FAQ: Analogue, DTT, Aerials

Ulsterman 1690 · 04-06-2005 1:23pm #1

Mainly written for DX enthusiasts but some good recommendations on aerials

Coaxial cables The Good The Bad and the UGLY :mad:

For cheapskates

Lots more

lawhec · 12-09-2005 1:09pm

I thought that with some questions being asked on a regular basis that an FAQ might be useful. It also includes a few questions for nOObs to DTT

I'll try to keep this written in a simple fashion, with updates over time.

[Mod Edit] This is now updated by Northern Correspondent here . [/mod Edit]

watty · 22-01-2006 1:18am

http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/cable/coaxperf.html

RG58 is very basic 50 Ohm coax. Useful for < 500W HF or VHF
RG59 is similar, but 75 Ohm

RG6 is American spec of a cable not unlike CT100. A double screen 75 OHm cable.

Some Equivalents

Type 	Center Conductor 	Cond. Type 	VOP&#185; 	O.D. 	Replacement
RG-174/U 	7x (.0063") 	Stranded 	65% 	.100" 	LMR-100A
RG-316/U 	7x (.0067") 	Stranded 	68% 	.110" 	LMR-100A
RG-58/U 	20 AWG 	Solid 	66% 	.195" 	LMR-195
RG-58A/U 	19x (.0071") 	Stranded 	65% 	.195" 	LMR-195
RG-58C/U 	19x (.0071") 	Stranded 	65% 	.195" 	LMR-195
RG-59CATV 	22 AWG 	Solid 	78% 	.242" 	
RG-6 CATV 	.040" 	Solid 	82% 	.300" 	
RG-8X 		Stranded 	78% 	.242" 	LMR-240
RG-213 	13(7x.0296) 	Stranded 	65% 	.405" 	LMR-400
RG-214/U 	13(7x.0296) 	Stranded 	66% 	.405" 	LMR-400

RG216 is kind of next up from RG-213, which is a lot more common.

LMR 400 is also a widely used better equivalent of RG213.

RG213 is 50 Ohm very heavy cable.

But last repeater I installed used even heavier cable (forget part) only a few dB loss over the 120ft run from 90ft up mast to the equipment at 434MHZ. I used hacksaw, pipe cutters and file to cut, trim and fit compression fitting N-Plugs (only type of connector available). Might have been LMR600

Use Google.

See
http://www.andrew.com/products/trans_line/heliax/default.aspx

Especially see http://www.ocarc.ca/coax.htm

watty · 03-07-2008 12:11pm

Depends on where you live. There are only poor and terrible internal antennas.

All in Ones are terrible.

At least an aerial in attic, best is outdoor. Very few places have enough signal for decent indoor.

Example of Maghera, Mullaghanish, Kippure, Mt Leinster, Truskmore VHF RTE1 & RTE 2 only Internal aerial
http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=8967&criteria=TV%20aerial&doy=3m7

Example of TV3/TG4 UHF aerial for all areas and also RTE1 & RTE2 for all areas not above (Spur Hill, WoodCock Hill, Three Rock, Longford/Clermont Cairn, Louth Cairn Hill, Holywell/Holyhill? Derry/Donegal and all relays/repeaters/deflectors/transposers)
http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=33215&criteria=TV%20aerial&doy=3m7

If these don't work (can be combined with a Y splitter) in room, add coax to put them at Windowsill, top of shelf, attic etc.

If that is not enough an outdoor aerial in Attic.

Amplifiers are only to be fitted about 4ft /1.2m from an Aerial to make up for cable loss. TVs are sensitive enough and too much gain near TV picks up interference and boosts noise. Avoid amplied internal aerials.

These aerials are available locally in Ireland as little as 6 Euro each. If they are not good enough you need a larger aerial in attic or preferably outside.

This can go in attic or outdoors:
http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?TabID=1&ModuleNo=36354&doy=3m7

For fringe reception four of these using 2 x Y + 1 xY combiners/splitters often works better than one large much more expensive aerial.

The bow tie / fish fryer aerial is wideband for the whole UHF band (no use for VHF) and will work in attic or outdoors in reasonable signal areas
Front view

 ><
 ><
 ><
 ><
(horizontal)

 v v v v
 ^ ^ ^ ^
rotated on side for Vertical polarised.

It has a large mesh reflector behind the four sets of aerial rods.

