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News and views on Greystones harbour and marina [SEE MODERATOR WARNING POST 1187]

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Comments

  • #1682
    The Durutti Column
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 274 ✭✭The Durutti Column


    Daddio wrote: »
    What is the current state of the harbour area at the moment? How open is it to the public? I'm from near greystones originally but have been living abroad for the last two years, only occasionally when I'm home do I see the updates on the harbour. Am due a visit back home in the next two weeks and want to prepare my eyes for the monstrosity :P

    You will find pics on this thread: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056050279

    Or just scroll back through this present thread for plenty of pics of the harbour during construction, after being finished, erosion of the North Beach and cliffs, etc.

    Or just google greystones harbour and click images.


  • #1683
    Taltos
    Registered Users Posts: 20,830 ✭✭✭✭Taltos


    Daddio wrote: »
    What is the current state of the harbour area at the moment? How open is it to the public? I'm from near greystones originally but have been living abroad for the last two years, only occasionally when I'm home do I see the updates on the harbour. Am due a visit back home in the next two weeks and want to prepare my eyes for the monstrosity :P

    As a guy in work was telling me - "went out to Bray at the weekend to do the Cliff Walk - found it really pretty but turned around when I hit the construction site".

    :( Not kidding - he didn't know I'm from here we were just talking about what we got up to at the weekend. Talk about being ashamed of where you come from. How many others have just turned straight around to Bray instead of wandering further into the town and helping out the local shops...


  • #1684
    Setun
    Registered Users Posts: 3,805 ✭✭✭Setun


    Taltos wrote: »
    As a guy in work was telling me - "went out to Bray at the weekend to do the Cliff Walk - found it really pretty but turned around when I hit the construction site".

    :( Not kidding - he didn't know I'm from here we were just talking about what we got up to at the weekend. Talk about being ashamed of where you come from. How many others have just turned straight around to Bray instead of wandering further into the town and helping out the local shops...
    Yeah the last time I did the cliff walk (must have been about a year ago now) when I got to the Greystones side I decided to walk along the North Beach, but hadn't noticed that the construction site was still sealed off and made a dead end, so I had to walk about 5 minutes back to get around some fence and onto a diverted pathway. I found the place very barren and unwelcoming, I can see why you your colleague wasn't bothered going the whole way. At least now there's a little bit of greenery judging by pixbyjohn's links, but it makes me sad to think how nice it was when you made the last corner around Bray Head and you could see Greystones stretching out in front of you - you'd know you weren't far from some decent grub (Jokers or a Happy Pear, yum!). You certainly wouldn't want to be turning back anyway!


  • #1685
    Maudi
    Registered Users Posts: 1,516 ✭✭✭Maudi


    Taltos wrote: »
    Daddio wrote: »
    What is the current state of the harbour area at the moment? How open is it to the public? I'm from near greystones originally but have been living abroad for the last two years, only occasionally when I'm home do I see the updates on the harbour. Am due a visit back home in the next two weeks and want to prepare my eyes for the monstrosity :P

    As a guy in work was telling me - "went out to Bray at the weekend to do the Cliff Walk - found it really pretty but turned around when I hit the construction site".

    :( Not kidding - he didn't know I'm from here we were just talking about what we got up to at the weekend. Talk about being ashamed of where you come from. How many others have just turned straight around to Bray instead of wandering further into the town and helping out the local shops...
    soo its not a harbour..its an art gallery...one would think that with the millions upon millions funnelled into the "ahem worlds arse harbour" the artists would have got better than some cheap fencing to hang their work from..


  • #1686
    loyatemu
    Registered Users Posts: 14,727 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    Taltos wrote: »
    How many others have just turned straight around to Bray instead of wandering further into the town and helping out the local shops...

    surely not that many - who walks 5 miles then turns around to walk 5 miles back rather than walk the extra 500 yards to get to the pub and chipper? Certainly any time I walk up that way I see plenty of people arriving from Bray and they all seem to be continuing towards the town.


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  • #1687
    pixbyjohn
    Registered Users Posts: 6,250 ✭✭✭pixbyjohn


    loyatemu wrote: »
    surely not that many - who walks 5 miles then turns around to walk 5 miles back rather than walk the extra 500 yards to get to the pub and chipper? Certainly any time I walk up that way I see plenty of people arriving from Bray and they all seem to be continuing towards the town.

    I agree


  • #1688
    Taltos
    Registered Users Posts: 20,830 ✭✭✭✭Taltos


    loyatemu wrote: »
    surely not that many - who walks 5 miles then turns around to walk 5 miles back rather than walk the extra 500 yards to get to the pub and chipper? Certainly any time I walk up that way I see plenty of people arriving from Bray and they all seem to be continuing towards the town.

