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Are the IMO deluded?

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    #32
    Memnoch
    Registered Users Posts: 4,276 ✭✭✭Memnoch


    Sand wrote: »
    Not really - sure another poster in support of the IMO was telling me it wasnt all about salaries, now another poster in support of the IMO is telling me its all about the salary. The reality is that salary is relative to what the employer can afford to pay for the asset (the employee), and what the employee can make for their asset (their time and expertise).

    If Irish consultants could make the rock star salaries, they'd be abroad making them. We are dealing with the dregs. The whingers and the moaners who cant be bothered going abroad and competing. They want to stay at home and *still* get the rock star salaries but without having to bother competing with the actual best in the world.

    I support the best Irish consultants going abroad and competing for world class salaries if they think they are up for it. But the boys and girls who aren't will have to benchmark themselves to Irish salaries, rather than world class salaries.




    I'll say it as often as it takes to sink in.




    These would be the world class Irish consultants you want to benchmark to world class salaries? Those are the people who cant perform surgery safely?

    Paying that class of consultant more wont lead to better results. It will lead to bad and average consultants getting more than they are owed due to no competition at all.




    Okay, good luck. Irish astronauts have to emigrate to grow to their true potential. You will too if you cant get by on a measly 175,000 Euro a year.



    Finally! Finally we get down to brass tacks.

    You're right - conditions and work practises in the health service are ridiculous. I don't see how that is solved by trying to pay the consultants rock star wages.

    Actual reform is required - but that might mean consultants needing to accept less than rock star status. Do you really think the current situation in Irish hospitals was arrived at by accident?

    Many Irish consultants are bullies and have too much power. The HSE isn't much better.

    However, it isn't a case of the dregs ending up here. Many irish consultants have come back home from abroad. They get world class training and do high level research at some of the best institutes in the world before coming back home, mostly for family reasons and because they want to raise their children here. They are very capable of getting jobs outside.

    But working and living conditions have deteriorated and this is making many people think twice.

    Let's not talk about NCHDs for whom the conditions are truly appalling.


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    #33
    dlouth15
    Registered Users Posts: 1,169 ✭✭✭dlouth15


    Memnoch wrote: »
    Many Irish consultants are bullies and have too much power.
    How much weight is given to consultants in the IMO as opposed to more junior doctors?


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    #34
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    FreudianSlippers wrote: »
    It's not a great salary for the level of education and skill. It's also not great when compared to other countries. I'm not even going to touch your silly comment about lawyers. :rolleyes:
    As long as the only other counties you compare to are English speaking, so that'd be about four of them.


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    #35
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Maybe if we paid consultants a non-rock star wage we could afford more of them and sort out our health system?
    "It's about conditions, not salaries" right?


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    #36
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    conorh91 wrote: »
    The biggest complaint I hear from NCHDs whom I know is that their consultants are essentially their managers; they are opposed to EWTD and (emotive language notwithstanding) they are considered slave drivers

    That's because they exercise autonomy in their role, similar to any sufficiently senior manager, or self-employed person in any area of the economy.
    So if consultants are in charge, why are they blaming everybody else for the state of the health system and their own working conditions?


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    #37
    donaghs
    Registered Users Posts: 2,691 ✭✭✭donaghs


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    So if consultants are in charge, why are they blaming everybody else for the state of the health system and their own working conditions?

    Good question.

    Another angle to say they are deluded is the €20 million pension they originally gave George MacNeice


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    #38
    nice_guy80
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,723 ✭✭✭nice_guy80


    donaghs wrote: »
    Good question.

    Another angle to say they are deluded is the €20 million pension they originally gave George MacNeice

    and they didn't bother to challenge the pension provision for him.
    so the gravy train can continue!


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    #39
    Tragedy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,057 ✭✭✭Tragedy


    Sand wrote: »
    If Irish consultants could make the rock star salaries, they'd be abroad making them.
    They frequently do.
    We are dealing with the dregs.
    We have world class nurses and Doctors, which is why they are in such high demand outside Ireland. If you disagree, do show some actual evidence before labelling every consultant in ireland 'dregs'.
    The whingers and the moaners who cant be bothered going abroad and competing.
    Evidence?
    They want to stay at home and *still* get the rock star salaries
    Evidence that consultants in Ireland earn salaries comparable to other developed countries?
    but without having to bother competing with the actual best in the world.
    How do they not have to compete with 'the actual best'? You just said Consultants in Ireland earn 'rock star salaries' - if that were true, the 'dregs' in Ireland would be competing with the actual best.
    I support the best Irish consultants going abroad and competing for world class salaries if they think they are up for it. But the boys and girls who aren't will have to benchmark themselves to Irish salaries, rather than world class salaries.
    So you're now stating that world class salaries attract world class Consultants. You're also stating that Ireland pays world class Consultants but only attracts dregs.


