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The unfolding story in Tuam

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  • 06-06-2014 8:45pm
    #1
    My name is URL
    Registered Users Posts: 25,058 ✭✭✭✭


    I have a few questions about how things are being done.

    How come Gardai aren't doing any sort of investigation?

    Why in the name of feck, is a potentially huge crime-scene not being secured by Gardai?

    If they can't launch an investigation at present then fine, but it is still a potential crime scene, right? What happens if potential evidence is interfered with?

    There are reports on RTE that a private firm have been drafted in by the Irish Daily Mail to do a radar examination
    A private engineering company has carried out a subsurface radar examination of the site at the former Bons Secours mother-and-baby home in Tuam, Co Galway.

    The examination follows reports of an unmarked mass grave at the former Catholic church-run home, where almost 800 children died between 1925 and 1961.


    TST Engineering was commissioned to do the work by the Irish Mail on Sunday.
    The world's media are in Tuam and there's not a Garda to be seen around the site. It's bizarre. Surely they could at least secure the area until a decision is made on whether or not an investigation is launched?


«13456

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    #2
    bravestar
    Registered Users Posts: 1,082 ✭✭✭bravestar


    Are you just venting ? Or do you actually expect that the average Garda, or any garda, on here has the answer to your question.


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    #3
    My name is URL
    Registered Users Posts: 25,058 ✭✭✭✭My name is URL


    bravestar wrote: »
    Are you just venting ? Or do you actually expect that the average Garda, or any garda, on here has the answer to your question.

    A little bit of both tbh.

    I'm genuinely bemused by the fact that there is no Garda presence at the scene. A tabloid newspaper has conducted a forensic survey before our own police force has even showed up... and in view of world media.

    I mean, it's not good is it?


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    #4
    rotun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 303 ✭✭rotun


    bravestar wrote: »
    do you actually expect that the average Garda, or any garda, on here has the answer to your question.
    it would be an insight to get an opinion of someone who has experience of these situations.

    There's no answers in after hours, only venting.
    If I personally knew any Gardaí, I'd ask them, but I don't..


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    #5
    bravestar
    Registered Users Posts: 1,082 ✭✭✭bravestar


    My name is URL wrote: »
    A little bit of both tbh.

    I'm genuinely bemused by the fact that there is no Garda presence at the scene. A tabloid newspaper has conducted a forensic survey before our own police force has even showed up... and in view of world media.

    I mean, it's not good is it?

    I get what your saying.
    rotun wrote: »
    it would be an insight to get an opinion of someone who has experience of these situations.

    There's no answers in after hours, only venting.
    If I personally knew any Gardaí, I'd ask them, but I don't..

    The only Gardai who could give you any sort of an informed opinion are ones in the very top echelons. Yes, the mules are the ones who preserve scenes, but they are not the ones who make decisions about such things. That is my opinion, as someone who has experience of these situations.


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    #6
    NordieSteve
    Closed Accounts Posts: 326 ✭✭NordieSteve


    They are barely capable of solving a crossword puzzle.


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    #7
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    The Gardaí investigate crime with a view to prosecutions. There is no possibility of prosecutions in this case. That's the long and the short of it. I'm curious as to what evidence you think could be obtained from digging up all those bodies? Do you think there will be forensics after half a century in a septic tank? Even if you went by the standards set in shows like CSI and Bones you'd be stretching it. I'm also curious as to what crimes people think could be investigated. Was there even a law against child neglect back then?


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    #8
    Bongalongherb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,766 ✭✭✭Bongalongherb


    In all fairness, the scene should be protected. In protected, I mean by the Gardai, as to the preservation of this crime scene regardless of age. It should be monitored at all times by a branch of the Gardai at least.


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    #9
    Phoebas
    Registered Users Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    NordieSteve wrote: »
    They are barely capable of solving a cross ward puzzle.

    Because their spelling is so poor?


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    #10
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Interpol at this stage I think.


