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Shale Gas - Mod note post#117

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Comments

  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,140 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF


    nedzer2011 wrote: »
    I'm sorry but this is absolute tripe. The constituents were initially kept secret but were revealed following pressure from the USEPA. See this document for further details.

    You throw around all these statements without any sources or founding whatsoever. People perfectly entitled to debate but unless you can back up these claims of 'soaring' cancer rates, 'devestated' wildlife etc. it's better stay quiet for now.

    http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Global_Warming_Policy_Foundation


  • Registered Users Posts: 80 ✭✭nedzer2011


    BryanF wrote: »

    Which part of this site are you referring to?

    Had a quick scan through some of the links, the one point that was made which I would completely agree with is to place restrictions on drilling near surface watercourses, but I suppose again this becomes a question of any possible regulation processes.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,104 ✭✭✭Oldtree


    Would you considder a regionally important karsified aquifer, with a classification of extreme, along the same lines as a watercourse? ;)


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,140 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF


    The link I posted was referring to the origins, scientific prowess, funding sources and mainly the agenda of the GWPF report which you previously posted.
    From the begin of this shale gas thread it is clear there is a lack of peer reviewed scientific information being introduced that can actually outline the pros and cons of shale gas, from an environmental perspective that is.

    I myself have been guilty of bias in early posts, and as you rightly said
    nedzer2011 wrote: »
    You throw around all these statements without any sources or founding whatsoever. People perfectly entitled to debate but unless you can back up these claims....
    well, clearly there are people who will benefit from shale gas exploration and i'm suggesting the GWPF report you posted is one such biased group.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,104 ✭✭✭Oldtree


    I love a good link :p


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  • Registered Users Posts: 80 ✭✭nedzer2011


    Oldtree wrote: »
    Would you considder a regionally important karsified aquifer, with a classification of extreme, along the same lines as a watercourse? ;)

    Fair enough... !! Do some of the proposed drilling locations in Ireland lie above such an aquifer? (Funnily enough I dont have aquifer vulnerability or geological maps to hand:D)

    But would this be any different to some form of heavy industry (say a scrap metal processing plant) moving into such an area? Given the aquifer vulnerability, a rigorous surface water management plan would have to be in place for planning purposes. Why would a SG drilling operation be any different? (Note that I'm referring to surface water issues only..)

    Use of harmful chemicals would be used in higher quantities by our factory and for a much longer period of time. I don't know whether such a situation exists but I've a feeling that public perceptions/reaction would be very different....?


  • Registered Users Posts: 80 ✭✭nedzer2011


    BryanF wrote: »
    The link I posted was referring to the origins, scientific prowess, funding sources and mainly the agenda of the GWPF report which you previously posted.
    From the begin of this shale gas thread it is clear there is a lack of peer reviewed scientific information being introduced that can actually outline the pros and cons of shale gas, from an environmental perspective that is.

    I myself have been guilty of bias in early posts, and as you rightly said
    well, clearly there are people who will benefit from shale gas exploration and i'm suggesting the GWPF report you posted is one such biased group.


    Oh right, no thats pretty true but I'm more referring to some of the information presented in the report itself. The author seems ok but I'm sure could have been influenced. There is also plenty of reference to USEPA reporting which has to be pretty solid!?

    I suppose what we all have to realise is that it is tough to find good sources about the issue. Anyone that has been bothered to write at length about SG at this stage is most likely to have had outside influence....


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,140 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF


    please note the following is selective sections of a paper by a political science student:
    Environmental concerns and emerging issues