    Only takes one - at brekkie with quite a few others. Hearing his experience would bet many of them would not bother except I pointed the obvious out. But again - only takes a few conversations like this where there is not someone who knows the area to paint a bleak picture.

    Either way - can you honestly say that the current walk down now is all that inviting?


  • #1689
    Jimjay
    Registered Users Posts: 800 ✭✭✭Jimjay


    I did the cliff walk from greystones. It was really nice til i got near the end and saw bray. Quickly turned round and walked back. :-)


  • #1690
    Taltos
    Registered Users Posts: 20,830 ✭✭✭✭Taltos


    Jimjay wrote: »
    I did the cliff walk from greystones. It was really nice til i got near the end and saw bray. Quickly turned round and walked back. :-)

    Don't you mean "ran back screaming" to scare off that disturbed guy?


  • #1691
    Fiachra2
    Registered Users Posts: 594 ✭✭✭Fiachra2


    Taltos wrote: »
    Only takes one - at brekkie with quite a few others. Hearing his experience would bet many of them would not bother except I pointed the obvious out. But again - only takes a few conversations like this where there is not someone who knows the area to paint a bleak picture.

    Either way - can you honestly say that the current walk down now is all that inviting?

    My sentiments exactly. It is unlikely that many people actually turn back but that doesnt take away from the fact that the place looks awful and is largely fenced off from the public.

    Most importantly there is absolutely no reason why it should be left like this.


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  • #1692
    pixbyjohn
    Registered Users Posts: 6,250 ✭✭✭pixbyjohn


    7599121242_d1ef7b319b_z.jpg
    Greystones Harbour 18th July 2012 by pixbyjohn, on Flickr


  • #1693
    pixbyjohn
    Registered Users Posts: 6,250 ✭✭✭pixbyjohn


    7709599970_fd3f16467d_z.jpg
    Motorhomes @ The Harbour by pixbyjohn, on Flickr


  • #1694
    treecreeper
    Registered Users Posts: 193 ✭✭treecreeper


    good to see you today John, we have MET!


  • #1695
    pixbyjohn
    Registered Users Posts: 6,250 ✭✭✭pixbyjohn


    7882994528_7babcaa117_z.jpg
    DSC_1319 by pixbyjohn, on Flickr


  • #1696
    Blandpebbles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 710 ✭✭✭Blandpebbles


    Does that photo remind anyone of the old dump field at Darcy's? How far we have come.


  • #1697
    Fiachra2
    Registered Users Posts: 594 ✭✭✭Fiachra2


    Well Saturday is 1 September. Construction on the Medial center begins in september or so we were told.
    Monday morning I'm sure it will all start! John you better be ready with your camera........


  • #1698
    The Durutti Column
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 274 ✭✭The Durutti Column


    Fiachra2 wrote: »
    Well Saturday is 1 September. Construction on the Medial center begins in september or so we were told.
    Monday morning I'm sure it will all start! John you better be ready with your camera........

    If there's a similar delay as between promising to landscape the site and actually doing anything, we'll still be waiting this time next year.

    The landscape promise (which was only to plant some grass): April 2012
    The landscape action (sowing the grass): Still waiting, four months later, as growing season approaches its end


  • #1699
    The Durutti Column
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 274 ✭✭The Durutti Column


    pixbyjohn wrote: »
    7882994528_7babcaa117_z.jpg
    DSC_1319 by pixbyjohn, on Flickr

    This is the area which Sispar promised the Town Council it would landscape and plant grass on, with much trumpeting of this generosity by the usual suspects. So where's the grass, other than the wild stuff? Or were the suspects smoking some?


  • #1700
    Fiachra2
    Registered Users Posts: 594 ✭✭✭Fiachra2


    Taken from the Indo website

    http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/sisk-and-cotters-30m-riviera-yacht-club-sunk-3216930.html

    (Last couple of paragraphs of the article)

    If this is correct it is truly outrageous (and has very serious consequences for Greystones):

    Assertions by local politicians that "we have got a harbour at no cost to the taxpayer" are rather inaccurate. It has now cost the taxpayer €50M.

    The whole principle of a PPP has been abandoned by the state.

    The public has now lost control of the site completely and it has been handed over to private interests to do with it as they will. And whenever they want.



    Meanwhile, in a harbour closer to home, Nama is believed to have written down over €50m of debt attached to the blighted Greystones Harbour Development.

