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Sharing Leap Card Fine (Old thread)

  • 30-07-2013 9:13pm
    #1
    ninjabox
    Closed Accounts Posts: 100 ✭✭


    Hi,

    I gave my partner my leap card cause he had no change, there was credit on it and he tagged on and tagged off. But he was caught using it by an inspector. The inspector said he might have ground for an appeal because the journey was paid for.

    Do you think he might have grounds for appeal? Also the inspector ticked the "Fare evasion" box at the back of the fine slip but technically it wasn't fare evasion because the trip was paid for.

    I'm going to ring Irish Rail in the morning but just wanted to see what people think here.


«1

Comments

  • #2
    coylemj
    Registered Users Posts: 25,318 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    What do you mean by 'he was caught using it by an inspector'?

    Where does it say that you can't lend a Leap card to a friend? There's no name on the card so why was the inspector concerned about who owned the card and why did your friend even admit that it wasn't his card? Did the inspector ask him if it was his card?

    This doesn't add up, IR gets paid no matter who uses the card so the inspector has no basis for issuing a fine.

    EDIT: Unless you were both travelling at the same time in which case there is a problem. On a bus you can pay with a single Leap card for you and one or more travelling companions, the driver can issue tickets for as many passengers you bring with you (the cardholder doesn't get a ticket) but you can't do that on the Luas or Dart so technically it was a fare evasion.


  • #3
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users Posts: 12,956 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    ninjabox wrote: »
    Hi,

    I gave my partner my leap card cause he had no change, there was credit on it and he tagged on and tagged off. But he was caught using it by an inspector. The inspector said he might have ground for an appeal because the journey was paid for.

    Do you think he might have grounds for appeal? Also the inspector ticked the "Fare evasion" box at the back of the fine slip but technically it wasn't fare evasion because the trip was paid for.

    I'm going to ring Irish Rail in the morning but just wanted to see what people think here.

    Had you got a valid ticket or Leap for your trip?


  • #4
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


  • #5
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    ninjabox wrote: »
    Hi,

    I gave my partner my leap card cause he had no change, there was credit on it and he tagged on and tagged off. But he was caught using it by an inspector. The inspector said he might have ground for an appeal because the journey was paid for.

    Do you think he might have grounds for appeal? Also the inspector ticked the "Fare evasion" box at the back of the fine slip but technically it wasn't fare evasion because the trip was paid for.

    I'm going to ring Irish Rail in the morning but just wanted to see what people think here.

    Unless Irish Rail are insisting on all Leap card passengers only using their very own leap cards then this is unenforceable! Once the journey was paid for there can be no fare evasion unless you have a personalised leap card which afaik can't be used by anyone else.

    https://www.leapcard.ie/en/PageSetting/ContentViewer.aspx?Val=CG%2fCj953WkPB%2b7fwjkLFshsyP7wecX6fiV0VBn3Q632F20yhboVXGTVmv%2b2bImvcFvyDWv8wk%2bd4E5kAGPCvjpJvBUgOhvVEg%2fB6ZgVyLiI6nLqx13jMpsQIKgDUASmGM793kdSI9FJOtf2oYKBBrP3uRbgVAG0ZGo31awr2Vmg%3d
    10.2 Leap Cards which are not personalised and do not contain any Tickets (i.e. Travel Credit only) are transferable for separate journeys but cannot be used by more than one passenger on the same journey.


  • #6
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users Posts: 12,956 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    Fred Swanson wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    They didn't say for sure that they weren't traveling, hence my asking same.

    Unless it is a personalised or a child card I can't see why a penalty fare was issued in this case; it seems bizarre.


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  • #7
    hfallada
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,180 ✭✭✭hfallada


    If the inspector is telling you appeal it. I guess he was hinting at appealing it. I was "fined" for not having a student ID on me and inspector told me to bring my ID to Dublin Bus HQ and it would be fine. I got a generic letter saying I had a €50 fine in the post a week later. I went to Dublin Bus and the fine was erased.

    I think inspectors just have formalities and you just have to appeal it. What is there to lose?