Never use a Band II/VHF horizontal / halo aerial in Ireland.

Note there is NO SUCH THING as a Digital Aerial. Signals for Digital TV use the same Aerials, dishes or cable and actually are Analogue RF.

An RTE BandIII log Periodic aerial is fine for DAB.

dubdec99 · 17-09-2009 3:55pm

I'm looking for an indoor aerial to pick up the basic irish terrestrial stations RTe, TV3 etc - i tried an all-in-one (before seeing this thread) and it's worse than useless...

would this do the trick:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/digiTop-Amplified-Performance-Indoor-Aerial/dp/B001ACV7E0/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1253197791&sr=8-1

Fuzzy Clam · 18-09-2009 12:03am

dubdec99 wrote: »

I'm looking for an indoor aerial to pick up the basic irish terrestrial stations RTe, TV3 etc - i tried an all-in-one (before seeing this thread) and it's worse than useless...

would this do the trick:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/digiTop-Amplified-Performance-Indoor-Aerial/dp/B001ACV7E0/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1253197791&sr=8-1

Can't tell you if it will work but you'll save 5 pence if you buy it:)

coylemj · 30-09-2009 1:26pm

What transmitter are you looking to receive from? If it's a UHF only signal then the indoor UHF aerial on Watty's post above (below the rabbit's ears) will do the trick if you're signal is reasonably strong.

dubdec99 wrote: »

I'm looking for an indoor aerial to pick up the basic irish terrestrial stations RTe, TV3 etc - i tried an all-in-one (before seeing this thread) and it's worse than useless...

would this do the trick:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/digiTop-Amplified-Performance-Indoor-Aerial/dp/B001ACV7E0/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1253197791&sr=8-1

rasper · 07-10-2009 10:47am

http://www.amazon.co.uk/DMX10WB-element-wibeband-suitable-freeview/dp/B000NOOPNG/ref=sr_1_21?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1254908506&sr=1-21

http://www.amazon.co.uk/SLx-27884G-Element-Digital-Aerial/dp/B001UJUHAI/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1254907530&sr=8-6

http://www.amazon.co.uk/DEDICATED-DIGITAL-FREEVIEW-OUTDOOR-AERIAL/dp/B000LEDWC8/ref=sr_1_27?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1254908695&sr=1-27

I'm sure its been hammered out here before but the search facility is down so unable to find the threads, Im trying to buy a UHF aerial but kinda confused with the choices , will any of the 3 above I've pulled do for the future signals , in Waterford so off Mount Leinster if it matters, if they'll all do is there anyone with an advantage over the other, or if they won't what do I look for
Thanks

STB · 12-10-2009 12:31pm

Handy links: lifted off TVtrade.ie

Areas of good reception (this would do for most areas in Dublin)

10 element UHF Contract Aerial (€10 excl VAT)

http://tvtrade.ie/show/28,Aerials-UHF-Contract-aerial--wide-band-Black

How to install Guide: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcZ5cxYLeRM

Areas requiring - High Gain Aerial

Grid UHF Antenna - (€27.50 excl vat)

http://tvtrade.ie/show/27,Grid-UHF-Aerial

How to install: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVI2DpZA-xg

coylemj · 13-10-2009 11:19am

Good to see that there's someone in Ireland selling group aerials cause even with DTT a lot of people in Ireland would be better off with a group aerial to optimize gain. Of the main transmitters, only three (Three Rock, Mt. Leinster & Spur Hill) are calling for wideband to cover both analog and DTT, all of the rest are recommended to get a group aerial for best reception.

upsilon · 15-10-2009 4:58pm

Hi
I need to update my Analogue antenna since it's about to fell off the roof because of rust. We live in Arklow. Can anyone point me to a map showing the local relay transmitters.
Also My neigbour got 2 new antennas Plus a Free to air dish. She could not tell me why she got 2 aerials. (none of the antennas point to the UK)
Could it be because local transmiter don't carry TV3 which has to be collected from Kippure?

I have to buy RG6 Satellite cable Can I use that as well for aerial?

many thanks

lucernarian · 16-10-2009 11:17am

Closest I can think of is http://www.rtenl.ie/downloads/television-frequencies.pdf

And that doesn't give the actual exact locations. It's just a list. Give a quick call to a local aerial installer to find out where a certain relay is.