    The write-down is thought to be part of a secretive deal struck to allow building giant Sisk Group to take over the project, which is a public-private partnership in conjunction with Wicklow County Council.

    Originally, Sisk Group and Michael Cotter's Park Developments formed a consortium, Sispar, which was to build the project. Now Sisk is taking "full responsibility" for the development.

    - Roisin Burke


  • #1701
    The Durutti Column
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 274 ✭✭The Durutti Column


    I suspected that NAMA had given away our money rather than forcing Sisk and Park to pay up the loan, which they had contracted to do by guaranteeing the financing issued to Sispar.

    Absolutely outrageous! Far from having traded the harbour for the reclaimed land amounting to more than 20 acres, they have now defaulted on the cost of the harbour, which they borrowed, with NAMA'as agreement!

    So Sisk has now got over 20 acres of prime development land for nothing! And Park, a zombie company, has been let off its obligations.

    And get this. The Sindo article points out that the Villefranche yacht club has been dropped too. So that's two towns blighted by the head honchos at Sisk and Park.

    In Villefranche, we see the same high-flown bullsh1t about restoring the town's amenities as we heard here. Followed by the same failure to deliver. The developers promised to refurbish the entire main boulevard in Villefranche as part of the project — that's now down the tubes.

    Maybe Greystones should twin with Villefranche, as twin victims of Messrs Sisk and Cotter?

    See http://www.classicsailing.eu/about.html before they take down the website.
    Villas One and Two are at either end of the main town boulevard of Villefranche which will be completely refurbished during construction. The centre-piece will be a new municipal statue at the Villa One end by famous French sculptor Francois Lavrat.

    Yes, and we have five clubhouses and "the finest public plaza on the east coast".

    And pie in the sky when we die.


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  • #1702
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,787 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Fiachra2 wrote: »
    Taken from the Indo website

    http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/sisk-and-cotters-30m-riviera-yacht-club-sunk-3216930.html

    (Last couple of paragraphs of the article)

    If this is correct it is truly outrageous (and has very serious consequences for Greystones):

    Assertions by local politicians that "we have got a harbour at no cost to the taxpayer" are rather inaccurate. It has now cost the taxpayer €50M.

    The whole principle of a PPP has been abandoned by the state.

    The public has now lost control of the site completely and it has been handed over to private interests to do with it as they will. And whenever they want.



    Meanwhile, in a harbour closer to home, Nama is believed to have written down over €50m of debt attached to the blighted Greystones Harbour Development.

    The write-down is thought to be part of a secretive deal struck to allow building giant Sisk Group to take over the project, which is a public-private partnership in conjunction with Wicklow County Council.

    Originally, Sisk Group and Michael Cotter's Park Developments formed a consortium, Sispar, which was to build the project. Now Sisk is taking "full responsibility" for the development.

    - Roisin Burke

    Can you explain a bit more what exactly this means. I'm totally confused by it.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #1703
    MyPerfectCousin
    Registered Users Posts: 741 ✭✭✭MyPerfectCousin


    Agreed. I'm confused. From this short paragraph, it seems what has changed is that NAMA wrote off the debt and Sispar has been reduced to Sisk (which we kind of already knew?). I don't see where that means the WCC is no longer part of the PPP?


  • #1704
    The Durutti Column
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 274 ✭✭The Durutti Column


    The curse of Michael Cotter and George Sisk has affected more than just Greystones and Villefranche-sur-mer.

    In 2009, according to Brittany news site LeTelegramme.com, the Stagnol boatyard in Quimper was forced to seek the protection of the Commercial Courts and lay off several workers when Sisk and Cotter's Villefranche Classic Yacht Club postponed plans to restore its seven Dublin Bay 24s, depriving the yard of €1.4 million in fees.

    On 20 November 2009 the boatyard was forced to lay off four of its five full-time employees on account of this decision and to seek court protection (examinership). Boatyard boss Hubert Stagnol blamed the Villefranche decision which had been made known to him earlier that week. The yard later ceased operations, closing finally on 8 June this year.

    So — the curse of Park & Sisk has brought no jobs to Greystones apart from that of the 'invisible' harbourmaster, and has hit Quimper with the loss of several jobs and one of its traditional boatyards.


  • #1705
    Fiachra2
    Registered Users Posts: 594 ✭✭✭Fiachra2


    When Sispar ceased work they owed AIB approx. €50M

    This was then transferred to NAMA who now appear, for no obvious commercial reason, to have simply written off the debt while getting nothing in return.

    Sisk are now the only player as presumably Park are effectively insolvent.