    A controversy has arisen as the use of hydraulic fracturing has increased and expanded with its application to horizontal drilling. The major issues that are discussed include groundwater (aquifer) contamination by fracking chemicals, accidental chemical spills, waste disposal, air quality, the land footprint of drilling activities, pipeline placement and safety, and the amount of water used.
    fracking fluids not only contain propping agents to hold the fractures open but often other substances. While the fracking fluid is typically more than 99% water, other components are used. These substances are generally considered proprietary so drilling companies are not required to disclose their content (although a few states do now require or are moving to require such disclosure). It is thought that the substances added to the fracking fluids may include potassium chloride, guar gum, ethylene glycol, sodium carbonate, potassium carbonate, sodium chloride, borate salts, citric acid, glutaraldehyde, acid, petroleum distillate, and isopropanol. These substances are added for a variety of reasons. For instance, acid helps dissolve minerals and assists with the fracturing process by creating fissures in the rock. Borate salts maintain fluid viscosity. Other substances are added to prevent pipe corrosion, minimize friction between the pipe and fluid, and to prevent scale deposits on the pipe. Proponents of hydraulic fracturing practices largely argue that for the most part these substances are non-toxic (Vaughan and Pursell, 2010).
    Critics allege that some of the substances used are hazardous materials and carcinogens, toxic enough to contaminate groundwater resources and create toxic air emissions. These include diesel fuel, kerosene, benzene, toluene, xylene, and formaldehyde. There are a number of cases in the U.S. where local communities claim that their air or drinking water has been polluted by hydraulic fracturing fluids, methane, or petroleum by-products such as benzene. Incidents have been reported in several states.
    For instance, in June of 2010, Houston-based EOG Resources had a blowout at a Clearfield County, Pennsylvania well that discharged 35,000 gallons of HF fluid into a state forest. As a result, the state ordered the company to suspend all gas drilling activities until an investigation of the causes of the explosion could be undertaken. In that same month, in Dish, Texas blood and urine samples taken from residents living near Barnett prevterm.gifShale gasnextterm.gif wells revealed that 65% of households tested had toluene in their systems and another 53% had detectable levels of xylene. These chemicals have all been identified in Dish air samples on multiple occasions. EPA and the Texas Commission on Environmental Quality (TCEQ) are looking into air emissions from Barnett shale gas operations (Fowler, 2010).
    In Pavillion, Wyoming residents were informed by EPA in 2009 that many drinking water wells were contaminated by toxics often used in hydraulic fracturing fluids. For nearly a decade Pavillion residents had complained about miscarriages, rare cancers, and central nervous system disorders including seizures. EPA confirmed the presence of 2-butoxyethanol, a known constituent in HF fluid, in three wells (Earthworks, 2009).
    Surface handling of materials have been a problem in a number of cases. In Caddo Parish, Louisiana in 2009 seventeen cattle were found dead near a drilling site. Louisiana regulators concluded that HF fluid leaked from the well pad and ran into an adjacent pasture. The private companies involved were fined $22,000. At Dunkard Creek, Pennsylvania in 2009 a 43 mile fish kill resulted from an overgrowth of algae that live in salty water. Pennsylvania officials say they have not ruled out that the cause was brine wastewater associated with HF drilling discharge to surface water bodies. In 2008 in southwest Pennsylvania, parts of the lower Monogahala River were found by the Army Corps of Engineers to have too high a salt content. The Army Corps cited drilling in the Marcellus shale as a possible cause. Pennsylvania regulators drew on the Corps findings to call for more stringent regulation. In Hopewell Township, Pennsylvania in 2009, a spill of fracking fluid into a water body resulted in a fish and amphibian kill. Pennsylvania regulators fined the responsible company $141,175. In 2009, Dimock, Pennsylvania experienced three spills of fracking fluid totaling more than 8000 gallons (30,284 l). The spills entered a nearby creek and the operators were fined $56,650 by Pennsylvania regulators (Vaughan and Pursell, 2010).
    Health threats and fear of environmental contamination are critical issues in the debate over the new hydraulic fracturing techniques but land and water use issues also abound. The surface land use for conventional prevterm.gifgasnextterm.gif and oil wells was typically much smaller than the land space needed for a hydraulic fracturing operation. Older drilling techniques used less equipment, less water, and produced less waste. Use of the large quantities of water necessary, especially in arid locations, may be an issue for local water providers. For instance, to break the Haynesville shale of Louisiana, companies had to drill down more than 2 miles (3.2 km). The scale of these new HF drilling operations are huge in terms of the amount of rock that needs to be drilled, the trucks and other needed equipment, the miles of pipe necessary, the volume of casing cement needed, the amounts of water and energy used, and the resultant amount of wastewater produced. The intensity of shale gas production is magnified by the fact that it is a 24 h, 7 day a week operation. While many prevterm.gifshale gasnextterm.gif plays are relatively rural, many are not. This poses a new wrinkle in prevterm.gifgasnextterm.gif production. Many of the new shale gas discoveries are in highly populated regions, making the protection of the water supply and the drilling intensity a high-profile and critical issue (Vaughan and Pursell, 2010)....

