New Children's Hospital at Mater site

L1011 · 26-02-2012 8:15pm

Milk & Honey wrote: »

Take the M50 to Lucan from the Red Cow and travel along the N4 to the Mater?
Easily an hour during the day. There are numerous traffic lights. 80kmh is only going to be achieved on the more remote outer sections. Near the City, St Johns Road and the quays are often very slow. Coming off the quays and up North King street is also a slow route. Alternatively Conyngham Road and Infirmary Road brings you through Phibsboro. I wouldn't like to do it with a hospital patient in need of urgent attention in the car.

Red Cow to Lucan has occasional queues for traffic going the opposite way (West not East). Never seen any queues for traffic going east, in to the city.

80km/h is easily achievable inbound all through Chapeliziod and Ballyfermot - not really "remote outer sections", considering the comparable distance out on the former N7 is crawling through Inchicore. There are TWO sets of traffic lights between the M50 and Johns Road West.

Ambulances and anyone else willing to use bus lanes for emergencies have a bus lane for the entire route bar Church Street.

Milk & Honey · 26-02-2012 9:11pm

MYOB wrote: »

Red Cow to Lucan has occasional queues for traffic going the opposite way (West not East). Never seen any queues for traffic going east, in to the city.

80km/h is easily achievable inbound all through Chapeliziod and Ballyfermot - not really "remote outer sections", considering the comparable distance out on the former N7 is crawling through Inchicore. There are TWO sets of traffic lights between the M50 and Johns Road West.

Ambulances and anyone else willing to use bus lanes for emergencies have a bus lane for the entire route bar Church Street.

Johns Road itself has four sets of lights. After that the quays. Church Street can be very slow. Not everyone will be in a position to crash red lights and use the bus lanes.

Davidth88 · 26-02-2012 9:17pm

John_Rambo wrote: »

I don't have they answers, but whatever happens, I genuinely hope your kid does well and my thoughts and other posters thoughts (I'm sure) are with you. I can't think of any way to help you, but if you need any advice, the Dublin forum is very helpful for parking, cheap hotels/hostels/short term apartments etc... If you have any fundraiser info, please post it up or PM me, I'd by happy to help.

Goodness me , thanks for the thoughts , thankfully my daughter is doing well , and we have nothing to complain about compared to many in the hospital. We live locally enough and we have plenty of contacts in the hospital .

Thanks again

Corkblowin · 27-02-2012 12:41am

BrianD wrote: »

ABP have made a bad decision on this that is not in the public interest and based on a thinking that belongs in the dark ages. I think it's safe to say that there'll be no National Childrens Hospital for at least a decade.

I have to totally disagree with this. The scheme did not comply with the dublin city development plan, with the Dublin city height strategy or with the mount joy/phibsboro local area plan. Aside from that it would have had a massive visual impact on O'Connell street and the historic Georgian core. The primary public transport scheme on which it was based (metro north) is not going ahead & the inspector had doubts over the validity of the traffic study.

We've had the country ruined by ignoring spatial plans and disregarding the proper planning of the country - so I'm happy that it hasnt been granted for political reasons - unlike the decision to proceed with this site.

As I've said earlier in this thread - the building proposed does not fit on the site - solution is to get more space around the mater or find the most suitable alternative site.

I always try to assess public schemes by comparing them with how the same development by a private developer would be received - & there is no way on earth that a scheme even 50% this ones size would be granted permission.

Emotive language notwithstanding - in planning terms it was the correct decision.

L1011 · 27-02-2012 8:53am

Milk & Honey wrote: »

Johns Road itself has four sets of lights. After that the quays. Church Street can be very slow. Not everyone will be in a position to crash red lights and use the bus lanes.

Similar problems exist on the way to Crumlin.

As always, there is ridiculous hyperbole about how "impossible" it will be to get the Mater site.

lucernarian · 27-02-2012 11:08am

I think that while issues with traffic in going to the Mater might be exaggerated, I think it's fair to say that it fares poorly in this regard compared to Tallaght and also IMO Crumlin.

What lowish-cost (i.e. not having to build tunnels) options are there to improve ease of access to the Mater site?

robd · 27-02-2012 11:56am

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

I think that while issues with traffic in going to the Mater might be exaggerated, I think it's fair to say that it fares poorly in this regard compared to Tallaght and also IMO Crumlin.

What lowish-cost (i.e. not having to build tunnels) options are there to improve ease of access to the Mater site?

The only lowish cost option would be to properly develop Drumcondra Road/Dorset Steet QBC to be high quality 24 hour QBC. That means CPOing buildings at pinch points and widening street to a proper 2+2 road from the M1 to Eccles St.. Would likely mean a number of left turns on Dorest St, would need to be removed (or else more CPOing buildings to create extra lane that doesn't mean QBC disappears at junctions.