  • #8
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,239 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    ninjabox wrote: »
    I gave my partner my leap card cause he had no change
    What type of Leap Card? Is it personalised?


  • #9
    No Pants
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,347 ✭✭✭No Pants


    I give the missus my Leap card occasionally. It's not a personalised one, so I don't see the issue. On DB we can both easily travel on it, but not rail services. Can't even buy a second ticket at a TVM, which seems daft. Not sure about the Luas. We did take one short trip together and I did use the Leap for at least one of us, but that was back in February, so I can't recall if I was able to buy a second ticket at the TVM with the Leap or not.


  • #10
    whomitconcerns
    Registered Users Posts: 4,308 ✭✭✭whomitconcerns


    regardless of personalised card. Does it say non transferable on the back? Did he say it was not his card?


  • #11
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


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  • #12
    whomitconcerns
    Registered Users Posts: 4,308 ✭✭✭whomitconcerns


    well then i dont see what their issue was? Maybe I misunderstood, were both of you using the same ticket at the same time, as has already been suggested?


  • #13
    No Pants
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,347 ✭✭✭No Pants


    We really need more details from the OP here, especially how many people were travelling. If there were two people travelling, then the comment that the trip was already paid for would be false.


  • #14
    cdebru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭cdebru


    Student leap cards with the ID can only be used by the person identified on the card anyone else using it is liable to a standard fare. It is in the terms and conditions of those leap cards.


  • #15
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    whomitconcerns wrote: »
    regardless of personalised card. Does it say non transferable on the back? Did he say it was not his card?

    The only cards that are transferable are those without a picture of the named owner on it.

    This will mean any personalised card is not transferable, as you can't give it to anyone but yourself to use.

    We need to know more info from op on what happened before we could determine what occurred.

    "Appeal" is a standard response from the inspector if you feel a fine is not applicable. It doesn't indicate that the inspector feels the fine should not apply.


  • #16
    brownacid
    Registered Users Posts: 484 ✭✭brownacid


    How do inspectors check see if the leap card has been tagged on? Do they have a tag with them to scan it against?


  • #17
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,541 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Yes.


  • #18
    coylemj
    Registered Users Posts: 25,318 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    stop-sign.jpg

    Can I just suggest that there is zero point in continuing this thread without the clarification that we're seeking from the OP?


  • #19
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users Posts: 12,956 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    coylemj wrote: »
    stop-sign.jpg

    hammertime.jpg

    :)


  • #20
    Spook_ie
    Registered Users Posts: 10,896 ✭✭✭✭Spook_ie


    10. Transferability

    10.1 Personalised Leap Cards and Leap Cards with Tickets on them are not transferable.

    10.2 Leap Cards which are not personalised and do not contain any Tickets (i.e. Travel Credit only) are transferable for separate journeys but cannot be used by more than one passenger on the same journey.

    10.3 These Terms and Conditions in relation to transferability are subject always to each Transport Operator’s Conditions of Carriage.

    10.4 Any attempted use of a personalised Leap Card by a person not entitled to use that card may result in the confiscation of the Leap Card and may result in the Leap Card customer being charged the appropriate standard fare in respect of the improper use (as determined by the relevant Transport Operator) and you may not be entitled to receive a refund of any Travel Credit. If your Leap Card is confiscated please refer to the relevant Transport Operator.


  • #21
    Qprmeath
    Registered Users Posts: 902 ✭✭✭Qprmeath


    Exact same story as original poster. Personalised card used by my wife on train. €100 fine plus standard fare plus losing what was on card. Seems excessive seeing as its not fare evasion. Have appealed with no success. Is there anything else I can do? She was travelling on her own.


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  • #22
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,584 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    It's to do with Taxsaver Fraud, since all taxsavers require a personalised leap card.

    IE: Two people using a single taxsaver ticket deprive the company of revenue they should have got by having one each. This very much is fare evasion because of the tax element.


  • #23
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    I don't understand why you would take someone elses card to the train station when you can get a new card at the train station for yourself. You don't need change.

    The only reason to take someone else's card to a station is to get through the turnstiles. Is there some other possible scenario?