    Finally, another consideration is the pipeline infrastructure used to gather the gas and then to move the gas from its collection point, through refining, to end-use locations. The intricate transport network for natural prevterm.gifgasnextterm.gif consists of gathering systems, processing plants, pipelines, and storage fields. Gathering systems are made up of small-diameter, low-pressure pipelines that move natural gas from the well to either a processing plant or to an interconnection with a larger main pipeline. Processing plants are necessary if the gas contains impurities that need to be collected before the gas can enter an interconnection to a main pipeline. The main pipeline system consists of wide-diameter, high-pressure lines for intra- and inter-state transport. The U.S. has more than 300,000 miles (about 483,000 km) of main pipeline. Compressor (pumping) stations are required along the routes to keep the gas flowing. In the U.S. these lines and stations are operated by over 200 private companies. Since prevterm.gifgasnextterm.gif use is seasonal, with greater use for home heating in the winter, underground storage facilities are used to store excess gas produced until it is needed. The U.S. has about 400 of these storage facilities (which consist largely of depleted oil, gas or aquifer reservoirs or salt caverns) that are operated by over 100 private companies. Finally, there are more than 1300 local distribution companies that take the gas from the main pipelines and move it into hundreds of thousands of miles of small-diameter, low-pressure service lines that deliver to local customers (Energy Information Administration, 2010b).
    Erection of new pipelines to accommodate the newly produced natural prevterm.gifgas from shale gas plays can be an issue especially in heavily populated areas. For instance, in the Barnett shale of Texas many high-pressure prevterm.gifgasnextterm.gif lines are being built near homes. More than 14,000 wells have been drilled in the Barnett shale (as of 2010) and about 1200 of them are in the city of Fort Worth. By the time the Barnett shale gas play is fully established there will be about 6000 wells in the city of Fort Worth. Fort Worth is rapidly becoming the first urban gas field in the country. These pipelines provoke fear and controversy. In 2009, an older pipeline blew up in a suburb of Amarillo, Texas with the force of a magnitude 4 earthquake. It sent a column of flames hundreds of feet (more than 60 m) into the air and burned at temperatures in excess of 7000 degrees Fahrenheit (3871 °C). Pipelines are now being built within feet of residential housing, causing considerable concern (Wilder, 2010)........

    conclusion
    hydraulic fracturing and horizontal drilling of shale gas plays is fraught with contention. The strife, though, goes in two directions. Pro-drilling states, like Texas, find themselves in conflict with the federal government while anti-drilling forces (individuals or states) find themselves in conflict with drillers and advocates of drilling. This contention will not be resolved any time soon. Both the pro-drilling and anti-drilling groups will continue to use the courts and the political or administrative powers at their disposal to win their goals.
    Baring a smoking gun that undisputedly ties HF techniques to drinking water contamination, hydraulic fracturing and horizontal drilling of shale gas plays will likely not be stopped. There is too much resource to be had, too much need to satisfy, and too much money to be made. The controversy will probably drive drillers toward discovery and use of non-toxic alternatives for fracking chemicals whenever possible. Fear of liability will impel this shift probably as much as the desire to avoid costly and time consuming conflict with opposition parties. Communities near shale gas plays will continue to be transformed by the drilling activities. Rural pastoral land will be littered with drilling rigs, pipeline will be laid, and 24-7 industrial operations will continue until the play is fully exploited. Urban populations that find themselves in the middle of shale gas plays will likewise see their communities transformed to accommodate the industry. The water resources the drillers need will be diverted from other uses to permit shale gas recovery.
    The increasing demand from some states for federal oversight seems likely to produce some results. EPA will issue its report on hydraulic fracturing in 2012 and will likely continue to step in when local environmental issues cross the threshold of imminent danger. New York in particular seems poised to take action to slow the use of hydraulic fracturing out of fear for their drinking water. But whether the current horizontal drilling moratorium will be renewed is unclear. Even if the anti-drilling factions succeed in some locations, they will not in others.
    Drilling will continue in Texas. Since Texas is such a large part of the future of the industry, it seems pretty clear that the industry will carry on. To what extent the federal government will involve itself in efforts to control the untoward environmental impacts of hydraulic fracturing is questionable.The fact that the Obama administration is engaged in development of international partnerships suggests that the U.S. will continue to vigorously pursue production of shale gas reserves at home and worldwide.
    Dianne Rahm n. (2011) Department of Political Science, Texas State University, 601 University Drive, San Marcos, TX 78666, USA. download from the www accessed at http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S03014215110018931


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,104 ✭✭✭Oldtree


    They do lie above aquifers which is why I brought it up. See the following links

    Aquifer and other GSI mapping available online:
    http://www.gsi.ie/Mapping.htm
    see public data viewer.

    Also the ord survey ariel photos Orthophotography from 1995, 2000 and 2005 here are good:
    http://shop.osi.ie/shop/

    Also NPW maps and data here:
    http://www.npws.ie/


  • Registered Users Posts: 80 ✭✭nedzer2011


    Christ Bryan F, Thats some great linking and more along the lines of what is needed to convince me.

