Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

Podge_irl · 06-11-2012 1:10pm

Fishooks12 wrote: »

I did actually. Gilroy was fantastic but Zebo has been in better form all season and I don't for a second buy into this theory that he was streets ahead of Zebo last season.

He wasn't street ahead, but he was definitely ahead. I would have said by a solid margin - not that it did him any good wrt Irish selection. Been very impressed with Zebo this season though and he's rightfully ahead.

The rumoured team is good - very close to the one I would pick. I'm worried about Zebo at 15 but there are no obvious choices for the jersey. There is the perennial Murray problem, but I'd given up expecting any different there (and he has been ok this season bar his horror show in France). I have a feeling Henry lucked out due to Ferris' injury and POM would have started at 7 if he was fit - but there are plenty of real grievances to have with Kidney so I'm not gonna make up hypothetical ones!

Hopefully Jackson is on bench but I highly doubt it. If Kilcoyne truly is on the bench ahead of Court then I'm not necessarily dismayed - Kilcoyne is a decent prospect and good in the loose - but I'd be worried if Healy went off early and its just another in a long line of Munster players breaking into the national team easier then anyone else.

bilston · 06-11-2012 1:10pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I saw the Ulster game on Friday. I also saw all the (televised) Munster games this season. As well as Gilroy last season. Zebo is starting regularly and playing well this season, he has a big impact in almost every game. On the other hand, last season GIlroy had a good few quiet games and this season he's not playing enough rugby. If you're picking on form then Zebo has to be ahead of him.

I wonder if Gilroy might fancy a year or two away from Ulster to try and secure a place in the Ireland team. He could go to England and rip that league apart IMO, he'd be our best export to that league since Geordan Murphy IMO, however he'd run the risk of being ignored by the Irish management. There is also the argument that he's better off staying at Ulster because if he does take Trimble or Bowe's place then he'd have to have a very good chance of breaking into the Ireland team or at least the 23 man squad.

While this isn't the Ulster thread having seen Payne play 13 so well the other night and seeing Gilroy and Trimble in such good form I do wonder how the Ulster backline will look at the end of the season.

Fishooks12 · 06-11-2012 1:12pm

bilston wrote: »

I wonder if Gilroy might fancy a year or two away from Ulster to try and secure a place in the Ireland team. He could go to England and rip that league apart IMO, he'd be our best export to that league since Geordan Murphy IMO, however he'd run the risk of being ignored by the Irish management. There is also the argument that he's better off staying at Ulster because if he does take Trimble or Bowe's place then he'd have to have a very good chance of breaking into the Ireland team or at least the 23 man squad.

While this isn't the Ulster thread having seen Payne play 13 so well the other night and seeing Gilroy and Trimble in such good form I do wonder how the Ulster backline will look at the end of the season.

Would be disastrous move considering he's not far from ousting Trimble as is

jm08 · 06-11-2012 1:18pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It took Cian Healy 2 years of rugby at Leinster to get picked for Ireland. He wasn't even picked on the Irish summer tour to America after he started in the Heineken Cup final. I think Bryan Young was picked ahead of him! It's a bit ridiculous.

I'm happy for Kilcoyne to be involved though. If Feek is signing off on his scrummaging then I really don't have a major issue with him playing if it turns out he is.

Ireland played Canada on Sat. 23rd May - the same day that Leinster played Leicester in the Heineken Cup Final. Not even Healy could have managed two games in the one day!

Healy started the final of the Churchill Cup (along with Sexton & a few other Leinster players who couldn't make the US & Canada Tour).

Fishooks12 · 06-11-2012 1:18pm

Is there anything to be said for McFadden at 11 instead of Trimble?

emmet02 · 06-11-2012 1:19pm

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Is there anything to be said for McFadden at 11 instead of Trimble?

nope

Mr.Applepie · 06-11-2012 1:19pm

bilston wrote: »

I wonder if Gilroy might fancy a year or two away from Ulster to try and secure a place in the Ireland team. He could go to England and rip that league apart IMO, he'd be our best export to that league since Geordan Murphy IMO, however he'd run the risk of being ignored by the Irish management. There is also the argument that he's better off staying at Ulster because if he does take Trimble or Bowe's place then he'd have to have a very good chance of breaking into the Ireland team or at least the 23 man squad.

Surely Munster would be the best place for him to be noticed?

If the rumoured team is selected, it's a decent team considering who we are playing & the injuries. I'll await confirmation from GT on thursday morning though.

In reality it doesn't matter who we play if our tactics are going to be the same as last season - pick & go until there is no space left then hoof the ball away.

