Season 2 Episode 5 - Have NOT Read the Books

Davyhal · 01-05-2012 4:29pm

From what I gathered, it was Theon that said to attack Torrhens Square after (or maybe instead of) raiding the fishing villages, but he said it after being pointed in that way of thinking by his first mate. Maybe the first mate knows more than he is letting on. Wouldn't be surprised if maybe Theon's sister or someone attacked Winterfell once all the troops are off protecting Torrhens Square, with her having told the first mate to plant the idea in Theon's head.... Theon wants to improve his situation in the family by impressing his father, but he may have been reluctant if he was informed of an all-out attack on Winterfell. He doesn't want to admit it, but he still has some loyalty to the Starks. Only question is, does he care more about impressing Balon, or about the Starks status as rulers of Winterfell?

Kirby · 01-05-2012 4:30pm

I love the show but everything North of the wall is just so slow and dreary. The expense in location shooting all those men in the snow is just not worth the scenes at all. That money could be better spent on something else.

The sooner Jon Snow either dies (he wont) or actually starts fighting some white walkers, the better.

[Deleted User] · 01-05-2012 4:38pm

Kirby wrote: »

I love the show but everything North of the wall is just so slow and dreary. The expense in location shooting all those men in the snow is just not worth the scenes at all. That money could be better spent on something else.

The sooner Jon Snow either dies (he wont) or actually starts fighting some white walkers, the better.

I actually quite like the stuff north of the way. Gives you that extra thing to be thinking about as we literally know **** all about what's going on with the white walkers. Also I think the shots yesterday were great.

tvnutz · 01-05-2012 5:26pm

Sure the white walkers are not the only problem North of the Wall,the Wildlings and their huge army who want to march south and take the throne might be a bit of a problem as well!

pixelburp · 01-05-2012 7:13pm

Lothaar v2 wrote: »

As Sleepy says, you're confusing Balon and Theon. The post I was responding to referenced Balon's idiocy for attacking the Starks, giving the Lannisters some reprieve. I was saying that Theon's attack on Torrhens Square could work out in Balon's favour, as most/all the remaining soldiers have left Winterfell to repel the attack, leaving Winterfell perilously undefended. Balon can swoop in, behind the over-stretched Stark lines, and take their home stronghold.

Yes, reading it again I was getting my Greyjoys mixed up. Papa Greyjoy is definitely canny allright for attacking the North, though the prodigal son is still a moron of the highest order

Potential-Monke · 01-05-2012 9:17pm

mikemac1 wrote: »

Wildfire to burn an entire fleet?
I know this show doesn't do big battle scenes but that sounds incredible

The producers got a 15% budget increase for a single episode in this season, so they might be doing a big battle...

TheFullDuck · 01-05-2012 11:31pm

Didn't know where to put this so I'll drop it here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ur8dwmqY3g

calex71 · 01-05-2012 11:59pm

TheFullDuck wrote: »

Didn't know where to put this so I'll drop it here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ur8dwmqY3g

Just saw that this evening

mufcboy1999 · 02-05-2012 12:46am

Really really not enjoying this series so far , such a letdown.

touts · 02-05-2012 8:08am

I think this was a good episode. It didn't have the over the top shock elements or the "this scene would be much better if you get your tits out there love" pointless elements of recent episodes. It was all about character development.

I really liked Tywin in this one. I thought his council meeting added to last week's ending of the torture shows where Tyrion gets his character traits.

I thought both Bran and Arya are really starting to grow up. Bran holding court and making military decisions and Arya in effect ordering an execution. These two characters should be templates on how children's characters can be included in a good story without destroying the whole concept (e.g. Terra Nova).

I think the Daenerys storyline has finally moved on. Lets face it dragons or not she's not going to get into the game for the iron throne wandering around the desert. That said I'm not sure where the whole love interest with Sir Jorah is going. If she rejects the billionaire (for want of a better word) offering to put her at the head of an army to return to wandering around with Jorah and a rag tag bunch of barbarians then she deserves to be written out of the story. Lets get the barbarian horde from Series 1 onto some boats and into the war in the seven kingdoms.

