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Saorview to change Mt Leinster channel

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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,235 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    The Cush wrote: »
    If you remember official comment for the first two years or so said once analogue was switched off in Wales that would be the end of overspill into the SE probably because of the lower ERP of the DTT transmitters. Of course that wasn't to be the case and overspill DTT is probably as good as analogue ever was.

    That coupled with the loss of the Irish analogue channels next Oct would have caused a serious outcry from the general public probably forced them to reassess the situation.
    I'm not sure what sort of official comment existed on this as when the UK planned its switchover, the PSB DTT muxes were to have equivalent coverage to analogue with what, 98% of the UK. Most of the main sites are -7dB down on analogue peak EIRP. The COM muxes are -10dB down so they would have somewhat reduced coverage but certainly overspill coverage would have to be expected. The numbers of people receiving Preseli Freeview in Wexford even before switchover was a sign of things to come.


  • Registered Users Posts: 95 ✭✭firkin


    The Cush wrote: »
    As watty said previously RTÉ recommended back in early 2009 a wideband aerial for reception of both analogue and DTT for Mt Leinster and according to Comreg above DTT coordination with the UK is only being finalised now.

    Just Last July the official tuning info on the RTE NL website was way out of date. I archived it on WebCite. http://www.webcitation.org/60Xb90JhZ (Check that date on the WebCite banner!). RTENL were at that time STILL recommending VHF Band III and UHF A for MT Leinster. I had a hunch that was wrong so I email RTE NL and I was told "The group A aerial is recommended for analogue reception, however for DTT we recommend a Group B, or preferably a UHF wide band aerial. "

    Having had reception issues with Sorview I read up a bit on it and my understanding was that the Wideband antenna could suffer more interference. As I was having reception issues and as the man specifically said a Group B would do I was going to go for that.

    Also I'm sure I read some where (but can't find it now) that the wideband recommendation was for potential future commercial services (along the lines of Boxer TV which don't interest me) .

    The Cush wrote: »
    If there hadn't been pressure from the public, trade and politicians on the matter I've no doubt Chs 39 and 45 would have continued to be used.
    Well what ever the excuse, could they not get their sh*t together and keep the public properly informed.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,452 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    firkin wrote: »
    Just Last July the official tuning info on the RTE NL website was way out of date. I archived it on WebCite. http://www.webcitation.org/60Xb90JhZ (Check that date on the WebCite banner!). RTENL were at that time STILL recommending VHF Band III and UHF A for MT Leinster. I had a hunch that was wrong so I email RTE NL and I was told "The group A aerial is recommended for analogue reception, however for DTT we recommend a Group B, or preferably a UHF wide band aerial. "

    The analogue tuning information is still valid, there are households that still require analogue tuning information with mixed analogue/Saorview equipment until ASO. UHF wideband aerial has been recommended by RTÉNL for mixed analogue/Saorview since early 2009. I posted the information here at the time.
    firkin wrote: »
    Also I'm sure I read some where (but can't find it now) that the wideband recommendation was for potential future commercial services (along the lines of Boxer TV which don't interest me).

    Wideband UHF aerial was recommended for mixed analogue/Saorview reception. The commercial muxes were in the same band/aerial group as the RTÉ mux.

    The original 2008 4 mux plan was RTÉ - Ch 45, Boxer - Chs 39, 42, 49.
    firkin wrote: »
    could they not get their sh*t together and keep the public properly informed.
    We've been saying the same here for years.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,757 ✭✭✭lawhec


    Interesting that Holywell Hill is now planned to have two post-DSO multiplexes on E30 and E33, If they don't intend to broadcast on E23, E26 and E29 (and that other frequencies are available to use from HH, I know they have an E35 allocation), I wonder if this may allow the COM multiplexes post-DSO from Brougher Mountain to move to these three frequencies, instead of having to share the PSB frequencies with Divis at significantly lower power (2kW) compared to the PSB multiplexes (20kW)? Co-channel will still be a problem as E23, E26 and E29 are planned for COM use at Divis but at half the power (50kW) of the PSB multiplexes (100kW), which would in theory allow a little bit more power available to Brougher's COM transmissions e.g. from 2kW to 4-5kW, reducing the power discrepancies across the six multiplexes?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,021 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    The Cush wrote: »
    According to Comreg, in recent documents, planning for the 4 commercial multiplexes is complete and they were in discussions regarding spectrum for a possible 7th and 8th mux.

    Why

    Its never going to happen ?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 15,452 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    lawhec wrote: »
    Interesting that Holywell Hill is now planned to have two post-DSO multiplexes on E30 and E33, If they don't intend to broadcast on E23, E26 and E29 (and that other frequencies are available to use from HH, I know they have an E35 allocation), I wonder if this may allow the COM multiplexes post-DSO from Brougher Mountain to move to these three frequencies, instead of having to share the PSB frequencies with Divis at significantly lower power (2kW) compared to the PSB multiplexes (20kW)?