Tox56 · 06-11-2012 1:19pm

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Is there anything to be said for McFadden at 11 instead of Trimble?

Not really, he's the ultimate utility back for the bench, and Trimble has been in fine form

irishbucsfan · 06-11-2012 1:19pm

jm08 wrote: »

Ireland played Canada on Sat. 23rd May - the same day that Leinster played Leicester in the Heineken Cup Final. Not even Healy could have managed two games in the one day!

Healy started the final of the Churchill Cup (along with Sexton & a few other Leinster players who couldn't make the US & Canada Tour).

Fair point.

He was still ignored previous to that when he shouldn't have been.

Fishooks12 · 06-11-2012 1:21pm

Mr.Applepie wrote: »

Surely Munster would be the best place for him to be noticed?

If the rumoured team is selected, it's a decent team considering who we are playing & the injuries. I'll await confirmation from GT on thursday morning though.

In reality it doesn't matter who we play if our tactics are going to be the same as last season - pick & go until there is no space left then hoof the ball away.

Munster have enough wingers

Fishooks12 · 06-11-2012 1:23pm

Tox56 wrote: »

Not really, he's the ultimate utility back for the bench, and Trimble has been in fine form

McFadden has been in very good form too. And while I've been speculative of him at International level I don't think Trimble has really shown much since his pre WC form either.

Although it's probably the fair call benching McFadden

totallegend · 06-11-2012 1:26pm

Fishooks12 wrote: »

I did actually. Gilroy was fantastic but Zebo has been in better form all season and I don't for a second buy into this theory that he was streets ahead of Zebo last season.

I don't think Gilroy has regressed. I just think Zebo's improved defense, positioning and leadership have now made him a better player.

Plus I don't think Gilroy can have many qualms about not being picked over Zebo when he can't oust Trimble from an Ulster starting shirt. Although I don think he offers more than Trimble

Plenty of people forget that at the start of the year, Zebo was far from guaranteed his place at Munster. And I think his form has been a big reason why we haven't seen Earls on the wing this year

OK, fair enough, we'll have to agree to disagree on the Zebo vs Gilroy issue so.

On your other points:
Trimble is criminally under-rated on boards IMO, I don't think it's any reflection on Gilroy that he's benching behind him. Again, matter of opinion.

Earls has only started 3 games for Munster this season, btw, I'm not sure we can really say for sure that Zebo is a nailed-on starter for Munster just yet. If they get everyone fit and available, then we'll see how it goes.

Fishooks12 · 06-11-2012 1:29pm

totallegend wrote: »

OK, fair enough, we'll have to agree to disagree on the Zebo vs Gilroy issue so.

On your other points:
Trimble is criminally under-rated on boards IMO, I don't think it's any reflection on Gilroy that he's benching behind him. Again, matter of opinion.

Earls has only started 3 games for Munster this season, btw, I'm not sure we can really say for sure that Zebo is a nailed-on starter for Munster just yet. If they get everyone fit and available, then we'll see how it goes.

Not a hope he'll be dropped. And I'll go as far to say that he's our most important back right now. I'd have a tough call to make if it were between him and Dougie even!

jm08 · 06-11-2012 1:33pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Fair point.

He was still ignored previous to that when he shouldn't have been.

Not really. He was selected to play against the England Saxons (game called off) and played against Scotland A alongside Cronin & Ross during the 2009 6Ns (GS year). That was Kidney's first season in charge.

irishbucsfan · 06-11-2012 1:35pm

totallegend wrote: »

OK, fair enough, we'll have to agree to disagree on the Zebo vs Gilroy issue so.

On your other points:
Trimble is criminally under-rated on boards IMO, I don't think it's any reflection on Gilroy that he's benching behind him. Again, matter of opinion.

Earls has only started 3 games for Munster this season, btw, I'm not sure we can really say for sure that Zebo is a nailed-on starter for Munster just yet. If they get everyone fit and available, then we'll see how it goes.

Agreed. Zebo could well lose his place.

Although Penney has shown he's interested in Earls as a 13 and Earls doesn't want to play on the wing.

totallegend · 06-11-2012 1:40pm

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Not a hope he'll be dropped. And I'll go as far to say that he's our most important back right now. I'd have a tough call to make if it were between him and Dougie even!

I don't see how it will work otherwise, unless Laulala can make the move to 12 and Downey gets the bullet OR Zebo turns out to be a revelation at full-back and Jones/Hurley lose out. If I were a Munster fan, I'd be hoping for the latter. Howlett is still Munster's best back by some distance (and captain...)