We didn't see much with the night's watch north of the wall but ithink that was the idea as at last we have some detail on the hidden danger they are facing. A huge army of ALL the "wildings" trained as a military force. I'm really looking forward to seeing this King Mace.

I'm not sure what to make of Theon. He seems a right gob****e. I can't see him as a leader of men even a bunch of pirates. Perhaps now that he has a strong right hand man (seems to be a trait of this show as Tyrion and Dany also have them) he will have someone to guide him but at the moment the show would be stronger if his crew just threw him overboard and let his father & sister take over that storyline.

But overall I think this was quite a good episode.

Syferus · 02-05-2012 1:22pm

What? It's Theon's betrayal that makes that storyline click, if not for him his sister and father might as well be faceless brigands.

touts · 02-05-2012 1:30pm

Syferus wrote: »

What? It's Theon's betrayal that makes that storyline click, if not for him his sister and father might as well be faceless brigands.

Perhaps but he is just coming across as an eegit being lead by whoever happens to be speaking to him at that time. First it was Ned. Then Robb. Then his Father. Now this new sidekick. Perhaps it is the actor. I just dont buy the character at all.

Zillah · 02-05-2012 1:51pm

Theon is a gobshte. That's his character.

touts · 02-05-2012 1:54pm

Zillah wrote: »

Theon is a gobshte. That's his character.

Well he's nailed on for an Emmy so.

Sleepy · 02-05-2012 2:20pm

Remember his background: handed over as a hostage at a young age to the Starks who treated him pretty kindly for a prisoner. He's brought up thinking he's very important: the heir to his father's status as Lord of the Iron Islands. He hasn't ever been taught much of the Iron Islanders ways though: the Ironborn don't respect lineage, they respect strength.

So, he had a fairly traumatic event as a young boy being handed over to the men who demolished his father's rebellion, he grows up believing he's far more important than he actually is, thought he was earning his own honour (as the Starks would have seen it) at Robb's side on the battlefield and then learns fairly harshly that his family regard him as having been "made soft" by the Starks.

He's playing the part quite well, imho. As a fan of the books I've actually warmed far more to Alfie Allen's portrayal of Theon than I did to the character as I read him.

Talisman · 02-05-2012 5:56pm

I watched the five episodes back to back - a bit of a head melter, I'm not sure what happened in what episode so forgive me if this is a bit all over the place.

Mod Edit: Veiled Book Spoilers

The second series seems a lot darker than the first - I can't help the feeling that none of the characters are "safe". In the first series it was obvious that Ned Stark was a lamb surrounded by wolves but the other characters were relatively safe - I don't see that happening this series. Maybe it's to do with now knowing how treacherous the whole realm is.

Theon Greyjoy's move against Winterfell is going to be his undoing. He's leading a band of pirates to the place he grew up. The crew don't take too well to being told what to do by a person they have no respect for. Theon probably thinks he'll get some kudos for capturing Winterfell when chances are they will burn the place to the ground. They are after all Theon's father's men and they certainly won't have a soft spot for the Starks - if Theon says don't touch the Stark kids he's likely to get sliced and diced himself.

I like the Brianne(?) character, she seems a bit simple minded but she's a lightning quick terminator with a sword. I'd put my money on her in a duel with Jamie Lannister or even The Mountain.

Tyrion Lannister certainly knows how to play the game at Kings Landing the way he flushed out Master Pycelle, but letting his lady friend become Sansa's hand maiden could be his undoing. Varys has conned him into placing her within the grasp of Cersei - exactly what Tyrion didn't want.

Anyone else think there is a parallel between Bran sending all his fit and able men to defend a village and the Night's Watch charging north of the Wall? I mean they've spelled out that the leader of the Wildlings used to be one of them, he knows how they operate and he is using that knowledge against them. What's to stop his army from circling around the men on the hill and heading straight for the Wall? There's no Night's Watch force there to defend it now - school boy error ala Brann.

