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Are you going to pay the household charge? [Part 1]

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Comments

  • #8012
    donalg1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,513 ✭✭✭donalg1


    Freddie59 wrote: »
    Reality is, though, that these were already being paid for, and the money is being used to pay off banking debt, while support a lavish Public sector and SW system, so the money is going towards.......banking debt.

    Street cleaning? I can live without it.

    Parks? Likewise.

    Public area landscaping - give me a break.

    Library services. Of no use - given the proliferation of the internet.

    Road and footpath maintenance? Equally - give me a break. Have you seen the state of footpaths - and not just lately.

    The reality is that we are living beyond our means. And the solution is not to tax the already heavily-burdened taxpayer - but to tackle the root causes.

    Seriously?

    You complain about the state of the footpaths and then moan that paying €100. Do you not think the reason that the footpaths / roads are in bad condition is because there is not enough money to fix them.

    If you are complaining about the lack of services provided by Local Authorities I assume you have paid your Household Charge?


  • #8013
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    seamus wrote: »
    There is an argument that density plays a part. If you have a density of (say) 250 homes/sq.km., then that council will bring in €25,000/sq.km. from this charge, allowing scope to maintain facilities in that square kilometre to the tune of €25,000 per year.
    And lets face it, that €25,000 wouldn't even pay the salary of one lazy council worker. And sure in this country we need at least 6 of them to visit a pothole 3 times at aprox 20 hours a time before it's in some state of repair. :rolleyes: Like already mentioned, tackle the root of the issues and don't tax the hell out of people.


  • #8014
    mconigol
    Registered Users Posts: 1,583 ✭✭✭mconigol


    seamus wrote: »
    No disagreement in general, but I know your next idea to dispute whether a flat-rate charge is fair.

    There is an argument that density plays a part. If you have a density of (say) 250 homes/sq.km., then that council will bring in €25,000/sq.km. from this charge, allowing scope to maintain facilities in that square kilometre to the tune of €25,000 per year.
    On the other hand a rural council may have 10 properties per sq.km. (probably actually way too big a figure), giving them €1,000 per square kilometre and therefore giving them scope to do very little but the most basic maintenance in that area.

    The rural dwellers will always have the freedom to attend more urban areas and make use of the facilities for free, so it evens out across all areas.

    €100 is the most basic charge possible, and while I don't disagree with the concept of equity in this regard, if we were all paying our "fair share", we'd all be paying a whole lot more than €100/year, so I see no reason to dispute it on the fairness basis.



    Not that a flat rate charge isn't fair but that it's cant possibly be argued that this charge is being used to pay for public services, because it's not.

    If a person living up the end of a laneway in Cavan gets a flyer through the door saying that they need to pay this charge to ensure local services are provided what do you expect them to think when they look out their window. Especially if they have built or bought recently and paid stamp duty and council charges (in the case of a new build).

    For the government to use the argument of services suffering means absolutely nothing to someone like this because they don't have the services in the first place and will not have them in the future.

    That's why a property tax is ridiculous. It tries to segment the source of finance to say that this tax will pay for these services and this other tax will pay for these other services etc..etc...this doesn't make sense. Services should be paid from one national pot so that there can be no segmentation like this.

    Also, you can't attend services. What do you expect, rural people should drive into town to enjoy the street lighting or the beautiful landscaped roundabouts??! Cmon! If you have to travel to attend "local services" then their not local are they?


  • #8015
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    donalg1 wrote: »
    Seriously?

    You complain about the state of the footpaths and then moan that paying €100.

    Are you serious! The €100 is neither here not there to many like myself who will not pay on principal. Why? because we recognise the charge for what it really is and where it will leap to in the next few years . . .


  • #8016
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/household-charge-nearly-9000-payments-per-hour-needed-to-meet-next-fridays-deadline-3060948.html

    Let this sink in for a moment.....

    9000 people per hour, not per week, or per day, PER HOUR


    ALMOST 9,000 families will have to register an hour to pay the €100 household charge if next Saturday's deadline is to be met.

    Some 1.3 million households have yet to pay the charge -- and are facing the prospect of fines and a possible day in court if they fail to pay on time.