    Holywell Hill's eight DTT allocations at RRC06 were 23, 25, 26, 29, 30, 32, 33, 35.

    From what we understand from Comreg documents the 4 commercial multiplexes are already finalised with planning underway for possible Mux 7 and 8. The list hasn't been published.

    Will the 6 non PSB muxes come from the RRC06 allocation or elsewhere?
    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    Why

    Its never going to happen ?

    Maybe not but if things change in future it's better to be looking at them than looking for them. Staking our claim to valuable spectrum.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭STB


    The Cush wrote: »
    Now that all concerned appear to have agreed the final configuration for the Irish transmitters maybe they'll now publish the actual ERPs for the 51 sites at ASO.

    181528.JPG
    181529.JPG
    181530.JPG


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭STB


    The Cush wrote: »
    Invalid Attachments.

    Cén Fath ?

    Fixed. Ta.


  • Registered Users Posts: 95 ✭✭firkin


    The Cush wrote: »
    The analogue tuning information is still valid...

    This is my point entirely. You've named the link "analogue tuning information" because you know what it is about. But that is far from clear to the uninitiated.

    For eaxmple my experience last July was, I navigated to the RTE NL "Brodcast Information" page looking for tuning info and I saw "Television Frequency" link and I download that PDF you linked to and it gives VHF BIII and UHF A and nowhere in that document does it say analogue only or digital is different or in the future changes will be made or Saorview has different frequencies.

    I can't believe to this day they still have that misleading and seriously deficient document on the web site.

    There's no excuse for it. It would take 5 mins to annotate that PDF and upload it to their web site.

    Its either incompetence or laziness or both. [Sorry for the rant:rolleyes:]

    The Cush wrote: »
    We've been saying the same here for years.

    From the tit-for-tat replies you were giving me I thought you were on their side. Glad to hear we're on the same page :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭STB


    Firkin,

    RTE NL have always advised a Wideband aerial for Mt Leinster. It has come up before. My post here with the picture is from the Saorview Aerial guide for consumers.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=70069197&postcount=14


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  • Registered Users Posts: 95 ✭✭firkin


    STB wrote: »
    Firkin,

    RTE NL have always advised a Wideband aerial for Mt Leinster. It has come up before. My post here with the picture is from the Saorview Aerial guide for consumers.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=70069197&postcount=14

    Actually having read that thread you posted thats where I got my info from. You yourself posted that Group B was for DTT.
    STB wrote: »
    RTE's recommendation on what to use is per that sheet which has being doing the rounds for over a year. It clearly recommends A for Analogue only and B for DTT only, Wideband for both combined.


    That link you posted clearly recommends Group B for DTT.


    The point I'm making (and I think your post has proved) is RTE NL's communication is dire and needs fixing. I don't think you can argue with that?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    They are dodging satellite shadow issues as well ( mind you so is Rabbitte).

    Committee should haul them in and get HD maps.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,452 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    STB wrote: »
    181528.JPG
    181529.JPG
    181530.JPG

    I posted that information from the Comreg source document here a few weeks ago.

    The thing is that information is the Comreg licensed max coordinted ERPs for each of the sites but may not be the actual ERP used for the sites by RTÉNL. If you compare the analogue information from the document with the actual RTÉNL information there can be a difference.

    We don't know the actual ERPs until RTÉNL publish the information similar to the analogue frequency list.


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    If the government wants better coverage maybe they should contribute. So far they haven't yet claim the "Digital dividend" is worth €500M. (It's not though).


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭STB


    firkin wrote: »
    Actually having read that thread you posted thats where I got my info from. You yourself posted that Group B was for DTT.


    That link you posted clearly recommends Group B for DTT.


    The point I'm making (and I think your post has proved) is RTE NL's communication is dire and needs fixing. I don't think you can argue with that?

    I recommended a Wideband actually.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=70067279&postcount=8

    I dont disagree that it is a bit of a mess though.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,452 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    firkin wrote: »
    I can't believe to this day they still have that misleading and seriously deficient document on the web site.

    There's no excuse for it. It would take 5 mins to annotate that PDF and upload it to their web site.

    Its either incompetence or laziness or both.

    In my opinion it may be neither, more likely international coordination with the UK (Ofcom) hadn't been completed but with the information on the retunes now released the DTT plan may now be finalised. I would expect the DTT frequency guide to be published in due course if this is the case.
    firkin wrote: »
    From the tit-for-tat replies you were giving me I thought you were on their side. Glad to hear we're on the same page

    I'm not on anyone's side but my own and post based on information in the public domain.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭STB


    The Cush wrote: »
    I posted that information from the Comreg source document here a few weeks ago.

    The thing is that information is the Comreg licensed max coordinted ERPs for each of the sites but may not be the actual ERP used for the sites by RTÉNL. If you compare the analogue information from the document with the actual RTÉNL information there can be a difference.

    We don't know the actual ERPs until RTÉNL publish the information similar to the analogue frequency list.

    Wasnt aware that it had been posted it previously.

