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church against reduction of vat on condoms !!

124

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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,196 ✭✭✭BrianCalgary


    bluewolf wrote: »
    Because they were in love then one day they weren't.
    People grow apart. You can't just randomly choose to love someone.
    I don't know, maybe a lot of older couples that have a long history together have the deep friendship it takes, but if you are unhappy with someone and it's not reconcilable that's it.

    It is not a random choice, it is aconscious choice. When I met my wife I didn't love her. I certainly enjoyed her looks. :)

    As we came to know each other better, I decided that I wanted to see her and be with her all the time. She decided the same about me.

    It came to a point when we decided to be married because we choose to spend our lives together. I promised to love her all my days. I still do. We have been at it for 22 years. I woke up this morning and looked at her and decided that today I would love her still. She also amazingly enough decides to love me too.

    So love is a choice.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,310 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    I woke up this morning and looked at her and decided that today I would love her still.

    Ok. Let's look at it this way - when you woke up this morning did you think "I hardly like this woman anymore, she's completely different from the person I fell in love with and the qualities I loved are gone" and then subsequently decide "well I will love her today anyway" ? That's what we were talking about with the unhappy marriages where people just don't love each other anymore.

    It's great and all that yours is working well, but it doesn't remotely speak for anyone else's.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    bluewolf wrote: »
    It's great and all that yours is working well, but it doesn't remotely speak for anyone else's.

    It speaks for mine.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,310 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    PDN wrote: »
    It speaks for mine.

    Alright. 4 down, about a billion to go...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,551 ✭✭✭panda100


    Abstinence. That program is working wonders in the US isnt it?

    Abstinence will never work in America or any other Capitalist country where sex is in our faces 24/7 .America is a far too sexualised society for an abstinence programme to be succesful. Sex is used to sell everything, its on tv's billboards, music videos everywhere. The role models for young women are the likes of Beyonce and Britney all who flaunt their sexuality and use sex to appeal to the masses.
    Abstinence programmes have proved very succesful in Russia, a country which has not reached the capitalist heights of the US.
    http://freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1420071/posts
    Since an abstinence program was implemented there in 2005 there has been a decrease in teen pregnancy and std's.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    You are attempting to put words in my mouth, Why do you continually do this to myself and other posters?

    No I'm saying that the parents have a responsibility to wake up every day and choose to love each other and commit to their marriages and their families, and to do so over self.

    I love the Rotary motto, 'service over self'.

    You are also generalising that the broken up marriages were unhappy and dysfunctional. What about the ones where they just didn't love each other anymore and just gave up?

    A hold on a minute there BC.

    You said that since divorce was introduced in 1970s the jails in Canada are full of people from divorced families, asserting a direct link between the introduction of divorce and increase levels of crime cause by that introduction.

    Are you now saying you withdraw that assertion or are you standing by it?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Love is a choice. If you didn't love the person why did you marry them in the first place?

    That doesn't make any sense. Surely you mean marriage is a choice, a choice a person makes because they love someone.

    If love was a choice why would anyone ever have a broken heart? They would simply rationally decide not to love the person any more.

    Or do you not believe in broken hearts?
    You have to wake up every day and look at your partner and just love them.
    I'm sure your wife would be thrilled to know that every day you have to make yourself love her :rolleyes:

    Until you make that decision in the morning each day are you saying you don't love her?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,196 ✭✭✭BrianCalgary


    Wicknight wrote: »
    That doesn't make any sense. Surely you mean marriage is a choice, a choice a person makes because they love someone.

    2 - If love was a choice why would anyone ever have a broken heart? They would simply rationally decide not to love the person any more.

    Or do you not believe in broken hearts??
    Yes broken hearts happen. If I love person A, who claims that she loves me and then one day she decides not to love me anymore, then my heart is broken.

    So to part 2, a broken heart occurs because one of the two decides no tto love someone anymore.

    Wicknight wrote: »
    'Im sure your wife would be thrilled to know that every day you have to make yourself love her :rolleyes:

    Until you make that decision in the morning each day are you saying you don't love her?

    You know what she is thrilled that everyday I get up and I decide to love her. She is thrilled that another human being can make such a coice to sacrifice self in order to give to her.

    I am equally amazed how she can also get up everyday and decide to love me, with my moods and selfishness, it is thrilling that she makes a conscious choice everyday to love me, off all people.

    As for your last comment, tbh it is pretty stupid. The love I have for my wife is ongoing and growing because I understand that it is a choice. Our personalities are opposite, our love languages are different. It would have been very easy to say years ago, 'she is driving me nuts, I just dont love her anymore, especially when there is cutie A just over there'.