Fishooks12 · 06-11-2012 1:41pm

totallegend wrote: »

I don't see how it will work otherwise, unless Laulala can make the move to 12 and Downey gets the bullet OR Zebo turns out to be a revelation at full-back and Jones/Hurley lose out. If I were a Munster fan, I'd be hoping for the latter. Howlett is still Munster's best back by some distance (and captain...)

This, happened already too

geekington · 06-11-2012 1:54pm

Until Luke O'Dea gets called ahead of him, I think Gilroy will be fine where he is!!!

Banbridgeman2 · 06-11-2012 2:16pm

Trimble is so underrated on these forums! He's in better form than Zebo who posters seem to go crazy for because he's been decent against crap teams (yet notably anonymous against the likes of Leinster and ospreys hmmm)

Fishooks12 · 06-11-2012 2:19pm

Banbridgeman2 wrote: »

Trimble is so underrated on these forums! He's in better form than Zebo who posters seem to go crazy for because he's been decent against crap teams (yet notably anonymous against the likes of Leinster and ospreys hmmm)

ah, I smell an obvious re-reg

Also. You're talking crap. Over the course of the year, Zebo has been in much better form that Trimble

And I think if anyone is underrated here it's Zebo. Trimble is a solid international, no more and no less. I'd have Gilroy ahead of him for Ulster

irishbucsfan · 06-11-2012 2:34pm

I really rate Trimble. If Kearney was fit I'd have Trimble starting against South Africa ahead of Zebo because his defense and kick chasing are top-class. Zebo could well get there though in future, Trimble's just a seasoned pro with a lot of high-level rugby behind him and he's learned to do the little things as well as anyone.

Fireball07 · 06-11-2012 2:38pm

Can't see Zebo being dropped for Munster...he's been in superb form. Downey would be dropped ahead of him, Earls could go to 15, etc. And if people think he was anonymous against Ospreys and Leinster, I suggest they go watch those games again, because he was excellent.

I like Kilcoyne and Henderson being on the bench tbh...like I said, I wouldn't start either of them ahead of Court or Locky but from the bench, they are both the kind of players who can make an impact and the experience will be good for them. Criticising Kidney for that when people have been calling for him to make those kind of decisions for years is a bit unfair.

And if Gilroy isn't ahead of Trimble for Ulster, it's unlikely he'd be ahead of him for Ireland while McFadden is a great sub, because he covers 4 positions.

Cpt_Blackbeard · 06-11-2012 2:48pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Greg Feek is with the Irish setup. I'm sure if Kilcoyne has any major issues he won't make the bench. Let's remember these are still just rumours.

Kidney definitely seems to promote Munster players quicker than others. I don't think there's any doubt in that at all any more. It took Cian Healy 2 years of rugby at Leinster to get picked for Ireland. He wasn't even picked on the Irish summer tour to America after he started in the Heineken Cup final. I think Bryan Young was picked ahead of him! It's a bit ridiculous.

I'm happy for Kilcoyne to be involved though. If Feek is signing off on his scrummaging then I really don't have a major issue with him playing if it turns out he is.

Considering that Ruddock and Bent aside, Henderson has been/looks to be the quickest promotion to the Irish squad under Kidney's reign, I'd question whether Munster lads have it easier due to a perceived bias. After Henderson, you'd probably have Murray followed by Jackson. That's pretty evenly split if you look at the predicted outcome of the AIs.

Cpt_Blackbeard · 06-11-2012 2:50pm

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Is there anything to be said for McFadden at 11 instead of Trimble?

Doubt it. McFadden is a good utility player, but he has been pretty poor at international level.

bamboozle · 06-11-2012 2:54pm

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Considering that Ruddock and Bent aside, Henderson has been/looks to be the quickest promotion to the Irish squad under Kidney's reign, I'd question whether Munster lads have it easier due to a perceived bias. After Henderson, you'd probably have Murray followed by Jackson. That's pretty evenly split if you look at the predicted outcome of the AIs.

i'd question whether some posters can remove their provincial blinkers when considering the national team.

quick promotion to team aside (glaring exceptions being Healy, SOB, Ross) its the rentention of certain players long after their sell by date that frustrates many on here - Hayes, Horan, ROG, DOC, Leamy, Darcy spring to mind.

and dont forget about Zebo above. Not to mention presence of Archer & Hurley in the training squad.

Foxtrol · 06-11-2012 2:58pm

Fireball07 wrote: »

I like Kilcoyne and Henderson being on the bench tbh...like I said, I wouldn't start either of them ahead of Court or Locky but from the bench, they are both the kind of players who can make an impact and the experience will be good for them. Criticising Kidney for that when people have been calling for him to make those kind of decisions for years is a bit unfair.