Also, look at page 2 of this document: http://www.bci.ie/DTT/easy_tv/append2_tech.pdf

It's 42MB big but I've no time to just get the required page (page 2). It gives coordinates for DTT-planned transmitters.[IMG]file:///C:/Users/MATTHE%7E1/AppData/Local/Temp/moz-screenshot-2.png[/IMG][IMG]file:///C:/Users/MATTHE%7E1/AppData/Local/Temp/moz-screenshot.png[/IMG][IMG]file:///C:/Users/MATTHE%7E1/AppData/Local/Temp/moz-screenshot-1.png[/IMG]

coylemj · 16-10-2009 8:48pm

upsilon wrote: »

Hi
I need to update my Analogue antenna since it's about to fell off the roof because of rust. We live in Arklow. Can anyone point me to a map showing the local relay transmitters.
Also My neigbour got 2 new antennas Plus a Free to air dish. She could not tell me why she got 2 aerials. (none of the antennas point to the UK)
Could it be because local transmiter don't carry TV3 which has to be collected from Kippure?

I have to buy RG6 Satellite cable Can I use that as well for aerial?

many thanks

Your neighbour might have two aerials because the local main transmitter is broadcasting RTE1 and RTE2 on VHF and TV3 and TG4 on UHF. Are the two aerials pointing in the same direction i.e. does it look as though they're receiving from the same transmitter? If they are then the reason is UHF and VHF and they're probably receiving the signals from Kippure. If they're pointing in different directions then it's because there is a local relay station broadcasting RTE1/RTE2/TG4 (aerial #1) and they need a different aerial (#2) to pickup TV3 from a main transmitter, presumably the signal from the main transmitter is weak, otherwise they'd be picking up all four channels from the main transmitter. Take a look at the list of RTE relay stations in the TV frequencies PDF file, there isn't one called 'Arklow' but there are a few in Co. Wicklow, see if there's one near you.

upsilon · 17-10-2009 10:49am

Many thanks

17-10-2009 11:53am

upsilon wrote: »

Hi
I need to update my Analogue antenna since it's about to fell off the roof because of rust. We live in Arklow. Can anyone point me to a map showing the local relay transmitters.
Also My neigbour got 2 new antennas Plus a Free to air dish. She could not tell me why she got 2 aerials. (none of the antennas point to the UK)
Could it be because local transmiter don't carry TV3 which has to be collected from Kippure?

I have to buy RG6 Satellite cable Can I use that as well for aerial?

many thanks

Just to add.
If you are updating your aerial system,then freeview from the presely transmitter in wales is available in arklow.
It should also be available from the arfon welsh transmitter next week when that converts.
Where are you roughly speaking in the town?
If you receive presely,you'll have all these channels for free without a dish and just an aerial and amp

macronot · 11-11-2009 5:50pm

Build on of these the other day http://www.tvantennaplans.com/

Works fine connected to the booster box in the attic.

Went to try and connect it directly to the DTT box and the box started smoking. Does anyone know what happened there?

It has a balun 300ohm to 75ohms as specified in the instructions no wires where in contact.

Have it connect in the attic now and getting a very good 92% signal.

fat-tony · 11-11-2009 6:03pm

macronot wrote: »

Build on of these the other day http://www.tvantennaplans.com/

Works fine connected to the booster box in the attic.

Went to try and connect it directly to the DTT box and the box started smoking. Does anyone know what happened there?

It has a balun 300ohm to 75ohms as specified in the instructions no wires where in contact.

Have it connect in the attic now and getting a very good 92% signal.

Some DTT boxes have a menu option which allows the aerial socket to power a masthead amplifier by placing a voltage on the downlead. If you didn't have the masthead amplifier (booster) in the circuit, then it might see a direct aerial connection as a short. Usually there is a short-circuit protection feature which disables the power, but maybe it was not working correctly. Make sure you turn off the aerial/antenna power in the menu.
As a matter of interest, where did you purchase the balun? I was looking for one myself.

macronot · 11-11-2009 6:06pm

Thanks for the info, I will check that.

I get the balun from an old indoor aerial.
I also picked one up today in Maplins (€3.29) as I'm building another one for my Dad.

