right to be their because they were born their their is a responsibility on the Palestinian authority to accommodate them in terms of housing etc.

    Well, actually they don't have any responsibility, as they are all Israeli citizens. Israel are the ones who have a responsibility for there own citizens. BTW, they have no right to be there, as all settlement are completely illegal, and all the settlers have no right to be on Palestinian land. Also, not all countries confer citizenship, soley on the virtue of being born some place.

    Now, Abbas has said that some settlers can become Palestinian citizens:
    PA: Settlers can become Palestinian citizens

    Now, I think this is a good idea, and it can certainly help sort out some of the land issues as well.

    However, the Palestinians are under no obligation to give any of the settlers citizenship, as they are all there illegally, and even if they are born in the West Bank, there still Israeli citizens.


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    #234
    The Israeli
    Registered Users Posts: 413 ✭✭The Israeli


    wes wrote: »

    No such deal was ever offered.

    There are several sources. All in hebrew. One of them concidered to be reliable in your eyes as you quote often from it:

    http://www.haaretz.co.il/news/politics/1.1295350

    http://www.heskem.org.il/sources-view.asp?id=835&meid=43
    http://www.nrg.co.il/online/1/ART2/203/770.html?hp=1&loc=1&tmp=5438
    http://www.nrg.co.il/online/1/ART2/203/860.html

    try to google it in English: Ehud Olmert / Ehud Barak land swaps.

    And well well:
    here, there is even a map that makes sense (not the green one that you like)
    http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/09/12/opinion/mapping-mideast-peace.html


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    #235
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    The Israeli wrote: »
    There are several sources. All in hebrew. One of them concidered to be reliable in your eyes as you quote often from it:

    http://www.haaretz.co.il/news/politics/1.1295350

    http://www.heskem.org.il/sources-view.asp?id=835&meid=43
    http://www.nrg.co.il/online/1/ART2/203/770.html?hp=1&loc=1&tmp=5438
    http://www.nrg.co.il/online/1/ART2/203/860.html

    Sources in a language I can't read (not to mention the vast majority of posters can't read).... Completely worthless. If such a deal existed, then I find it hard to believe not a single english language news outlet reported on it.

    Also, I notice a suspicous lack of official maps as wel, and in fact those links contain no maps at all. Strange that such a deal was offered but did not feature any maps, from any of your foreign language new souces. How very, very odd...... Its seem to me that you are being less than truthful (no maps, news stories in a foreign language), much like Israel claims of a great deal (a great deal according to Israel), and a deal that has no maps to go with it. So we have no way of verifying Israels claims, now do we, and imho the lack of a map from those making the claims, is really rather telling.

    Also you can take a look at the Palestine papers, which show in great detail how fair the Palestinains were willing to go for peace, how they were frustrated:

    The Palestine Papers

    Lots of details there, including plenty pf maps. Something your claims lacked. Also, its in a language that everyone on the forum can read. What with this being an english language forum for the most part.


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    #236
    fasttalkerchat
    Registered Users Posts: 5,652 ✭✭✭fasttalkerchat


    wes wrote: »
    Well, actually they don't have any responsibility, as they are all Israeli citizens. Israel are the ones who have a responsibility for there own citizens. BTW, they have no right to be there, as all settlement are completely illegal, and all the settlers have no right to be on Palestinian land. Also, not all countries confer citizenship, soley on the virtue of being born some place.

    Now, Abbas has said that some settlers can become Palestinian citizens:
    PA: Settlers can become Palestinian citizens

    Now, I think this is a good idea, and it can certainly help sort out some of the land issues as well.

    However, the Palestinians are under no obligation to give any of the settlers citizenship, as they are all there illegally, and even if they are born in the West Bank, there still Israeli citizens.

    I differ with you because I believe that you can't really be an Israeli citizen. If the Zionists are given a piece of land to set up a state as part of a piece settlement then their would be a situation where individuals would have to decide whether to remain in Palestine or to move to Zionist-land.
    The people who choose to remain in Palestine should IMO be offered citizenship and the Palestinian authority would have a responsibility to provide for them.


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    #237
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    fasttalkerchat wrote: »
    The people who choose to remain in Palestine should IMO be offered citizenship and the Palestinian authority would have a responsibility to provide for them.

    As I said, Abbas has said as much, and I do think its a good idea, but they are under no obligation of offer citizenship. They did make such a offer, as part of the peace negotiations, so we don't differ all that much. The whole thing however doesn't matter, as any peace deal is dead for the forseeable future, and the settlements may permanently kill one.


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    #238
    The Israeli
    Registered Users Posts: 413 ✭✭The Israeli


    wes, I included an english source and a map.
    http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/09/12/opinion/mapping-mideast-peace.html


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    #239
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    The Israeli wrote: »
    wes, I included an english source and a map.
    http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/09/12/opinion/mapping-mideast-peace.html

    I didn't see your edit.

    Also, from your own link:
    A two-state solution is the only viable solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and therefore negotiators must take a close look at the land swaps necessary for a negotiated settlement. These maps outline three possible land-swap scenarios, followed by a map of the Geneva Initiative for comparison.

    You are being dishonest once again. These maps are not any kind of Israeli offer, but rather an op-ed, about how to reconcile the difference between the 2 sides. Seriously, at this point, I can't believe a word your saying.


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    #240
    fasttalkerchat
    Registered Users Posts: 5,652 ✭✭✭fasttalkerchat


    The Israeli wrote: »
    wes, I included an english source and a map.
    http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/09/12/opinion/mapping-mideast-peace.html

    http://www.classwarfareexists.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/israel-palestine_map.jpg
    Look at my image and tell me where the Zionists get their logic?


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    #241
    brimal
    Registered Users Posts: 1,216 ✭✭✭brimal


    brimal wrote: »
    The aggressive nature of the pro-Palestinian movement in Ireland needs to be addressed.

    Another recent example would be the personal abuse and intimidation thrown towards film-maker Nicky Larkin after his recent articles in the Indo. He had gone from pro-Palestinian to pro-Israel stance after spending several weeks in both areas.

    Some of the harassment he received was shocking.


    Then you also have one of the movement's mouthpieces, who I won't name, burning Israel flags in public, assaulting a Guard, banned from half of Dublin, etc. - not a good look.

    Would anyone like to stay on topic and address this point?

    Nicky Larkin received torrents of abuse and intimidation off the 'peaceful' pro-Palestinian movement in Ireland.

    I would like to ask the defenders of this movement - do you think there is a problem within the movement of over-aggressive campaigning (Intimidating/threatening messages on social media, burning of Israel flags in public, etc.) - or is this all fair game in your fight against Israel?


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