    I'll have to do some serious research if I'm going to debate further. Talk to you in a week....;)


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 205 ✭✭frackingishell


    Macha wrote: »
    All: please do not tell other posters to "stay quiet".

    frackingishell: if you're going to make some spectacular claims, be prepared to back them up.

    I backed them up- all he has to do is watch the link provided. Here's more info for anyone who wants scientific papers.

    http://nofrackingireland.wordpress.com/


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    I backed them up- all he has to do is watch the link provided. Here's more info for anyone who wants scientific papers.

    http://nofrackingireland.wordpress.com/

    Providing a link is not the same as providing evidence. If you are going to link to another resource, be it a video or document, please explain the evidence within the resource and use it to support the argument you are making.

    This goes for everyone - please give opinion/context etc for links, not just a link. It promotes a better debate and understanding of everyone's position. Thank you!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 205 ✭✭frackingishell


    Macha wrote: »
    Providing a link is not the same as providing evidence. If you are going to link to another resource, be it a video or document, please explain the evidence within the resource and use it to support the argument you are making.

    This goes for everyone - please give opinion/context etc for links, not just a link. It promotes a better debate and understanding of everyone's position. Thank you!

    Macha, i really don't get the issue- all i'd be doing is copying and pasting anyway-(unless you want me to rewrite it in my own words?). i don't think you want me copying and pasting all over this forum do you? Maybe im mistaken, if you do want that (big long posts, copying and pasting research papers etc.) let me know. I genuinely felt a link was more concise and less cluttering of your page.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    Please PM me if you have a problem with moderation - ironically, this is cluttering up the thread!


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,104 ✭✭✭Oldtree


    Over the past six months, The New York Times reviewed thousands of pages of documents related to shale gas, including hundreds of industry e-mails, internal agency documents and reports by analysts and have just published them. See here for a start:

    http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/us/natural-gas-drilling-down-documents-4.html

    Dosn't look good for shale gas from the inside either.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,130 ✭✭✭tuppence


    We have what feels like the P.R. machine in full action here in Leitrim with an interview in the local paper with one of the Chief executives. He is hitting the buttons, the jobs button and the we can be "self sufficient' button.
    Leitrim will be the epicentre of exploration (according to Moorman he likes what he sees there, and the best gas is in Leitrim) with potentially hundreds of wells been built with no reference to how this will impact on the visual beauty of the county, pollution, huge volumes of traffic and related safety issue etc. He also doesnt anticipate any problems with the EPA and getting a license will be "straightforward". He is an disarmingly confident guy, and sells it as though it is a done deal.
    http://www.leitrimobserver.ie:80/news/hundreds_of_gas_wells_to_be_constructed_on_lough_allen_basin_1_2838663


    He is obviously looking for investors and probably hoping that they dont read the likes of the New York Times article that you cited Oldtree.

    In reference to the charges laid against Fracking that it caused environmental and health damage he stated this is due to poor workmanship and malpractice. He must be also hoping that investors dont do any homework. He neglects to mention that the company for which he previously worked as cited on his C.V on the company website, South-Western Energy is the subject of lawsuits in America for damage caused by Fracking. :(
    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/story/2011/05/24/nb-southwestern-lawsuit-hydro-fracking-551.html


  • Registered Users Posts: 342 ✭✭garth-marenghi


    It quite shocking that Moorman can throw around figures like hundreds of wells in County Leitrim alone as if these will have no impact on the local environment. The article ovrall was total PR spin facilitated by the Leitrim Observer who did nothing to challenge his views. As outlined above his track record is in the public domain and neither he or the paper mentioned his association with South-Western Energy and their ongoing lawsuits by scores of people who claim to have suffered due to fracking.

    Like others have said before Moorman claims the damage caused was due to malpractice/shoddy workmanship etc. So is it this poor workmanship that he oversaw at South Western then?

    His confidence with regards to the Licensing process verges on the disrespectful. With so many doubts floating around about Fracking and the fact that it has been so contentious in America, Australia, and banned in France for example its quite disconcerting that he thinks getting a license will be straightforward. Surely it should be anything but.

    In the same article in the Leitrim Observer Moorman also stated that they would be using "fancy equipment" during the process. Thats me convinced then:rolleyes:.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 205 ✭✭frackingishell


    "fancy equipment?" Christ on a bike, this is entering the realm of the bizarre.

    Has the Leitrim observer shown it's status as nothing better than toilet paper, and it has also shown it's contempt for the Irish people, and how stupid it thinks that the Leitrim& Irish people are by publishing such a one sided article?

    This scumbag, along with the possible gombeens at the Leitrim observer, REALLY do think that people are stupid as pigsh*t in Leitrim. UNLESS...THe LO is trying to make people go against fracking even more- in which case- Bravo Leitrim observer, very nicely played indeed.