    The Government is hoping that hundreds of thousands of homeowners will register over the next six days.

    After that, those who haven't paid will be targeted at home and reminded to pay by teams of local authority staff.

    Interestingly enough.....

    Seems the Govt are now even threatening their own employees....
    First the people of the country they supposedly work for, now its the people of the country that work for them!

    And some people here claim we live in a democracy?

    Local authority staff have been warned that action may be taken against them if they refuse to call door-to-door to remind people that they owe the Household Charge.

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0326/householdcharge.html

    Shambles I tell ya :pac:


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  • #8017
    donalg1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,513 ✭✭✭donalg1


    LordSutch wrote: »
    Are you serious! The €100 is neither here not there to many like myself who will not pay on principal. Why? because we recognise the charge for what it really is and where it will leap to in the next few years . . .

    You cant complain about the lack of services being provided if you dont want to pay for them its pretty simple really. The next few years you will have the property tax to pay and I dont imagine it will be so easily avoided as this household charge so your choice in payment then wont really come into it.

    And another thing as I have previously said I dont think any of the anti campaigners bar maybe 1% are not paying on a point of principle.


  • #8018
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    donalg1 wrote: »
    You cant complain about the lack of services being provided if you dont want to pay for them its pretty simple really. The next few years you will have the property tax to pay and I dont imagine it will be so easily avoided as this household charge so your choice in payment them wont really come into it.

    We wont if the household charge doesnt survive, and the clock is ticking........


    9000 people per hour Donal........


  • #8019
    lividduck
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,250 ✭✭✭lividduck


    Freddie59 wrote: »
    From householdcharge.ie:

    These services are essential to your community.

    They include:

    fire and emergency services; - who charge for their services accordingly

    maintenance and cleaning of streets; - we can live without this as very little is done anyway.

    planning and development; - my hole. Who charge through the teeth.

    public parks; - likewise we can do without these.

    street lighting; - OK necessary service.

    libraries; - overtaken by technology.

    open spaces - my hole; again.

    leisure amenities. - and these would be?

    These facilities benefit everyone. - no they don't.
    You must have one big hole then!:D


  • #8020
    donalg1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,513 ✭✭✭donalg1


    Ghandee wrote: »
    We wont if the household charge doesnt survive, and the clock is ticking........


    9000 people per hour Donal........

    Really!!! You actually think there is any chance of the household charge being scrapped, good god I didnt think there were still people so naive knocking about the place. There is no chance of this being scrapped absolutely zero chance the sooner you realise that the better.

    Wow people still thinking that is so funny.


  • #8021
    Sky King
    Registered Users Posts: 4,431 ✭✭✭Sky King


    Asumming a million households dont pay and they send a pair around to each of them and each visit takes a minute on average (very unlikely) you're looking at 33 thousand man-hours in calling around to people. That's pricey.

    I reckon they won't be doing that!


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  • #8022
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    So the people who have paid, are they going to get reimbursed or what?


  • #8023
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    donalg1 wrote: »
    Really!!! You actually think there is any chance of the household charge being scrapped,

    1.3 million people must be naive too Donal.

    Classic case of 'They're all wrong but I am right'


  • #8024
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    prinz wrote: »
    So the people who have paid, are they going to get reimbursed or what?

    I hope so.


  • #8025
    donalg1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,513 ✭✭✭donalg1


    Ghandee wrote: »
    1.3 million people must be naive too Donal.

    Classic case of 'They're all wrong but I am right'

    Wow so now you can say that 1.3million people beleive that the Household Charge is going to be scrapped, you must have been busy compiling that data.


  • #8026
    crusher000
    Registered Users Posts: 649 ✭✭✭crusher000


    Stand together and the Government will fold. Some people here may not have heard of the rod license but the FF government tried to bring it in in the late 80's . It was called a license but anglers saw it for what it was a tax. A tax that wasn't going to the local fisheries but to central Government to be redistrubed to ........... sound familiar. Now there weren't 1.6 million anglers in Ireland but they rallied together and fought. Some people got court injunctions for their actions but guess what ? A few 1000 anglers won and the rod license was dropped even though it had already been passed through the dail. So to all the nay sayers that say it will go ahead or it will be called something else or you will have to pay penalties lie down and take it up the a** but I ain't backing down.