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    #11
    My name is URL
    Registered Users Posts: 25,058 ✭✭✭✭My name is URL


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    The Gardaí investigate crime with a view to prosecutions. There is no possibility of prosecutions in this case. That's the long and the short of it. I'm curious as to what evidence you think could be obtained from digging up all those bodies? Do you think there will be forensics after half a century in a septic tank? Even if you went by the standards set in shows like CSI and Bones you'd be stretching it. I'm also curious as to what crimes people think could be investigated. Was there even a law against child neglect back then?

    I don't even know where to start with that reply.. so I won't


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    #12
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    NordieSteve wrote: »
    They are barely capable of solving a cross ward puzzle.
    Phoebas wrote: »
    Because their spelling is so poor?

    Cross Ward............ a lot of Cross wards in Tuam.

    Try not to think so linear, Phoebas.


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    #13
    Shady Tady
    Registered Users Posts: 543 ✭✭✭Shady Tady


    mikom wrote: »
    Cross Ward............ a lot of Cross wards in Tuam.

    Try not to think so linear, Phoebas.

    A few back wards as well!


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    #14
    NordieSteve
    Closed Accounts Posts: 326 ✭✭NordieSteve


    :o


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    #15
    roadsmart
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 625 ✭✭✭roadsmart


    AGS investigate criminal matters. I don't think any criminal allegation is suspected in relation to this grave, rather it is a matter of bad treatment by the state and a religious institution in the times that were in it. IMO therefore they wouldn't have a function.


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    #16
    Mycroft H
    Registered Users Posts: 9,316 ✭✭✭Mycroft H


    roadsmart wrote: »
    AGS investigate criminal matters. I don't think any criminal allegation is suspected in relation to this grave, rather it is a matter of bad treatment by the state and a religious institution in the times that were in it. IMO therefore they wouldn't have a function.

    I'm pretty sure some acts even then would have been defined as criminal on the statute books.


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    #17
    roadsmart
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 625 ✭✭✭roadsmart


    Mycroft H wrote: »
    I'm pretty sure some acts even then would have been defined as criminal on the statute books.

    What acts though? There's been no allegations of a criminal nature made so far as far as I can see.


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    #18
    My name is URL
    Registered Users Posts: 25,058 ✭✭✭✭My name is URL


    roadsmart wrote: »
    What acts though? There's been no allegations of a criminal nature made so far as far as I can see.

    The death of at least one child was reported to Gardai
    The repeated we-know-nothing stance by the gardaí is especially strange given that the original article in the Irish Mail on Sunday reported that the family of one of the children who died at the home had already reported it to the gardaí.

    I can't find the original Mail article but the above quote comes from The Journal

    http://www.thejournal.ie/explainer-tuam-babies-1502773-Jun2014/


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    #19
    Resonator75
    Closed Accounts Posts: 258 ✭✭Resonator75


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    The Gardaí investigate crime with a view to prosecutions. There is no possibility of prosecutions in this case. That's the long and the short of it. I'm curious as to what evidence you think could be obtained from digging up all those bodies? Do you think there will be forensics after half a century in a septic tank? Even if you went by the standards set in shows like CSI and Bones you'd be stretching it. I'm also curious as to what crimes people think could be investigated. Was there even a law against child neglect back then?


    What a ridiculous , deflecting post.

    How can you be the judge of if a prosecution is possible?

    Based on what knowledge?

    Some of these people invlioved may well be alive. Thats why we need some action from out police force.


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    #20
    Resonator75
    Closed Accounts Posts: 258 ✭✭Resonator75


    roadsmart wrote: »
    AGS investigate criminal matters. I don't think any criminal allegation is suspected in relation to this grave, rather it is a matter of bad treatment by the state and a religious institution in the times that were in it. IMO therefore they wouldn't have a function.


    Well '"I dont think" does not cut it.

    If a mass grave was found in my back garden you can be damn sure it would be declared a crime scene until the facts are established.