Cat And Cage pub is an example of where demolition would need to take place.

Cat.And.Cage.png

Not cheap or pretty but cheaper than a tunnel.

bk · 27-02-2012 12:05pm

robd wrote: »

The only lowish cost option would be to properly develop Drumcondra Road/Dorset Steet QBC to be high quality 24 hour QBC. That means CPOing buildings at pinch points and widening street to a proper 2+2 road from the M1 to Eccles St.. Would likely mean a number of left turns on Dorest St, would need to be removed (or else more CPOing buildings to create extra lane that doesn't mean QBC disappears at junctions.

To be honest, even if the Mater doesn't go ahead, this should be done anyway, specially now that MN isn't going ahead.

BTW you wouldn't necessary need to CPO The Cat & The Cage, instead CPO land from the College on the other side of the street. It is mostly just gardens and service utilities.

L1011 · 27-02-2012 1:30pm

The Cat & Cage was in NAMA last time I checked (via Quinn). There's a solicitors next door that isn't, however.

Also, works are underway to figure out what to do there:

http://www.leovaradkar.ie/?p=1462

D'Peoples Voice · 27-02-2012 2:42pm

Milk & Honey wrote: »

Take the M50 to Lucan from the Red Cow and travel along the N4 to the Mater?
Easily an hour during the day. There are numerous traffic lights. 80kmh is only going to be achieved on the more remote outer sections..

Ah FFS, if my child was sick, I'd be taking the M50 all the way to the exit of the Port Tunnel at the Point Village, then take the East Wall Road/Clonliffe Road to Drumcondra, and then take Dorset Street into Temple Street.
I reckon you could do that in 30 mins from Lucan

Who said anything about going via Hueston Station/the Quays?

BrianD · 27-02-2012 3:25pm

ninja900 wrote: »

13min Red Cow to Tallaght - credible - it's motorway most of the way - could take longer if there are traffic delays - but unlikely to be more than double that at worst

18min Red Cow to Mater - completely not credible. 50km/h limits (except for a short 60km/h stretch) and lots and lots of traffic lights. That's not even taking traffic congestion into account. Under adverse circumstances this journey could easily take over an hour.

Simply not credible at all. More lies, spin and bull***t which has surrounded the choice of the Mater site from the start. This whole project is yet another Bertie Ahern con job which serves neither the taxpayer nor our children well.

NB I'm not accusing you of lying Brian, I'm assuming you provided that figure in good faith, you got that figure from somewhere - but I don't think whoever made that 18min claim in the first place was acting in good faith.

Take it up with Google then. Used their trip planner. Anyway, it's really immaterial as the journey times are not really that important but it does knock the "greenfield site in Tallaght" is best for accessibility arguement on the head. It simply isn't. Tallaght is not the most convenient place to get to off the M50 and I say that who commuted there for years.

Irrespective who selected the Mater site, it still stacks up on as the site that ticks the boxes across all criteria.

BrianD · 27-02-2012 3:28pm

Milk & Honey wrote: »

You have missed the new hospital on the Elm park site. Built by McNamara and never opened. It is the building visible from the Merrion Road. There is at least one other vacant building on the site. It is controlled by NAMA. Could be got going and linked into Vincents very quickly.

Is this the site that would be closer to the Tara Towers Hotel?

Anyway, accepting a "not-build-as-a-childrens-hospital-but-will-do-the-job" is not the way forward.

This hospital needs to be purpose built from scratch.

Hotblack Desiato · 27-02-2012 4:28pm

BrianD wrote: »

Take it up with Google then. Used their trip planner.

You used Google's trip planner to prove that the access problem to the Mater doesn't exist? Seriously?

Anyway, it's really immaterial as the journey times are not really that important

Bait and switch. Which is it, the Mater has good access, or journey times don't matter?

Irrespective who selected the Mater site, it still stacks up on as the site that ticks the boxes across all criteria.

If you ignore the fact that the site is in the wrong place and far too small, then yeah it's great!

corktina · 27-02-2012 8:47pm

LaFlammeRouge wrote: »

Tallaght would be a good spot. I think there is a lot of academic politics involved in the decision too. It it goes to the Mater it comes under UCD control, if it goes to St James or Tallaght then TCD.

TCD ftw

Davidth88 · 28-02-2012 9:11am

Guys,

If you have a day surgery ( the busiest ward in the hospital ) , then you are usually asked to report at 07:45 ( for the morning session ) .

I turn off the N4 to the M50 SB at about 07:00 every morning , and the queue for Palmerstown ( or Palmerston as we are meant to call it now

) is back up to Liffey Valley more often than not.

I have driven to Temple St on a number of occasions for the time in the morning, from M50/N4 to the door takes about 45-50 mins AT LEAST. Then you need to find parking , I usually drop my wife/child at the door and park the car but if you are on your own you don't have that luxury.