GoGoBoss · 14-11-2009 10:49pm

Hi Upsilon,
You mention that your neighbour has recently had 2 aerial fitted, I would be surprised if there trying to pick up 2 different transmitters. Have a look to see if one of the aerials is polarised vertical (VHF) and horizontal (UHF) you will find images on google of what these aerials look like, if thats the case they are most likely pointed to mount leinster.
With respect to STB's post about aerial choice, I am not sure if you are plugging tvtrade.ie However the aerials suggested especially the UHF contract aerial is of very poor quality and I would certainly not recomend this to anyone and to suggest that a UHF yagi aerial will generally out perform a grid aerial is simply not true. Both aerials are good for what they were designed for and grid aerials are not designed for poor signal areas where high gain is required. A good quality high gain benchmarked yagi aerial will outperform a grid aerial pound for pound in poor signal areas.

upsilon · 17-11-2009 6:43pm

Your right they point to mount Leinster one VHF for RTE one UHF from tv3 and TG4 (how convenient...)
I was hoping to catch one of the small transmiter scattered around wicklow since it is all UHF. no luck so far.
the main problem is really to be in the complete dark about DTT Launch, if only we could be sure it would be early next year. I would wait until then and I would not need VHF. but then it could also be 2012 or 15....

GoGoBoss · 17-11-2009 10:47pm

glad to hear you worked it out. If your neighbours are receiving a good signal from mount leinster then you should be able to pick up the DTT with a single UHF aerial.

STB · 18-11-2009 1:42am

GoGoBoss wrote: »

With respect to STB's post about aerial choice, I am not sure if you are plugging tvtrade.ie However the aerials suggested especially the UHF contract aerial is of very poor quality and I would certainly not recomend this to anyone and to suggest that a UHF yagi aerial will generally out perform a grid aerial is simply not true. Both aerials are good for what they were designed for and grid aerials are not designed for poor signal areas where high gain is required. A good quality high gain benchmarked yagi aerial will outperform a grid aerial pound for pound in poor signal areas.

No I dont work for Tv trade nor do I have any affiliation to any TV equipment installer. You could buy it in from the UK, thats why I suggested an Irish Company. An Irish Company at wholesale prices (installing them is another thing for most punters so dont worry

). If you are suggesting that Blakes aerials are of bad quality then fine. I'm sure most people can just walk in to Maplin and pay three times the price for a similar quality product.

I never suggested (nor did I mean to) that Group aerials are outperformed by wideband aerials. I am in total agreement with you. - It actually gives the pro's and cons on each following the links.

What I was sugessting was that get this for Dublin, get this for the rest of the country (rather than having people running out and buying the wrong contract aerials for the wrong frequencies around the country). It should have been labelled Aeras outside Dublin. Of course the third option is the individual grouped aerials.

Perhaps i should have just posted a picture. Heres the DB gain lost - Group vs wideband.

fig%201

upsilon · 18-11-2009 10:35am

GoGoBoss wrote: »

glad to hear you worked it out. If your neighbours are receiving a good signal from mount leinster then you should be able to pick up the DTT with a single UHF aerial.

Sorry, are you saying that DTT trail is ON on Mont leinster?? I will trial tonight.
Tks

GoGoBoss · 18-11-2009 7:59pm

STB wrote: »

No I dont work for Tv trade nor do I have any affiliation to any TV equipment installer. You could buy it in from the UK, thats why I suggested an Irish Company. An Irish Company at wholesale prices (installing them is another thing for most punters so dont worry ). If you are suggesting that Blakes aerials are of bad quality then fine. I'm sure most people can just walk in to Maplin and pay three times the price for a similar quality product.

I never suggested (nor did I mean to) that Group aerials are outperformed by wideband aerials. I am in total agreement with you. - It actually gives the pro's and cons on each following the links.

What I was sugessting was that get this for Dublin, get this for the rest of the country (rather than having people running out and buying the wrong contract aerials for the wrong frequencies around the country). It should have been labelled Aeras outside Dublin. Of course the third option is the individual grouped aerials.

Perhaps i should have just posted a picture. Heres the DB gain lost - Group vs wideband.