    This is significant because:
    Wicklow County Council have it within their power to solve the current situation but to date refuse to do so. Sispar were three years behind on the contract and have not carried out any meaningful work for two years. They are therfore in default of the contract and WCC could effectivly kick them off the site. Obviously they wouldnt actually do this but they would use the threat of so doing to force Sispar to landscape the site and open all of it to the public and allow moorings in the basin etc. However as I say they so far have refused to do this as they seem to be far more concerned with sispar's interests that of the Public.

    While a debt was owed to NAMA this left open the possibility of the state intervening and essentially representing the public interest. They could force Sispar to carry out the work in return for Nama not calling in the loan. This option is now gone.

    Clearly there are other more academic issues such as why should the loan be written off and the taxpayer effectively carry it when the public is receiving nothing in return?

    Or why if the loan is written off did the State not take the harbour into public ownership and -if need be- find a new PPP partner to finish the development?Sisk are not out of pocket as they dont have to repay the loan so why make a gift of a harbour to them?


  • #1706
    The Durutti Column
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 274 ✭✭The Durutti Column


    Fiachra2 wrote: »
    When Sispar ceased work they owed AIB approx. €50M

    This was then transferred to NAMA who now appear, for no obvious commercial reason, to have simply written off the debt while getting nothing in return.

    Sisk are now the only player as presumably Park are effectively insolvent.

    This is significant because:
    Wicklow County Council have it within their power to solve the current situation but to date refuse to do so. Sispar were three years behind on the contract and have not carried out any meaningful work for two years. They are therfore in default of the contract and WCC could effectivly kick them off the site. Obviously they wouldnt actually do this but they would use the threat of so doing to force Sispar to landscape the site and open all of it to the public and allow moorings in the basin etc. However as I say they so far have refused to do this as they seem to be far more concerned with sispar's interests that of the Public.

    While a debt was owed to NAMA this left open the possibility of the state intervening and essentially representing the public interest. They could force Sispar to carry out the work in return for Nama not calling in the loan. This option is now gone.

    Clearly there are other more academic issues such as why should the loan be written off and the taxpayer effectively carry it when the public is receiving nothing in return?

    Or why if the loan is written off did the State not take the harbour into public ownership and -if need be- find a new PPP partner to finish the development?Sisk are not out of pocket as they dont have to repay the loan so why make a gift of a harbour to them?

    It's actually much worse, Fiachra2. The foreshore was alienated from public ownership, over 20 acres reclaimed from the sea, and this has now been handed to the Sisk Group — essentially FOR NOTHING!!

    I say for nothing, because we have a non-functioning harbour with no mooring possible. Only small boats which can be dragged ashore can use it. Commercial fishers who previously used the harbour have been locked out for five years now and no sign of being re-admitted. And as a haven from weather, it's pretty much useless.

    So why is this predatory developer not being held to account by WCC? Will we be seeing certain people moving from WCC to jobs with Sisk in the near future?


  • #1707
    Cerco
    Registered Users Posts: 2,032 ✭✭✭Cerco


    "Meanwhile, in a harbour closer to home, Nama is believed to have written down over €50m of debt attached to the blighted Greystones Harbour Development.
    The write-down is thought to be part of a secretive deal struck to allow building giant Sisk Group to take over the project, which is a public-private partnership in conjunction with Wicklow County Council.
    Originally, Sisk Group and Michael Cotter's Park Developments formed a consortium, Sispar, which was to build the project. Now Sisk is taking "full responsibility" for the development."


    I for one do not believe this story. In a week where severe health cuts are announced I cannot believe that NAMA would secretly wipe out €50M of taxpayers money to benefit a going concern. There would be no logical reason to do this. Independent Newspapers have been wrong before and I believe they are wrong about this one. Statements such as "is believed" and "is thought" are not definitive.



    If this story is found to be true then we are indeed facing a grotesque vista.


  • #1708
    Fiachra2
    Registered Users Posts: 594 ✭✭✭Fiachra2


    Quote below from the NAMAwinelake blog supports the view that this deal is unlikely. However it was confirmed publicly last July that no money was owed to NAMA. It seems next to impossible that Sispar settled the debt so a write of would seem the only possible explanation. Maybe we will hear more at the Town Council meeting on 25 September.