    But the Christian teaching is to love her despite her foibles and to recognize and love the person she is and to appreciate the differences and to laugh at them and to work with each other. To understand that marriage is a commitment, an unselfish commitment where the well being and happiness of your partner supercedes your own desires.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,196 ✭✭✭BrianCalgary


    Wicknight wrote: »
    A hold on a minute there BC.

    You said that since divorce was introduced in 1970s the jails in Canada are full of people from divorced families, asserting a direct link between the introduction of divorce and increase levels of crime cause by that introduction.

    Are you now saying you withdraw that assertion or are you standing by it?

    Here you go again wicknight, reading things into what I said and then twisting it. You are one of the most dishonest posters around. Please stop it.

    No I said that divorce was introduced in Canada in the early 70's. Christians argued that the children of broken marriages would be harmed without the stability and security of a commited mother and father. Now a generation later (I guess I have to spell out these easy things for you:rolleyes:) we see th ejails full of men who grew up without fathers, becasue divorce allowed fathers to be absent.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,386 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    If I love person A, who claims that she loves me and then one day she decides not to love me anymore, then my heart is broken. [...] So to part 2, a broken heart occurs because one of the two decides not to love someone anymore.
    I'm really surprised that both you and PDN -- and other christians? -- seem to think that love is something that you consciously turn on and turn off, or consciously decide to do or not to do. Never expected that, I must say.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,196 ✭✭✭BrianCalgary


    robindch wrote: »
    I'm really surprised that both you and PDN -- and other christians? -- seem to think that love is something that you consciously turn on and turn off, or consciously decide to do or not to do. Never expected that, I must say.

    That is because it is Robin.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,386 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    we see the jails full of men who grew up without fathers, becasue divorce allowed fathers to be absent.
    Where is your data for this? And how does your data control for other circumstances which cause social disorder?


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,386 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    That is because it is Robin.
    That's where we differ. When discussing with PDN, I compared his decision to love somebody to a conscious decision to find somebody funny. I can't control whom I find funny, any more than I can control whom I love. It's a subconscious thing and I find that it verges on the disturbing to me that there are people who are able control their emotions to that extent.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,196 ✭✭✭BrianCalgary


    robindch wrote: »
    That's where we differ. When discussing with PDN, I compared his decision to love somebody to a conscious decision to find somebody funny. I can't control whom I find funny, any more than I can control whom I love. It's a subconscious thing and I find that it verges on the disturbing to me that there are people who are able control their emotions to that extent.

    Humour and love are two different things completely.

    You are comparing apples and oranges.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,386 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Humour and love are two different things completely.
    You may find it so, I certainly don't.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,196 ✭✭✭BrianCalgary


    robindch wrote: »
    Where is your data for this? And how does your data control for other circumstances which cause social disorder?

    According to the National Center for Children in Poverty, boys without fathers are twice as likely to drop out of school, twice as likely to go to jail, and nearly four times as likely to need treatment for emotional and behavioral problems as boys with fathers.3


    3 U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, Morehouse Report, National Center for Children in Poverty, Bureau of the Census (Washington, D.C.).

    Full articel here:

    http://www.focusonthefamily.com/docstudy/newsletters/A000000331.cfm


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,386 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    According to the National Center for Children in Poverty, boys without fathers are twice as likely to drop out of school, twice as likely to go to jail, and nearly four times as likely to need treatment for emotional and behavioral problems as boys with fathers [...] 3 U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, Morehouse Report, National Center for Children in Poverty, Bureau of the Census (Washington, D.C.).
    The National Center for Children in Poverty doesn't seem to have any record of a report called the "Morehouse Report" and searching its website for "prison" and "divorce" produces no relevant-looking results either.

    The NCCP's home page is here -- perhaps somebody else can locate this elusive report?

    With just a brief google check, I can only find this report which links "Morehouse" with a report on absentee fathers who happen to be both black and low-income, two things which are known to be correlated to dropping out of school and ending up in prison; from this data, it would be quite dishonest to claim the conclusion that a father's absenteeism can cause his kid to end up in prison.

    Is this the report that Dobson is referring to?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,196 ✭✭✭BrianCalgary


    US Department of Health and Human Services has this page:

    http://fatherhood.hhs.gov/index.shtml


    Morehouse report here:

    www.acf.hhs.gov/healthymarriage/pdf/winshape_report_final.pdf - 2006-03-15


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,257 ✭✭✭hairyheretic


    Lame, 18.4% of abortions by married women, Still leaves 83.6% by unmarrieds, that are paid for out of taxpayers pockest and eat up valuable resources for health care dollars. So yes, in the words of Marley, 'mankind is my business'.