  • #8027
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    donalg1 wrote: »
    Wow so now you can say that 1.3million people beleive that the Household Charge is going to be scrapped, you must have been busy compiling that data.

    No, I'm saying that so far, 1.3 million people have not paid/registered.

    General feeling among these people is whether or not its scrapped is irrelevant.

    We'll see what the offical figure is on Saturday though.


  • #8028
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    crusher000 wrote: »
    Stand together and the Government will fold.

    While I agree about the standing together on this issue, I certainly do not want the Government to fold, I just want them to be taught a lesson, ala Mrs Thatch and the Poll tax in the 80s.


  • #8029
    donalg1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,513 ✭✭✭donalg1


    Ghandee wrote: »
    No, I'm saying that so far, 1.3 million people have not paid/registered.

    General feeling among these people is whether or not its scrapped is irrelevant.

    We'll see what the offical figure is on Saturday though.

    I said that anyone that still thinks this charge will be scrapped is naive,

    And you came back and said that 1.3 million people must be naive, which means that you obviously think that all of the people that havent registered so far believe that the household charge will be scrapped.


  • #8030
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    donalg1 wrote: »
    I said that anyone that still thinks this charge will be scrapped is naive,

    And you came back and said that 1.3 million people must be naive, which means that you obviously think that all of the people that havent registered so far believe that the household charge will be scrapped.

    Put it this way Donal.

    If 1.3 million people, tax paying citizens of Ireland refuse to pay/register for a household charge, do you (truly) believe the Govt will pursue it, and implement it without them?

    Serious answer please?


  • #8031
    donalg1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,513 ✭✭✭donalg1


    Ghandee wrote: »
    Put it this way Donal.

    If 1.3 million people, tax paying citizens of Ireland refuse to pay/register for a household charge, do you (truly) believe the Govt will pursue it, and implement it without them?

    Serious answer please?

    Put it this way, the number of people that pay will increase this week above its current level.

    Also, there will be a good number of people that will not have paid by the 01st April. Now I wont begin to speculate on the numbers that pay or dont pay.

    One thing I am sure of is that this charge will not be scrapped, no matter how many people do or dont pay it. Thinking it will be scrapped is foolish and naive.

    The Government wont be overly concerned with the amount that have paid by next saturday as the more people that dont pay then the more they will take in fines when they ultimately do pay, in six months they will have to pay €116 instead of the €100 so some will see it as not that urgent to get it paid this week.

    There will be a higher number paying this week than any other week so far as most people will wait until the last minute to pay it.


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  • #8032
    mconigol
    Registered Users Posts: 1,583 ✭✭✭mconigol


    donalg1 wrote: »
    You cant complain about the lack of services being provided if you dont want to pay for them its pretty simple really. The next few years you will have the property tax to pay and I dont imagine it will be so easily avoided as this household charge so your choice in payment then wont really come into it.

    And another thing as I have previously said I dont think any of the anti campaigners bar maybe 1% are not paying on a point of principle.

    Yes you can complain. They weren't able to provide these services to any kind of high standard when there was enough cash. What's changed?

    They need to get their house in order before coming cap in hand looking for more cash.


  • #8033
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    donalg1 wrote: »
    The Government wont be overly concerned with the amount that have paid by next saturday as the more people that dont pay then the more they will take in fines when they ultimately do pay, in six months they will have to pay €116 instead of the €100 so some will see it as not that urgent to get it paid this week.

    Of course they will be concerned. People have already said they don't care about the charges and they're just not going to pay, full stop.

    If they don't pay, then the money doesn't go into the pot and then they've broken their agreement with Europe. Tough shít Europe....


  • #8034
    donalg1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,513 ✭✭✭donalg1


    smash wrote: »
    Of course they will be concerned. People have already said they don't care about the charges and they're just not going to pay, full stop.

    If they don't pay, then the money doesn't go into the pot and then they've broken their agreement with Europe. Tough shít Europe....