Driving there for OP appts is a nightmare , because you cannot predict the traffic at all , some days it will take 20 mins from the M50 , some days up to 1 hr.

The most stressful thing , finding parking , and worrying about the cost. I usually park in Cleary's now , that costs up to 25 euro PER DAY. My daughter was in for 1 wk before Christmas , my parking bill alone was over 100 euro.

You cannot park on the street near there , although there is often space because
a) You are limited to 3 hrs only
b) TBH , I would not leave my car around there , it's one SCARY place.

BrianD · 28-02-2012 10:27am

ninja900 wrote: »

You used Google's trip planner to prove that the access problem to the Mater doesn't exist? Seriously?

Bait and switch. Which is it, the Mater has good access, or journey times don't matter?

If you ignore the fact that the site is in the wrong place and far too small, then yeah it's great!

Yes and being a Dublin resident. I deal with fact not fiction.

The hospital was being in the right place for all the right reasons. It has good access and while I'm sure other sites might have better access it's really immaterial. Access is not the issues. The Mater hospital site is readily accessible.

BrianD · 28-02-2012 10:28am

Davidth88 wrote: »

Guys,

If you have a day surgery ( the busiest ward in the hospital ) , then you are usually asked to report at 07:45 ( for the morning session ) .

I turn off the N4 to the M50 SB at about 07:00 every morning , and the queue for Palmerstown ( or Palmerston as we are meant to call it now ) is back up to Liffey Valley more often than not.

I have driven to Temple St on a number of occasions for the time in the morning, from M50/N4 to the door takes about 45-50 mins AT LEAST. Then you need to find parking , I usually drop my wife/child at the door and park the car but if you are on your own you don't have that luxury.

Driving there for OP appts is a nightmare , because you cannot predict the traffic at all , some days it will take 20 mins from the M50 , some days up to 1 hr.

The most stressful thing , finding parking , and worrying about the cost. I usually park in Cleary's now , that costs up to 25 euro PER DAY. My daughter was in for 1 wk before Christmas , my parking bill alone was over 100 euro.

You cannot park on the street near there , although there is often space because
a) You are limited to 3 hrs only
b) TBH , I would not leave my car around there , it's one SCARY place.

Most hospitals charge for parking and I suspect the Mater will too. No problem with parking on-street in the area other than the time limit.

Davidth88 · 28-02-2012 10:37am

BrianD wrote: »

Most hospitals charge for parking and I suspect the Mater will too. No problem with parking on-street in the area other than the time limit.

If you read through my posts , I would advocate placing this hospital near the M50 with public transport links , for example Newlands Cross ( with Luas ext ).

I regard hospitals charging for parking as evil TBH. I believe its abolished at NHS hospitals in Scotland at least.

The reason I feel it's evil ( and I use that word carefully ) , consider you have your partner/child in hospital long term and you visit twice a day for 1- 2 months at say 1 euro PH ........ and perhaps you are on a fixed income ?

City Centre hospitals have particular issues re parking , and people would use any free parking wrongly( people WOULD abuse it for sure ) . So perhaps a crowded city centre isn't the best place for a hospital ?

bk · 28-02-2012 11:54am

Davidth88 wrote: »

The reason I feel it's evil ( and I use that word carefully ) , consider you have your partner/child in hospital long term and you visit twice a day for 1- 2 months at say 1 euro PH ........ and perhaps you are on a fixed income ?

Visiting someone in hospital is different to bringing someone sick to a hospital.

If you are simply visiting the hospital on a regular basis, then surely you should be taking public transport, like everyone else.

lucernarian · 28-02-2012 4:30pm

BrianD wrote: »

Yes and being a Dublin resident. I deal with fact not fiction.

The hospital was being in the right place for all the right reasons. It has good access and while I'm sure other sites might have better access it's really immaterial. Access is not the issues. The Mater hospital site is readily accessible.

Are you honestly saying that the estimates google maps offer are a factually and empirically accurate measurement of journey times in this situation?!

dowlingm · 28-02-2012 4:54pm

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2012/0227/1224312442803.htm

Labour Minister of State and local TD Joe Costello last night called on the Government to proceed with a smaller project on the Mater site.

Building on the site was the only way an urgently needed children’s hospital could be delivered in time for the centenary celebration of the 1916 Rising. “That deadline is fast approaching. The Government’s objective of building the hospital in time for the 2016 anniversary can’t be reached by any other means.”

I'm confused. Is Joe Costello expecting a large number of sick children as a result of the 2016 celebrations?

BrianD · 28-02-2012 7:43pm

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

Are you honestly saying that the estimates google maps offer are a factually and empirically accurate measurement of journey times in this situation?!

They are based on factual information rather than hysteria which seems to be the empirical measure used by it's opponents.