By the looks of it, Daenerys won't be involved in the war for the Iron Throne for years - the dragons aren't exactly giant bean stalks in terms of growth spurts. But they seem to be the only hope of those south of the wall. The way to kill the reanimated dead is to burn them for which purpose having a dragon about would be handy unless Stannis Baratheon's Lady in Red (forget the name of the character) can fart flame clouds.

Judging by the volume of Wildfire stored at Kings Landing, the fleet of ships Stannis is sending in will be go the way of the Spanish Armada.

The Brotherhood - are they the men that Ned Stark sent to hunt down The Mountain and his men but were subsequently declared outlaws after Cersei seized power?

Final query - the guy who killed the Tickler was it my imagination or does he speak like the guy that was giving Arya dance lessons?

Blowfish · 02-05-2012 6:25pm

Talisman wrote: »

The Brotherhood - are they the men that Ned Stark sent to hunt down The Mountain and his men but were subsequently declared outlaws after Cersei seized power?

Yes.

Talisman wrote: »

Final query - the guy who killed the Tickler was it my imagination or does he speak like the guy that was giving Arya dance lessons?

They both came from the same city, namely Braavos.

Syferus · 02-05-2012 6:34pm

I imagine the dragons being more a recruitment tool than an actual weapon of war, especially unless they start procreating very fast. People will flock to her cause because she's the lineal queen and because she has dragons, it's those people that will give her a shot at winning.

Arnold Layne · 02-05-2012 8:53pm

Talisman wrote: »

I watched the five episodes back to back - a bit of a head melter, I'm not sure what happened in what episode so forgive me if this is a bit all over the place.

Methinks, thou has dabbled in the ASOFIAF, ser

Talisman · 03-05-2012 1:07am

Syferus wrote: »

I imagine the dragons being more a recruitment tool than an actual weapon of war, especially unless they start procreating very fast. People will flock to her cause because she's the lineal queen and because she has dragons, it's those people that will give her a shot at winning.

Surely the purpose of the dragons is to torch the armies/towns/castles etc. A dragon in full working order on a battle field would be absolutely devastating and terrify the **** out of the enemy. At present they aren't of much use and are simply trinkets.

Talisman · 03-05-2012 2:09am

Arnold Layne wrote: »

Methinks, thou has dabbled in the ASOFIAF, ser

A Song Of Ice And Fire? I read the first book while watching the first series. I haven't gone near the second book and don't intend to until after the series is finished.

My observations are based purely on watching the tv show but having read the first book I have seen how plot lines can get compressed in the tv series. The dialogue in the tv show gives away a lot, X says something in episode 1 and Y happens in episode 3 - people who haven't read the book piece it together and think it's great because they filled in the blanks themselves. If you keep that in mind while watching the show things start to jump out - nearly every piece of dialogue/incident has a purpose.

For example in the case of Rob Stark he has promised to marry one of the daughters of Lord Frey(?) that was a condition for his army being allowed to cross the river. In one of the episodes in this series he meets a beauty on a battlefield of all places and he seems smitten with her. I don't think she was added to the cast for a cameo appearance - my money would be on Rob Stark repeating the sins of his father.

Another one that stood out for me is the girl that was married to Remly Baratheon said that she didn't want to be a queen, she wanted to be THE QUEEN. The girl has ambition, the only way she could be the queen is if she were married to a king and the only one of them that's hanging around at the moment is Joffrey. Conveniently he's not yet married to Sansa, who could be traded for Jamie Lannister - didn't Littlefinger say this to Catelyn Stark at the camp? Ambitious girl's group fled the camp before Stannis arrived and are considered his enemy. Tyrion Lannister is in the process of trying to shore up support for the Lannisters by marrying off Cersei's children. Her marrying Joffrey would make an alliance between two enemies of Stannis Baratheon.

I could be miles off but some of these potential plot lines seem to write themselves.

Others are still developing and have a story arc that presumably will span the entire series - these leave me with questions. e.g. Brann's dreams of being a direwolf/the three eyed crow. Is he seeing what the animal is seeing? Can he possess/control the animal? Does Daenerys have a similar connection to the dragons? From the conversations with Meera it seems obvious that as a Wildling she knows more about the old ways than Master Luwin who just dismisses the dreams.