    If you want to bring money into it, how much to raise a child til they're capable of contributing to society and taking care of themself? How much for food, shelter, clothing, education? I suspect a hell of a lot more cost.

    If you could prevent one abortion from taking place, would you be prepared to pay for every cost that child will incur for the next 16 to 18 years?


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,310 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake



    You know what she is thrilled that everyday I get up and I decide to love her. She is thrilled that another human being can make such a coice to sacrifice self in order to give to her.

    Whaaaaat?
    That sounds scary. She has so little self worth she's glad of any love she can get? And she thinks it a sacrifice?

    But the Christian teaching is to love her despite her foibles and to recognize and love the person she is
    Well that's big of you...

    Sometimes I just wonder, between this and the "you can switch love on and off" thing...


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,196 ✭✭✭BrianCalgary


    If you want to bring money into it, how much to raise a child til they're capable of contributing to society and taking care of themself? How much for food, shelter, clothing, education? I suspect a hell of a lot more cost.

    If you could prevent one abortion from taking place, would you be prepared to pay for every cost that child will incur for the next 16 to 18 years?

    There are many people that I know that would be very willing to adopt a child. And yes I would be one.

    But why not abstain and restrain from commiting fornication and prevent such a loss to a child. Or has our society becaome so selfish as to put personal pleasure above the well being of children?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,196 ✭✭✭BrianCalgary


    bluewolf wrote: »
    Whaaaaat?
    That sounds a fair bit off. She has so little self worth she's glad of any love she can get? And she thinks it a sacrifice?
    The low self esteem you seem to have judging by various posts in the past combined with this makes me wonder sometimes......

    And where do you get off making such a statement about my wife?:mad:

    I actually dont have low self esteem either. Just really pleased and honoured that a woman such as my wife would choose to love me for my character and ethics as opposed to relying on a reaction to the senses.

    That aside, she is a very confident woman. We both recognise that the love that we have between each other is a lot more special because we choose to do so and have made that intellectual decision to do so, as opposed to a chemical reaction in the brain brought on by the senses.

    bluewolf wrote: »
    Well that's big of you...


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,310 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    And where do you get off making such a statement about my wife?:mad:
    I didn't make statements, I genuinely asked questions because
    "She is thrilled that another human being can make such a choice to sacrifice self"
    alarmed me when I read it. Still does.

    That said, this whole conversation is starting to alarm me, I might just have to stay out...

    edit:
    alright, hang on a second.
    We both recognise that the love that we have between each other is a lot more special because we choose to do so and have made that intellectual decision to do so, as opposed to a chemical reaction in the brain brought on by the senses.
    What on earth is that supposed to imply...? that your love is somehow better that other peoples'?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,196 ✭✭✭BrianCalgary


    bluewolf wrote: »
    I didn't make statements, I genuinely asked questions because
    "She is thrilled that another human being can make such a choice to sacrifice self"
    alarmed me when I read it. Still does.

    That said, this whole conversation is starting to alarm me, I might just have to stay out...

    edit:
    alright, hang on a second.

    What on earth is that supposed to imply...? that your love is somehow better that other peoples'?


    It came acroos wrong. She is thrilled that I another person would sacrifice myself for her. I in turn feel the same knowing thatshe has chosen to love me and sacrifice herself to me.

    Makes for a great relationship, God's way.

    Men love your wives as Christ loved the Church (giving Himself for it)
    Women respect your husbands.


    What a wonderful formula for a great marriage and household.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,196 ✭✭✭BrianCalgary


    bluewolf wrote: »

    What on earth is that supposed to imply...? that your love is somehow better that other peoples'?

    Absolutely, because it is by choice and not animal instinct.

    Why is it that you love your wife/girlfriend?


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,310 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    Absolutely, because it is by choice and not animal instinct.

    Why is it that you love your wife/girlfriend?

    I love my *ahem* boyfriend, because he is wonderful. Many qualities included in that.

    So you are saying many people are in love by "animal instinct"... right.

    She is thrilled that I another person would sacrifice myself for her.
    Sacrificing what/how? Just to be clear here


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,196 ✭✭✭BrianCalgary


    bluewolf wrote: »
    I love my *ahem* boyfriend, because he is wonderful. Many qualities included in that.