The fact of the matter that as a place to travel to the Mater is no better or worse off than any of the other locations suggested. Ever tried getting to Tallaght? Possibly the worst joke of a suggestion is that between the Red Cow and Newlands on the N7 outbound. Was somebody having a laugh?

L1011 · 28-02-2012 8:27pm

BrianD wrote: »

The fact of the matter that as a place to travel to the Mater is no better or worse off than any of the other locations suggested. Ever tried getting to Tallaght? Possibly the worst joke of a suggestion is that between the Red Cow and Newlands on the N7 outbound. Was somebody having a laugh?

The uninitiated looking at a map see a dual carriageway from the M50 to Tallaght Village and beyond.

Anyone who knows the area will know the multiple sets of lights, sequences that let five cars through, etc...

BrianD · 28-02-2012 10:32pm

MYOB wrote: »

The uninitiated looking at a map see a dual carriageway from the M50 to Tallaght Village and beyond.

Anyone who knows the area will know the multiple sets of lights, sequences that let five cars through, etc...

Not to mention the high volumes of traffic using the routes from Tallaght from J9, J10 and J11.

Hotblack Desiato · 28-02-2012 10:36pm

BrianD wrote: »

Yes and being a Dublin resident. I deal with fact not fiction.

Google's figures come from distance on a map and assumptions about average speeds (in the US, probably) far in excess of what's achieveable in Dublin.
It's pretty obvious that your claims bear no relation to reality. I wouldn't be confident of meeting your quoted time at 4am never mind at any time during the morning or evening.

The hospital was being in the right place for all the right reasons. It has good access and while I'm sure other sites might have better access it's really immaterial. Access is not the issues. The Mater hospital site is readily accessible.

If that's what you really think, then the actual experiences of real people who use the Mater, Temple St, etc. isn't going to change your mind.

Hotblack Desiato · 28-02-2012 10:41pm

BrianD wrote: »

The fact of the matter that as a place to travel to the Mater is no better or worse off than any of the other locations suggested.

For a few people, yes. What matters is what benefits the greatest number of people. There is not a huge outcry outside Dublin, within Dublin, northside, and southside, over the choice of the Mater site without good reason.

Ever tried getting to Tallaght?

Yes, it was fine (Except for the reason that brought me there)
But whether you have a good experience getting to hospital A, or I have one getting to hospital B is not relevant.
What's needed are proper studies into access, into the additional traffic generated by the proposed hospital, etc. Has this been done?

Possibly the worst joke of a suggestion is that between the Red Cow and Newlands on the N7 outbound. Was somebody having a laugh?

Won't be a bad choice at all once Newlands X goes freeflow, it'll be completed well before the hospital could possibly be.

Hotblack Desiato · 28-02-2012 10:42pm

MYOB wrote: »

The uninitiated looking at a map see a dual carriageway from the M50 to Tallaght Village and beyond.

Anyone who knows the area will know the multiple sets of lights, sequences that let five cars through, etc...

While the uninitiated see a dual carriageway inbound from the M50 along the N4 and assume the same.

L1011 · 28-02-2012 11:09pm

ninja900 wrote: »

While the uninitiated see a dual carriageway inbound from the M50 along the N4 and assume the same.

Except the DC along the N4 is mostly grade separated and never has anywhere close to the traffic problems of the N81. I drive in excess of 80,000km a year - I know what roads are like here, rather than making guesses or going off single experiences.

Google's journey times are based on average traffic along those roads, btw - they have accumulated live traffic data; the same as Nokia Maps has if you've got a Nokia phone.

Ernest · 29-02-2012 12:38am

Today's IRISH TIMES has a good analysis by James Nix of the merits of 4 alternative sites for the National Childrens' Hospital ( Mater, Tallaght, Crumlin and St James/Heuston) under 4 separate criteria. In this analysis, a location adjacent to St James Hospital/Heuston Station would score more highly than any other location. This seems to me to make sense. It would be in the City Centre but also near traffic routes and on mainline rail and the Luas - even on the Dart if and when the Dart Underground line is built at some future time.
I cannot help contrasting this rational analysis of the hospital location decision with the gung-ho attitude of the Minister for Health on RTE News at Nine tonight where he seemed determined to chop back the proposed hospital to "fit" the Mater site - not to mention the equally adamant proclamation of Nama Debtor Harry Crosbie that building on the Mater site will go ahead despite its obvious unsuitability - epecially now that there will be no Metro North station to serve the cramped site.

bk · 29-02-2012 3:18am

ninja900 wrote: »

Google's figures come from distance on a map and assumptions about average speeds (in the US, probably) far in excess of what's achieveable in Dublin.

Not true, Google Transit is now available in Ireland, this is where they gather live traffic data via GPS enabled android phones.

Over time they are gathering and storing this data, using it to build up very accurate journey time estimates.

New Children's Hospital at Mater site

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