    But yeah they are the maximum licensed ERPs. RTE will be using the max in those cases, but not in all cases right now as they have analogue Txs operating in tandom from a number of towers. Come ASO there will be significant power increases IMO.


  • Registered Users Posts: 95 ✭✭firkin


    STB wrote: »

    Ahh, you may have recommended wideband but RTE NL didn't.
    STB wrote: »
    I dont disagree that it is a bit of a mess though.

    And that's my point exactly :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,452 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    STB wrote: »
    But yeah they are the maximum licensed ERPs. RTE will be using the max in those cases, but not in all cases right now as they have analogue Txs operating in tandom from a number of towers. Come ASO there will be significant power increases IMO.

    According to RTÉNL at a pre launch Saorview trade event in Apr(?) almost all DTT sites are at full power except those with NI overspill until ASO. But we don't know what ERP they're at until they publish the information.


  • Registered Users Posts: 95 ✭✭firkin


    The Cush wrote: »
    In my opinion it may be neither, more likely international coordination with the UK (Ofcom) hadn't been completed but with the information on the retunes now released the DTT plan may now be finalised. I would expect the DTT frequency guide to be published in due course if this is the case.

    It's no excuse for not amending that "television frequencies" PDF with a simple health warning that the freqencies are for Analogue TV and DTT is different but due to international coordination issues with the UK we cant post the DTT frequencies until some time in the future [or whatever the reason]

    The Cush wrote: »
    I'm not on anyone's side but my own
    Here, here ;)


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  • Registered Users Posts: 15,452 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    firkin wrote: »
    Ahh, you may have recommended wideband but RTE NL didn't.

    RTÉNL recommended a wideband aerial in the Receiving DTT brochure in Apr 2009 for reception of both analogue and DTT from Mt Leinster.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,519 ✭✭✭Gerry Wicklow


    @ firkin
    i think by now the general consensus is that there has been nothing but inaccurate, misleading and inadequate information from RTÉ / RTÉnl and their various spokespeople/ experts (Gay Byrne, Pat Kenny etc). Considering the way they dug their heels in with the mess in Mt Leinster, it's about all we can expect from them:(


  • Registered Users Posts: 95 ✭✭firkin


    The Cush wrote: »
    RTÉNL recommended a wideband aerial in the Receiving DTT brochure in Apr 2009 for reception of both analogue and DTT from Mt Leinster.

    I was specifically replying to:
    STB wrote: »
    Firkin,

    RTE NL have always advised a Wideband aerial for Mt Leinster. It has come up before. My post here with the picture is from the Saorview Aerial guide for consumers.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=70069197&postcount=14

    That table doesn't recomend wideband for DTT. It recommends Group B for DTT or wideband for Analogue and DTT combined.

    I have no idea where you came across that "Receiving DTT brochure in Apr 2009". I certainly never saw it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 95 ✭✭firkin


    @ firkin
    i think by now the general consensus is that there has been nothing but inaccurate, misleading and inadequate information from RTÉ / RTÉnl and their various spokespeople/ experts (Gay Byrne, Pat Kenny etc). Considering the way they dug their heels in with the mess in Mt Leinster, it's about all we can expect from them:(

    Consensus !! Not by the way The Cush keeps popping off the replies:D


  • Registered Users Posts: 556 ✭✭✭mrdtv2010


    Sanity prevails at last in the Mount Leinster/Preseli standoff. Shame it hadn't been thought through from the start: it was obvious that the DTT coverage would match the analogue coverage given the efficiencies of COFDM systems at 7dB below peak analogue ERPs.
    On an incidental note the change of the Mount Leinster frequencies will remove any CCI between Mount Leinster and Kilkeel post DSO which is 39, 42 and 45. I see from DUK's site its being reengineered today.


  • Registered Users Posts: 354 ✭✭egal


    I refer to post #38.

    I notice a big difference in the powers of PSB 01 and PSB 02 from Clermont. Why is that?


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,452 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    egal wrote: »
    I notice a big difference in the powers of PSB 01 and PSB 02 from Clermont. Why is that?

    Asked here previously also, typo?


  • Registered Users Posts: 38 Ambp


    What's labeled as RTÉ Pulse is currently picking up RTÉ Radio 1, retuned and still having the same problem :confused:


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    The Cush wrote: »
    I posted that information from the Comreg source document here a few weeks ago.
    There are 60 transmitters there Cush ( counting 2 x Bantry as 1) , when did they start rolling out more of them...by the way the new ones seem to be PSB1 only, eg Timoleague and Greenore. ???


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  • Registered Users Posts: 15,452 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    There are 60 transmitters there Cush ( counting 2 x Bantry as 1) , when did they start rolling out more of them...by the way the new ones seem to be PSB1 only, eg Timoleague and Greenore. ???

    Old DTT plan.

    A revised DTT plan was developed early to mid 2010 and approved by the Dept in July 2010 (incl. Saorsat) following the failure of the commercial DTT process in May 2010.


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