Kidney has done nothing yet and personally I am extremely sceptical of this rumour . The point on Kilcoyne was that he is yet another fast tracked inexperienced Munster player, who we haven’t seen enough of at provincial level to know how he’ll fare in the scrums if he had to be brought on early in the game (for example a lot of Munster fans were very worried about Du Preez being injured and Kicoyne having to start less than a month ago).

totallegend · 06-11-2012 2:58pm

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Considering that Ruddock and Bent aside, Henderson has been/looks to be the quickest promotion to the Irish squad under Kidney's reign, I'd question whether Munster lads have it easier due to a perceived bias. After Henderson, you'd probably have Murray followed by Jackson. That's pretty evenly split if you look at the predicted outcome of the AIs.

Ruddock got one cap after absolutely every other backrow option available was exhausted and was never selected again. Henderson, like Jackson, has yet to be actually picked.

Zebo, Murray, POM have all been fast-tracked into the side in the last 12 months. Jones would have gone to the RWC on the basis of very little had he not been injured.

While you can argue the case for each individual guy being there on his own merits, it's hard to deny the pattern.

irishbucsfan · 06-11-2012 2:59pm

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Considering that Ruddock and Bent aside, Henderson has been/looks to be the quickest promotion to the Irish squad under Kidney's reign, I'd question whether Munster lads have it easier due to a perceived bias. After Henderson, you'd probably have Murray followed by Jackson. That's pretty evenly split if you look at the predicted outcome of the AIs.

Well you could say Kilcoyne has been as quick as them. O'mahony was brought in pretty quickly as well. That's 4/5 of the quickest promotions!

I suppose just looking at comparisons:

Sean O'Brien ignored in the middle of a European Player of the Year season, O'Mahoney brought up without even a wolfhounds appearance.

Cian Healy ignored when playing brilliantly, Kilcoyne straight into squad and rumoured to be ahead of Court after very few games. Mike Ross was also ignored until the last possible minute despite playing excellently for Leinster.

Conor Murray plays a handful of decent games and goes to the World Cup, Paul Marshall performs for over a season and still hasn't been given a shot. (Although hopefully he'll eventually get one against Argentina).

Craig Gilroy consistently ignored for a couple of seasons, Zebo straight into summer squad.

There's arguments for and against all of those. I'm just saying there is definitely a pattern.

Cpt_Blackbeard · 06-11-2012 3:00pm

bamboozle wrote: »

i'd question whether some posters can remove their provincial blinkers when considering the national team.

quick promotion to team aside (glaring exceptions being Healy, SOB, Ross) its the rentention of certain players long after their sell by date that frustrates many on here - Hayes, Horan, ROG, DOC, Leamy, Darcy spring to mind.

and dont forget about Zebo above. Not to mention presence of Archer & Hurley in the training squad.

So you're saying that Kidney has been slow to drop proven internationals from the squad. If that's the case, Munster lads would always have been the ones to be given extra chances considering that they made up a majority of the squad. Kidney has definitely been slow to drop players and reward form players, but I don't subscribe to the fact that it's just because he is/they are from Munster. It's just how he operates.

goreyguy · 06-11-2012 3:05pm

The age profile for the squad in 2015 is shown below.
21 players are 30 and over and 18 are 29 and younger.

Tom Court (33)
Cian Healy (28)
David Kilcoyne(25)
***********
Rory Best (33)
Richardt Strauss (29)
Sean Cronin (29)
***********
Mike Ross (34)
Michael Bent (29)
Stephen Archer (27)
***********
Donnacha O'Callaghan (36)
Paul O'Connell (35)
Mike McCarthy (32)
Donnacha Ryan (30)
Dan Touhy(30)
**************
John Muldoon(31)
Jamie Heaslip(30)
Stephen Ferris(30)
Chris Henry(30)
Kevin McLaughlin (30)
Sean O'Brien(28)
Peter O'Mahony(26)
Iain Henderson(23)
*************
Eoin Reddan(33)
Paul Marshall(30)
Conor Murray(26)
*************
Ronan O'Gara(38)*
Johnny Sexton(30)
Paddy Jackson(23)
*************
Brian O'Driscoll(36)*
Gordon Darcy(35)*
Tommy Bowe(31)
Andrew Trimble(30)
Rob Kearney(29)
Fergus McFadden(29)
Darren Cave(29)
Keith Earls(27)
Simon Zebo(25)
Craig Gilroy(24)
Luke Marshall(24)

Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

Comments