Hi STB,
What I was saying is that the aerials you mentioned previously are not benchmarked and the yagi aerial is of very poor quality. I'm not sure if the chart you provided here is meant to relate to the yagi aerials in question. See this link from the blake website http://www.blake-uk.com/page/aerial_range/aerial_cr Note that these aerials are not benchmarked so the figures they provide cannot be verified even if they could they are very poor figures compared with similar spec benchmarked aerials. Also they don't provide critical specifications such as Front to back ratios, beamwidth etc. and they don't match the chart you provided. The grid aerial mentioned is also not benchmarked and at the price of €27.50 excl VAT . If one required an aerial for weaker signal areas you could get a good benchmarked yagi for this price with a much better gain. I understand you are trying to help save others money by recommending an Irish seller and to be fair his prices are reasonable, but this doesn't mean they would be suitable and achieve the desired result. Alot of people could waste their money buying these products or worse could assume that they would not be able to get a good signal in their area because they tried one of these arials and received a poor signal with them. When the reality is that they may have the wrong aerial for their area.

upsilon · 19-11-2009 11:48am

Many thanks to all of you, I got irish DDT from mount leinster, and the rest from Astra28E. all work perfect now.
goodbye sky
Cheers

GoGoBoss · 19-11-2009 10:25pm

upsilon wrote: »

Many thanks to all of you, I got irish DDT from mount leinster, and the rest from Astra28E. all work perfect now.
goodbye sky
Cheers

Glad to hear it all worked out......and no bills:)

The Cush · 19-11-2009 11:39pm

upsilon wrote: »

Many thanks to all of you, I got irish DDT from mount leinster

DDT = dichlorodiphenyltrichloroethane

I'd be very careful with that if I were you, probably buried there when it was banned in 1981, DTT a much safer option.

Even our legislators get confused sometimes

1999
[517]Mr. Browne (Carlow-Kilkenny): ...
The Bill will open the floodgates to a certain extent. We will be able to access many new stations if DTT comes into play. When I saw the letters “DTT” first, it reminded me of my youth when DDT managed to clear the country of all forms of parasites, fleas and crickets, which used keep everyone awake. DDT was magical. I hope that DTT does for television what DDT did for all the vermin that survived after the war.

1998
Miss de Valera: ...
Nobody knows what will be the outcome of DDT. Given all of the considerations it is the best approach at this time and that is the reason we intend to take on the DDT model rather than the satellites and other approaches mentioned by the Deputy.

baubl · 27-12-2009 10:19pm

coylemj wrote: »

Your neighbour might have two aerials because the local main transmitter is broadcasting RTE1 and RTE2 on VHF and TV3 and TG4 on UHF. Are the two aerials pointing in the same direction i.e. does it look as though they're receiving from the same transmitter? If they are then the reason is UHF and VHF and they're probably receiving the signals from Kippure. If they're pointing in different directions then it's because there is a local relay station broadcasting RTE1/RTE2/TG4 (aerial #1) and they need a different aerial (#2) to pickup TV3 from a main transmitter, presumably the signal from the main transmitter is weak, otherwise they'd be picking up all four channels from the main transmitter. Take a look at the list of RTE relay stations in the TV frequencies PDF file, there isn't one called 'Arklow' but there are a few in Co. Wicklow, see if there's one near you.

which analogue ariel would be best suited to attic space to pick up tv3 in kerry

ranger4 · 08-03-2010 3:06pm

Recently installed a M vision 300 reciever to view the fta+ 3 Hd channels along with RTE1,Net 2, Tv3, and tnag, But cant seem to tune TV3? Transmmiter is cairn hill in longford and i am using a colourking in the attic with no mast amp or psu connected, The 3 irish channels pic quality and signal are over 75-80% but cant seem to tune Tv3? anyone able to help, thanks.

Bob_Harris · 08-03-2010 4:01pm

ranger4 wrote: »

Recently installed a M vision 300 reciever to view the fta+ 3 Hd channels along with RTE1,Net 2, Tv3, and tnag, But cant seem to tune TV3? Transmmiter is cairn hill in longford and i am using a colourking in the attic with no mast amp or psu connected, The 3 irish channels pic quality and signal are over 75-80% but cant seem to tune Tv3? anyone able to help, thanks.

TV3 is being broadcast as a test card at the moment.

With DTT, RTE 1/2, TV3 and TG4 are on the same frequency/channel, so if you get one you get all.

upsilon · 08-03-2010 5:50pm

Here on the mount leinsther transmitter, TV3 is not broadcast only the colour test disk. Also in most case TV3 Analogue is broadcast in UHF so you should still get it in analogue with a uhf aerial used for irish dtt.

FAQ: Analogue, DTT, Aerials

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