    This needs to be done in Tuam even if to prove in the end that there is actually nothing to see here.

    Garda, theists and the government want to skip to the move along now phase without lifting a finger.

    Shameful. Yet another stain on the Garda (top brass, not popping at the folks on the ground).


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    #21
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    My name is URL wrote: »
    The death of at least one child was reported to Gardai



    I can't find the original Mail article but the above quote comes from The Journal

    http://www.thejournal.ie/explainer-tuam-babies-1502773-Jun2014/

    Death isn't a crime. People, even children, die all the time. For a criminal investigation there has to be a suspicion of an actual crime. A crime that was in existence at the time.
    Resonator75 wrote: »
    What a ridiculous , deflecting post.

    How can you be the judge of if a prosecution is possible?

    Based on what knowledge?

    Some of these people invlioved may well be alive. Thats why we need some action from out police force.

    It's pretty easy to judge if a prosecution would be possible. You're talking about prosecuting people in their eighties with no evidence other than a death cert. You can stamp your feet and look for someones head to roll if you want. It won't change anything. Nobody will face a criminal court for what happened to those children. Too much time has passed. You have to accept that fact.

    The only thing we can hope for is the truth. A criminal trial is not the place for getting that in this kind of situation. Criminal courts are restricted by the laws of evidence and the media can only report what is allowed, which is not a lot when it comes to child victims. A public enquiry is the only way we might learn the truth. And any survivors can then use what is discovered in a civil case against the church.


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    #22
    Resonator75
    Closed Accounts Posts: 258 ✭✭Resonator75


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    Death isn't a crime. People, even children, die all the time. For a criminal investigation there has to be a suspicion of an actual crime. A crime that was in existence at the time.



    It's pretty easy to judge if a prosecution would be possible. You're talking about prosecuting people in their eighties with no evidence other than a death cert. You can stamp your feet and look for someones head to roll if you want. It won't change anything. Nobody will face a criminal court for what happened to those children. Too much time has passed. You have to accept that fact.

    The only thing we can hope for is the truth. A criminal trial is not the place for getting that in this kind of situation. Criminal courts are restricted by the laws of evidence and the media can only report what is allowed, which is not a lot when it comes to child victims. A public enquiry is the only way we might learn the truth. And any survivors can then use what is discovered in a civil case against the church.

    Well maybe it should be looked into before the outcome is decided as you have done. Im not asking for a criminal trial, if that was an outcome, so be it.

    I am asking for the basic standard investigation to establish EXACTLY what happened. Like what would happen in most first world countries if a police force got wind of this.
    .
    You seem to know exactly what the fact are already.

    Tell me, what would happen if a load of skeletons were found in my septic tank please?


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    #23
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    Resonator75 wrote: »
    Well maybe it should be looked into before the outcome is decided as you have done. Im not asking for a criminal trial, I am asking for the basis of an investigation to establish EXACTLY what happened.

    You seem to know exactly what the fact are already.

    Tell me, what would happen if a load of skeletons were found in my septic tank please?

    I suppose that depends on whether your septic tank was used as a graveyard for 50 years.

    Everybody knows what the facts are. Women and children were sent to these workhouses and lived in terrible conditions resulting in a high mortality rate. The bodies of those that died were unceremoniously buried nearby instead of in a church graveyard because all of society deemed them as lesser people.


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    #24
    Resonator75
    Closed Accounts Posts: 258 ✭✭Resonator75


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    I suppose that depends on whether your septic tank was used as a graveyard for 50 years.

    Everybody knows what the facts are. Women and children were sent to these workhouses and lived in terrible conditions resulting in a high mortality rate. The bodies of those that died were unceremoniously buried nearby instead of in a church graveyard because all of society deemed them as lesser people.


    Complete Nonsense, I hope you are not a Garda.

    We do not know what the facts are. Thats the whole point. We have allegations and assumptions.

    How many bodies are in there?

    Who signed off on this?