    So you are saying many people are in love by "animal instinct"... right.
    :o


    Yep, the way our society portrays sex as being love and love as being sex. It based on looks, it takes away personality and character. It doesn't talk about the struggles that married couple go through and the highs and lows of a long term commited relationship. Th ebenfits of working through th etroubled times with someone at your side and even being ahead of and behind you on whatever occurs.

    Our society teaches that as soon as you fall out of love as soon as the 'feeling' subsides, then break it up.

    I see these values in our young. Girls that just talk about the 'hot' guy or the guys who are just interested in a girl because of her assets.

    We get lessened to a package of rated hotness in which to judge our worthiness of receiving love.

    When it should be character that determines and the choice to look for someone with that character to love and cherish.

    bluewolf wrote: »
    Sacrificing what/how? Just to be clear here

    Well I sacrificed my desire to go to Old Trafford on a regular basis, I'd rather spend the money on building our lives together.


    I am a sport nut and love attending live sporting events, my wife not really. I gave that up in favour of being with her and as a result I have come to appreciate live theatre and musicals.

    So although giving up Hockey Night in Canada on the surface appeared as a sacrifice at the time, I have actually grown quite a bit richer because of my wife.

    Those are just a couple of things that coem to mind that all these years later seem rather silly things to be bothered about.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,386 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    That's not the Morehouse Report, that's a report produced by the "WinShape Retreat Center".

    The elusive Morehouse Report (which I still haven't found) seems to have been written by the "Morehouse Research Institute" which lives on the internet here and (from here) is an institute which "is a national clearinghouse of information about the more than 18 million African-American males in the United States".

    From this I believe that the report that Dobson quotes was not produced by the "National Center for Children in Poverty" like he says, but by a different institution with a specific research interest that he does not mention. Neither is the report, like he implies, a fully controlled sociological study of the "average" males worldwide, but of a specific subgroup (black, living in the USA) which have known social problems with drugs, crime, low-income, low-education, etc, etc which extend well beyond the simple picture of absentee fathers that he paints.

    So, I conclude that Dobson has behaved completely dishonestly in selectively mis-quoting research, no doubt for for grubby political ends. And also, that the conclusion that you hold is completely unsupported by the evidence that you quote.

    .


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,386 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    BTW, sorry to be such a crashing bore about this, but it really bugs me to see that Dobson can only gain credibility by lying to decent people -- see my short wikipedia entry for why this bugs me.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,196 ✭✭✭BrianCalgary


    robindch wrote: »
    That's not the Morehouse Report, that's a report produced by the "WinShape Retreat Center".

    The elusive Morehouse Report (which I still haven't found) seems to have been written by the "Morehouse Research Institute" which lives on the internet here and (from here) is an institute which "is a national clearinghouse of information about the more than 18 million African-American males in the United States".

    From this I believe that the report that Dobson quotes was not produced by the "National Center for Children in Poverty" like he says, but by a different institution. Neither is it, like he implies, a fully controlled sociological study of the "average" males worldwide, but of a specific subgroup (black, living in the USA) which have known social problems which extend well beyond the simplistic picture of absentee fathers that he paints.

    So, I conclude that Dobson has behaved completely dishonestly in selectively mis-quoting research, no doubt for for grubby political ends. And also, that the conclusion that you hold is completely unsupported by the evidence that you quote.

    Try again?


    Go here: http://fatherhood.hhs.gov/index.shtml

    Type in morehouse report in the search and you get the above document.

    Which has on Pg 3:
    The 1999 Statement from the African-American Fathers project by the Morehouse Research Institute, Turning the Corner on Father Absence in Black America, marked a significant developmental milestone in this nation’s social policy relating to families. The Statement highlighted an American problem that crosses racial, ethnic and class lines:
    Far too many children were growing up in communities where growing out of wedlock births, separation, and divorce are robbing millions of children of the spiritual, emotional and material support of their fathers. Sadly, these children did not fare as well as children raised by married parents. And, this disturbing trend posed significant threats to African American children, to the African American community, and to our Nation.
    Representatives from the private, not-for-profit sector, all levels of government, and the philanthropic community had gathered at Morehouse College to participate in the meetings and the deliberations that resulted in the Statement. Most participants and sponsors believed that this expansive assortment of groups, organizations, and individuals would form a line of attack that could address the barriers faced by American children, especially the children in communities of color.

    And the Turning the Corner on Father Absence in Black America can be found here: www.americanvalues.org/turning_the_corner.pdf ·


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