[Deleted User] · 03-05-2012 8:46am

I kind of regret not reading the books through before watching the series. I was halfway through the first book when I gave in to watching the series and from that amount I read you notice the amount they take out. I can only imagine what else has been left out. Saying that I still love the tv series, it's as addicting as crack.

Newaglish · 03-05-2012 10:15am

Talisman wrote: »

From the conversations with Meera it seems obvious that as a Wildling she knows more about the old ways than Master Luwin who just dismisses the dreams.

Busted. Meera is in the books, not in the TV show. We can all see through your surprisingly accurate predictions. Why would you even bother?

Mr E · 03-05-2012 11:04am

Spoilers added. Talisman - please move yourself over to the "Have read the books" threads.

mikemac1 · 03-05-2012 11:12am

Was also wondering what the best tactic North of the wall would be

Eliminate the lookouts and assassinate that leader
Or fall back to the wall and prepare to defend it

There are pros and cons to both which are pretty clear

The pressures of command I suppose, I don't know which is correct at the moment and that has me looking forward to next week

touts · 03-05-2012 11:13am

Talisman wrote: »

Surely the purpose of the dragons is to torch the armies/towns/castles etc. A dragon in full working order on a battle field would be absolutely devastating and terrify the **** out of the enemy. At present they aren't of much use and are simply trinkets.

Has it ever been said what killed the Dragons the last time around? Did they just die out or were they hunted down and killed. If it was the latter then they may not be such a mighty weapon that Danyirus (I think I fecked up that spelling) can just land in the Seven Kingdoms and be a real force in the war with just Three Dragons and her small band from the desert. She needs an army and that billionaire guy can buy her one.

barrybones_wx · 03-05-2012 11:19am

ive read the first four books - started after watching season 1 - and i'm kinda sad now cause of the fun you're all having watching season 2 pan out and guessing what happens next... sorta wish i hadn't read them now! Good luck with the guessing!

mikemac1 · 03-05-2012 11:28am

Talisman wrote: »

I watched the five episodes back to back - a bit of a head melter, I'm not sure what happened in what episode so forgive me if this is a bit all over the place.

Yet you post about Meera Reed

Why would you come in here and start dressing up those predictions as guesses?

Do you think the non-readers are impressed with your knowledge?

I wish I hadn't read your post

touts · 03-05-2012 11:32am

mikemac1 wrote: »

Was also wondering what the best tactic North of the wall would be

Eliminate the lookouts and assassinate that leader
Or fall back to the wall and prepare to defend it

There are pros and cons to both which are pretty clear

The pressures of command I suppose, I don't know which is correct at the moment and that has me looking forward to next week

When you consider the success of real life mighty walls like the Theodosian walls around Constantinople against really fierce armies like the Huns you would fancy the chances of a small group of men holding that wall against the largest army.

Add to that the fact that it was starvation and disease to those trapped within the walls that normally lead to a city falling and then remember that behind that walls is the almost endless resources of the Seven Kingdoms while "outside" the walls is a barren frozen wasteland I would fancy the Night's watch to hold out longer than an army of all the "Wildlings" combined.

Of course betrayal was also another reason why cities fell so it would be interesting to know more about why this King Mace defected from the Nights Watch and are there any others still in the Nights Watch that might be sympathetic to him.

So if it was me I would high tail it back to the wall and hang a "Come and knock us off if you think you can" banner over the top.

plastic glass · 03-05-2012 11:34am

mikemac1 wrote: »

Do you think the non-readers are impressed with your knowledge?

I wish I hadn't read your post

Me too. Was really enjoying this thread and its a place to go to see what other people were thinking about the tv episodes etc but that's twice in the space of a few days I have read stuff I did not want to know from the book readers. Don't really know what they are trying to achieve. I for one am out ( I won't be missed as was not really a contributor but was gearing up to be one ha ha)

Season 2 Episode 5 - *Have NOT Read the Books*

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Season 2 Episode 5 - Have NOT Read the Books