  • #24
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,541 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    devnull wrote: »
    It's to do with Taxsaver Fraud, since all taxsavers require a personalised leap card.

    IE: Two people using a single taxsaver ticket deprive the company of revenue they should have got by having one each. This very much is fare evasion because of the tax element.

    It would have always been viewed as fare evasion - with a standard monthly/annual ticket, it was always restricted to being used by the person with the appropriate photo ID.

    These tickets are not transferable and as such it's fare evasion.


  • #25
    Qprmeath
    Registered Users Posts: 902 ✭✭✭Qprmeath


    But no picture its all good and no fine? That's the frustrating bit. I wouldn't have bothered with the picture if Id known.


  • #26
    Tordelback
    Registered Users Posts: 677 ✭✭✭Tordelback


    It has to be the tax saver aspect that's the issue, since it's impossible for two people to tag-on for the same Luas journey, since the second tag-onwill either be refused by the machine as 'too soon', or be counted as tagging off.


  • #27
    cython
    Registered Users Posts: 4,757 ✭✭✭cython


    Qprmeath wrote: »
    Exact same story as original poster. Personalised card used by my wife on train. €100 fine plus standard fare plus losing what was on card. Seems excessive seeing as its not fare evasion. Have appealed with no success. Is there anything else I can do? She was travelling on her own.
    devnull wrote: »
    It's to do with Taxsaver Fraud, since all taxsavers require a personalised leap card.

    IE: Two people using a single taxsaver ticket deprive the company of revenue they should have got by having one each. This very much is fare evasion because of the tax element.
    lxflyer wrote: »
    It would have always been viewed as fare evasion - with a standard monthly/annual ticket, it was always restricted to being used by the person with the appropriate photo ID.

    These tickets are not transferable and as such it's fare evasion.
    Lads, let's step back and actually observe that there is a massive hole in the information provided. Just because the leap card is personalised does not mean that there is actually a valid train ticket loaded onto it, and that this was what the poster's wife used. It is also possible that his wife was using travel credit from the e-purse, in which case while the fine may still be technically correct, it is heavy handed and the accusations of fare evasion here are jumping the gun. I myself have a personalised leap card from having had a taxsaver ticket, but I did't renew at the start of this year so I don't currently have any tickets on it. Technically only I can use this, but at this point it is a theft prevention measure rather than any issue of fare evasion.
    Qprmeath wrote: »
    But no picture its all good and no fine? That's the frustrating bit. I wouldn't have bothered with the picture if Id known.
    As noted, Taxsaver tickets require a personalised card, so if you have or had one on it, that was never an option. Perhaps you could clarify the above RE whether a taxsaver ticket was used, or travel credit though?


  • #28
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,541 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    cython wrote: »
    As noted, Taxsaver tickets require a personalised card, so if you have or had one on it, that was never an option. Perhaps you could clarify the above RE whether a taxsaver ticket was used, or travel credit though?

    Seeing as you are being technical, I'd point out that there is no such thing as a "taxsaver ticket".

    There are monthly and annual tickets.

    You can buy them at full price or through the taxsaver scheme if your employer allows it.

    Anyway, the terms and conditions of LEAP Card state:
    10. Transferability
    10.1 Personalised Leap Cards and Leap Cards with Tickets on them are not transferable.


  • #29
    Qprmeath
    Registered Users Posts: 902 ✭✭✭Qprmeath


    Its a personalised leap card with auto top up on it. Not involved in taxsaver or never loaded a monthly or annual ticket on to it. Travel to Dublin occasionally on it but not used for work travel.


  • #30
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,541 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Qprmeath wrote: »
    Its a personalised leap card with auto top up on it. Not involved in taxsaver or never loaded a monthly or annual ticket on to it. Travel to Dublin occasionally on it but not used for work travel.



    Unfortunately they are not transferable as per the condition outlined above.


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  • #31
    machiavellianme
    Registered Users Posts: 12,400 ✭✭✭✭machiavellianme


    Why would you get it personalised? Surely that's extra hassle, does it have any benefits?


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