    Where are the records?

    What time period did this occur between?

    I've heard what happened could have been right up until the 1970's. I was alive in the 70's.

    This COULD BE is recent stuff. We are still hunting Nazi's FFS, and rightly so.

    This is why we need an investigation. Can you not see this?

    This go back to sleep Ireland, nothing to see, attitude makes me sick. Scary stuff altogether.

    Now, answer me , what would happen if a Charnel pit were found in my back garden?


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    #25
    My name is URL
    Registered Users Posts: 25,058 ✭✭✭✭My name is URL


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    I suppose that depends on whether your septic tank was used as a graveyard for 50 years.

    Do you not at least think that Gardai should be present at the site? There are scores of reporters there from all over the world and it looks terrible that our police force don't appear to be bothered enough to show up.

    Whatever about any future investigation, is it not still a potential crime scene? The fact that a tabloid has hired a company to do radar searches before Gardai have even examined the area is quite simply shameful.


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    #26
    carpejugulum
    Registered Users Posts: 523 ✭✭✭carpejugulum


    roadsmart wrote: »
    AGS investigate criminal matters. I don't think any criminal allegation is suspected in relation to this grave, rather it is a matter of bad treatment by the state and a religious institution in the times that were in it. IMO therefore they wouldn't have a function.
    mass murder by the church = bad treatment


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    #27
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    Resonator75 wrote: »

    This go back to sleep Ireland, nothing to see, attitude makes me sick. Scary stuff altogether.

    Now, answer me , what would happen if a Charnel pit were found in my back garden?

    Forget the Charnel pit.
    What if you had a bog in your back garden and you began to cut it......

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Gju6KnSeI8


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    #28
    Resonator75
    Closed Accounts Posts: 258 ✭✭Resonator75


    My name is URL wrote: »
    Do you not at least think that Gardai should be present at the site? There are scores of reporters there from all over the world and it looks terrible that our police force don't appear to be bothered enough to show up.

    Whatever about any future investigation, is it not still a potential crime scene? The fact that a tabloid has hired a company to do radar searches before Gardai have even examined the area is quite simply shameful.


    It is beyond shame. Our authorities are treating the victims and the public with total contempt.

    An Garda Siochana :Hand in glove with the church when this was happening.

    That's why nothing is being done.


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    #29
    Resonator75
    Closed Accounts Posts: 258 ✭✭Resonator75


    mikom wrote: »
    Forget the Charnel pit.
    What if you had a bog in your back garden and you began to cut it......

    Yeah, lots of rinky-dink pot busts to be carried out this weekend in Tuam.

    Good to see they got their priorities in order.


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    #30
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    Resonator75 wrote: »
    This go back to sleep Ireland, nothing to see, attitude makes me sick. Scary stuff altogether.

    I understand that this is a very emotive issue so I'll ignore the insults. At no point did I suggest going to sleep. I specifically stated a public enquiry should be held so that the most amount of information could be obtained. Do you really want to know what happened there or do you just want something to direct your anger at, because that's all a criminal trial would accomplish.


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    #31
    Resonator75
    Closed Accounts Posts: 258 ✭✭Resonator75


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    I understand that this is a very emotive issue so I'll ignore the insults. At no point did I suggest going to sleep. I specifically stated a public enquiry should be held so that the most amount of information could be obtained. Do you really want to know what happened there or do you just want something to direct your anger at, because that's all a criminal trial would accomplish.

    I did not insult anyone. Yeah,by all means lets have an inquiry. But maybe secure the bloody scene first so we can have a well founded inquiry??

    The Garda are deeply complicit in this.

    We want some simple basic police work carried out here.

    Thats what they are there for.

    If you fail to see this then its yet another reason that I have no confidence in our national police force.

    Its black and white. What would happen in the exact same situation in the UK?

    and by the way, Id be slammed in the clink if a load of bodies were found in my garden until it was established what had happened.

    Why is this different?


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