    This Moorman worm obviously thinks the Leitrim people have NO OTHER source of information, and that the interweb hasn't reached Drumshambo.

    The confidence of that scumbag will come back to haunt him too. He should be thrown out of the country for the contempt he is displaying for the regulatory system with his nonchalance.

    There will be no Fracking in this country.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    Less of the swearing and name calling please.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,130 ✭✭✭tuppence


    This is the kind of propaganda that these companies are engaged in, in America. :(
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/blog/2011/jul/14/gas-fracking-children-colouring-book?INTCMP=SRCH


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,104 ✭✭✭Oldtree




  • Closed Accounts Posts: 205 ✭✭frackingishell


    anyone know what happened to the what the frack discussion forum?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 205 ✭✭frackingishell


    Hi folks, doing a bit of research on this lately, and has anyone wondered why the Fracking issue has stalled and seems to be idling? Well, from what i can gather the price of GAS has to be over 5 dollars per unit to make Fracking profitable, which it isn't now. Currently The August natural gas contract was unchanged at $4.55/MMbtu on NYMEX.

    This is why these things are just ticking over at the moment. It is NOT because the planning process etc. is being adhered to, so don't think it is. It is unfortunately a fact that economic factors are going to define how hard we'll all have to work to fight this poison.

    Currently in the M&A (mergers and acquisitions) market, a possible bad omen is that BHP Billiton, (the Australian mining giant and world's seventh largest company) is still persisting with it's diversification strategy into Shale Gas. They are trying to buy PetroHawk, which has in or around 25% of the interest in the US Fracking market- if my figures are correct. Despite the fact that their analysts and shareholders don't want to invest in it, as it won't be profitable and will be at best a break-even strategy (unfortunately it's nothing to do with the fact that fracking simply f*cks over the environment...). So for us here in Ireland i see this merger as being a big indicator as to what industry sees as the long term future for Fracking. It also points out to me that we all need to organise better, and meet this problem now, and attempt to nip it in the bud by getting legislation introduced BEFORE the price is above the profitable level. I can only imagine how much harder this struggle will be when our wonderful politicians have big green readies in their eyes,and private swiss bank accounts, and the IMF pressuring them to destroy much of this nation even more like they've destroyed so many before.

    Right now we are only being reactionary- turning up in Cavan when they are having a meeting. But we need get professional with our sh**, and start making the first moves. We need to get out of our submissive Irish mindsets, and meet up, and formulate a plan to take the initiative here. Let me summarise- Price right now being low means it might be easier for us to win this thing, provided we attack early. I don't know where to start with this, but we need to meet soon.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 905 ✭✭✭easychair


    But we need get professional with our sh**, and start making the first moves. We need to get out of our submissive Irish mindsets, and meet up, and formulate a plan to take the initiative here. Let me summarise- Price right now being low means it might be easier for us to win this thing, provided we attack early. I don't know where to start with this, but we need to meet soon.

    professional with our "sh**"?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 205 ✭✭frackingishell


    easychair wrote: »
    professional with our "sh**"?

    Ah well who have we here...., if it isn't easychair, the industry propagandist that started this thread in a pathetic attempt to make Fracking seem legitimate....BAHAHAHA, major fail on that count.

    For what it's worth, i want to professionalise our ship. Whatever did you think it meant?????!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 905 ✭✭✭easychair


    Ah well who have we here...., if it isn't easychair, the industry propagandist that started this thread in a pathetic attempt to make Fracking seem legitimate....BAHAHAHA, major fail on that count.

    For what it's worth, i want to professionalise our ship. Whatever did you think it meant?????!

    I'm afraid that, if the best argument you have is to hurl abuse at individuals, then that says more about you than you might like to reveal to everyone else.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 205 ✭✭frackingishell


    easychair wrote: »
    I'm afraid that, if the best argument you have is to hurl abuse at individuals, then that says more about you than you might like to reveal to everyone else.

    I didn't hurl abuse at anyone, i called it as i seen it. I'm not arguing with you, that would be pointless, it's obvious you have a vested interest.

    What have i revealed about myself exactly? That i'm opposed to fracking? That doesnt bother me.

    Good day to you.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Ah well who have we here...., if it isn't easychair, the industry propagandist...
    Please refrain from referring to other posters as "propagandists".


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 205 ✭✭frackingishell


    I meant to say they had an 'unexplainedly one sided view'.

    Won't happen again, apologies.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,104 ✭✭✭Oldtree


    Frackingishell have you seen this about a protest being organised in the UK?

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/jul/22/activists-camp-frack-shale-gas


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