    This “deal”, if confirmed, would raise a couple of concerns about the way in which NAMA conducts its business. Firstly, NAMA is proscribed by the NAMA Act from selling assets to defaulting debtors. Whilst Sisk is understood to have been servicing its share of the loan, both consortium partners were presumably jointly and severally liable for the full repayment of the loan. So, on what basis can NAMA have agreed to write-down the debt “to allow building giant Sisk Group to take over the project” when, if the loan were to be called in, Sisk would presumably have become liable for the lot and may even have become a defaulting debtor. Secondly, as with all secret deals, there is a concern that NAMA has failed to maximise the value of its loans. Might a third party have offered better terms to buy the loan and develop the Harbour? Who knows, who can tell, it’s secret.

    As is usual with individual projects, NAMA is keeping schtum and not providing any comment.


  • #1709
    The Durutti Column
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 274 ✭✭The Durutti Column


    Fiachra2 wrote: »
    Quote below from the NAMAwinelake blog supports the view that this deal is unlikely. However it was confirmed publicly last July that no money was owed to NAMA. It seems next to impossible that Sispar settled the debt so a write of would seem the only possible explanation. Maybe we will hear more at the Town Council meeting on 25 September.



    This “deal”, if confirmed, would raise a couple of concerns about the way in which NAMA conducts its business. Firstly, NAMA is proscribed by the NAMA Act from selling assets to defaulting debtors. Whilst Sisk is understood to have been servicing its share of the loan, both consortium partners were presumably jointly and severally liable for the full repayment of the loan. So, on what basis can NAMA have agreed to write-down the debt “to allow building giant Sisk Group to take over the project” when, if the loan were to be called in, Sisk would presumably have become liable for the lot and may even have become a defaulting debtor. Secondly, as with all secret deals, there is a concern that NAMA has failed to maximise the value of its loans. Might a third party have offered better terms to buy the loan and develop the Harbour? Who knows, who can tell, it’s secret.

    As is usual with individual projects, NAMA is keeping schtum and not providing any comment.

    http://namawinelake.wordpress.com/2012/09/04/nama-in-e50m-secret-debt-writeoff-report/


  • #1710
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    The Durutti Column wrote: »
    Sispar owed about €46m to AIB when NAMA was set up and took over all developer loans above €20m.

    Sispar is a joint venture SPV between Sisk and Park Developments.
    The Durutti Column wrote: »
    I would not believe the debt has gone away without some proof, especially given the source of the statement.

    The debt could only go away either by Sisk taking on all of Sispar's debt and paying it back, or by it being forgiven by NAMA as part of some deal.

    As the debt is basically a public asset (in accounting terms) and is guaranteed by the parent companies Sisk and Park, NAMA could call it in anytime and expect full payment. So why should they forgive it?

    If NAMA have done so, I would hope our TDs would probe for some straight answers on this. €36m forgiven is €36m less for schools, special needs kids, health, and all the other services being so savagely cut. Even for TDs pay...
    Looks like Durutti was right then, except the taxpayer has thrown in another few million to round it up to the €50M now being mentioned. Sure what's a few mill between friends.

    How much did the developers spend on the two piers so far?
    They were supposed to be getting the big muddy site for apartments in exchange for building a harbour. If they now get paid the 50M to cover their harbour costs, does that mean they are getting the apartment site very cheap, or for free?


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  • #1711
    The Durutti Column
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 274 ✭✭The Durutti Column


    Thank you, recedite.

    And yes, what this means, if true, is that one developer, Sisk, has got hold of a large swathe of prime development land, over 20 acres, essentially for nothing. As I put it in my response to Fiachra2 above:
    It's actually much worse, Fiachra2. The foreshore was alienated from public ownership, over 20 acres reclaimed from the sea, and this has now been handed to the Sisk Group — essentially FOR NOTHING!!

    I say for nothing, because we have a non-functioning harbour with no mooring possible. Only small boats which can be dragged ashore can use it. Commercial fishers who previously used the harbour have been locked out for five years now and no sign of being re-admitted. And as a haven from weather, it's pretty much useless.

    So why is this predatory developer not being held to account by WCC? Will we be seeing certain people moving from WCC to jobs with Sisk in the near future?

    If NAMA has indeed let them off the debt, it amounts to the public paying for the useless harbour. Public Private Partnerships are supposed to avoid incurring public investment cost, substituting instead private funds in exchange for an operating concession to the private investors, so Fiachra is right in his remark about this particular PPP. It may formally exist as such, but in terms of achieving its objective of saving public money it has failed totally.

    Don't expect much probing by politicians. Harris and Donnnelly have agitated for some deal behind the scenes, so they will hardly be upset, even if the €50m is now lost to other purposes, such as schools or health. It seems savage cuts to the social good are just fine, but developers have to be bailed out, in their book.


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