    No tough sh*t Ireland.

    I am sure the Government can raise the money some other way, a rise in VAT or Income Tax should do it, or a cut in SW payments.


  • #8035
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    donalg1 wrote: »
    Put it this way, the number of people that pay will increase this week above its current level.

    Also, there will be a good number of people that will not have paid by the 01st April. Now I wont begin to speculate on the numbers that pay or dont pay.

    One thing I am sure of is that this charge will not be scrapped, no matter how many people do or dont pay it. Thinking it will be scrapped is foolish and naive.

    The Government wont be overly concerned with the amount that have paid by next saturday as the more people that dont pay then the more they will take in fines when they ultimately do pay, in six months they will have to pay €116 instead of the €100 so some will see it as not that urgent to get it paid this week.

    There will be a higher number paying this week than any other week so far as most people will wait until the last minute to pay it.

    Well, I believe that unless more than 800,000 people have registered by Sat (less than 51%) the charge must be scrapped.

    To pursue over half the population, and threaten them with legal action (essentially labeling them criminals) will be this Govts undoing.

    I'll be the first person to admit I'm wrong if this proves not to be the case.
    Last official figures were given as +/- 300,000 people.
    That means give or take half a million have to register, and pay by this Saturday.

    Highly, highly unlikely imo.


  • #8036
    Carter P Fly
    Registered Users Posts: 618 ✭✭✭Carter P Fly


    The penalties dfor non payment are laughable. I just finsished paying taxes fora property I have abroad and teh sinple fact is if I didnt pay these taxes the penalties are crippling with a few hundred becoming a few thousand in a matter of weeks.


  • #8037
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    donalg1 wrote: »
    No tough sh*t Ireland.

    I am sure the Government can raise the money some other way, a rise in VAT or Income Tax should do it, or a cut in SW payments.

    If they havent yet realised by now that the latest VAT increase has failed, (ask any high street retailer) this would be disastrous.

    More money in peoples pockets, will mean more money available to spend.

    Public spending is one essential key to help a struggling economy, the dogs on the street know this.


  • #8038
    crusher000
    Registered Users Posts: 649 ✭✭✭crusher000


    I would like to thank out current government for giving me the oppurtunity to protest. If it weren't for this house hold tax I wouldn't be able to show my dis quiet at the wrongs that are being imposed on ordinary citizens. If they want to turn me into a dis obedient citizen that is the cross I'm willing to carry. Due to work commitments and trying to keep my head above water a march on the dail would be probably not be an option for me so by not paying the house hold charge they have opened up that door. Thank you FG and Lab .

    Sincerly yours

    Not paying


  • #8039
    donalg1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,513 ✭✭✭donalg1


    Ghandee wrote: »
    Well, I believe that unless more than 800,000 people have registered by Sat (less than 51%) the charge must be scrapped.

    To pursue over half the population, and threaten them with legal action (essentially labeling them criminals) will be this Govts undoing.

    I'll be the first person to admit I'm wrong if this proves not to be the case.
    Last official figures were given as +/- 300,000 people.
    That means give or take half a million have to register, and pay by this Saturday.

    Highly, highly unlikely imo.

    You are hoping that they will scrap it, but there is no chance of it being scrapped and saying that if over half of those liable dont pay it then it will be scrapped is clutching at straws.


  • #8040
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    donalg1 wrote: »
    No tough sh*t Ireland.
    You've told other people that they're naive, you honestly think that there'll be repercussions with Europe if people don't pay this to raise a measly 160m?
    donalg1 wrote: »
    I am sure the Government can raise the money some other way, a rise in VAT or Income Tax should do it, or a cut in SW payments.
    Yes they will raise it in other ways. Motor tax and VRT is going back up, it will bring in 5x more than a property tax. They can easily cut ministers wages and do away with extortionate pensions too. This property tax is not needed!


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  • #8041
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    Household charge.

    Pumping air into a punctured tyre.
    Waste of time.

    Fix the tyre first............... and don't forget the potholes as well.

    Don't register, don't pay.
    Hold the line folks.


This discussion has been closed.
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