    In short, you have no point, no evidence, you're completely contradicting yourself every time you open your mouth and you just want to vacuously fart some rabble rousing nonsense.



    I'll say it as often as it takes to sink in.
    Why would factually untrue nonsense sink in?



    These would be the world class Irish consultants you want to benchmark to world class salaries? Those are the people who cant perform surgery safely?
    He's talking about e.g. Dr Mihai Anton. You know, evidence (not that any is needed considering you haven't posted any yourself) that everything you've said is false.
    Paying that class of consultant more wont lead to better results. It will lead to bad and average consultants getting more than they are owed due to no competition at all.
    How can there be no competition in Ireland, when you already stated competition outside Ireland draws in the best - including from Ireland?

    Absolute nonsense.


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    #40
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    As long as the only other counties you compare to are English speaking, so that'd be about four of them.

    You could only think of 4 other English speaking countries? I mean in terms of health systems, there is another one on this island and 2 in Great Britain.


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    #41
    Tragedy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,057 ✭✭✭Tragedy


    USA
    Canada
    Australia
    New Zealand
    Scotland
    Wales
    England

    A not inconsiderable 450,000,000 people.

    Also, a good few Irish doctors working in the Emirates and Qatar. Those are rock star salaries.


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    #42
    drzhivago
    Registered Users Posts: 926 ✭✭✭drzhivago


    nice_guy80 wrote: »
    I'm saying doctors and the law profession should have to publish their fees publicly and let the consumer decide where the best service is.

    Plus, there should not be such tight restrictions about GPs and law firms here. The state should be setting the competencies for doctors and lawyers, not the likes of the IMO, Law Society and the Bar.

    Think you are mixing things up here

    IMO does not set competencies it is a medical union and negotiates pay

    Medical council sets competencies which is different to Law society and bar which set their own competencies and also regulate them


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    #43
    drzhivago
    Registered Users Posts: 926 ✭✭✭drzhivago


    nice_guy80 wrote: »
    Figures. Prove that doctors are underpaid

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/health/top-earning-gp-grossed-nearly-800k-in-a-year-30063377.html

    I think average earnings are around €120,000 for a private practice

    Read the article 8 doctors, inner city (probably little or no private) , admin costs, nursing costs so take the 800 k and now what do you get if it was just for the docs alone then 100K each - they also do 11 outreach clinics for the homeless most of whom don't have medical cards because they don't have an address and also unlikely to be paying for their care so using this article and this doc to support your point that docs are overpaid is quite a poor one


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    #44
    drzhivago
    Registered Users Posts: 926 ✭✭✭drzhivago


    Gongoozler wrote: »
    Jesus what's got your back up?

    No I didn't make anything up. If you're a doctor you should be aware of the requirements for a doctor to have insurance.

    No requirement to have insurance, only requirement is to be a member of an organisation which offers indemnity but not same as insurance as they may refuse to cover costs for an event leaving it to the docs


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    #45
    drzhivago
    Registered Users Posts: 926 ✭✭✭drzhivago


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Maybe if we paid consultants a non-rock star wage we could afford more of them and sort out our health system?
    "It's about conditions, not salaries" right?

    so since 2011 salary has halved, they haven't doubled the numbers of jobs or even doubled the numbers of new jobs and they can't fill the vacancies that exist even by advertising in Eastern Europe


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    #46
    Kristopherus
    Registered Users Posts: 11,907 ✭✭✭✭Kristopherus


    drzhivago wrote: »
    Read the article 8 doctors, inner city (probably little or no private) , admin costs, nursing costs so take the 800 k and now what do you get if it was just for the docs alone then 100K each - they also do 11 outreach clinics for the homeless most of whom don't have medical cards because they don't have an address and also unlikely to be paying for their care so using this article and this doc to support your point that docs are overpaid is quite a poor one

    Are not the admin & nursing costs not subsidised by the HSE through the PCRS?


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    #47
    drzhivago
    Registered Users Posts: 926 ✭✭✭drzhivago


    Kristopherus wrote: »
    Are not the admin & nursing costs not subsidised by the HSE through the PCRS?

    Subsidised yes - paid in full NO

    So to retain your nurse there is also a cost to you/practice

    Similar for admin, doesn't cover the full cost on the basis that in many practices they are businesses where private patients also coming in and GPs should be paying for that portion of time and expense themselves

    The particular practice referenced in that article is unlikely to have many or even any private patients thus they will have to pay the additional out of practice income i.e. from what they would have paid the docs


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    #48
    Gongoozler
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,263 ✭✭✭Gongoozler


    drzhivago wrote: »
    No requirement to have insurance, only requirement is to be a member of an organisation which offers indemnity but not same as insurance as they may refuse to cover costs for an event leaving it to the docs

    Section 56 of the guide to professional conduct says otherwise...


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