Dog insured as pedigree but no IKC papers. How do I inform insurance company?

Nephew · 22-11-2010 10:40pm #1

I bought a pedigree dog earlier in the year and insured the dog as a pedigree rather than a cross breed which cost an additional €70. Needless to say the breeder can't provide me with IKC papers so they're refunding part of what I paid.

The dog looks like a pedigree but I have no IKC papers verifying this, so the dog is essentially a cross breed so I paid €70 more for the insurance policy than I should have.

I have some outstanding claims and the insurance will be up for renewal in a few months. Do you think it would be safe to inform the insurance company that the dog is actually a cross breed or would this void the policy and affect the outstanding claims and the chance of getting insured in the future as I unknowingly insured the dog as something that it isn't and we all know how insurance companies will do anything to get out of paying claims. But on the other hand I don't want to pay an additional €70 each year that I shouldn't have to.

TooManyDogs · 24-11-2010 1:08am

I would imagine the insurance company would certainly consider your dog a pedigree even though it doesnt have papers. If it looks like a pedigree and your vets have it on their books as a pedigree but you claim to the insurance company that he's a crossbreed I'd say they'd use that as an excuse not to pay any claims. Friends of mine have a rescue GSD that they had to register with the insurance company as pedigree regardless of lack of papers.

Wisco · 24-11-2010 11:43am

I wouldn't imagine they'd be willing to change it for you, but might be worth an anonymous phone call/email to explain the situation and ask for advice.
If you change insurers, your pet could end up with pre-existing conditions that are not covered with your new insurer.

LisaO · 24-11-2010 12:07pm

Just because you don't have IKC registration it doesn't necessarily mean that your dog isn't "Pure-Bred". It is very possible (& seems to be increasingly common) that owners of pedigree dogs are breeding them & not bothering to register the pups.

In relation to your insurance, it depends on what the extra €70 premium is for - is it to cover the cost of replacing your dog if something unfortunate was to happen, based on the assumption that a registered pedigree would cost more?

Or is it because your dog is of a breed that is prone to particular health problems & more likely to require specific treatments?

Nephew · 27-11-2010 5:39pm

Thanks, guys. I understand what you're saying but as the breeder cannot provide me with IKC papers confirming his pedigree lineage, without IKC papers for all I know his grandfather may have been a german shepherd. If I tried to breed him in the morning with an IKC registered bitch the IKC wouldn't recognise the litter as pedigree labradors so how can the insurance company?

Lisa, he is a labrador. I think I paid €230 to insure him as a pedigree whereas a cross breed was around €160 for the year. The likes of a wolfhound, great dane etc were even more expensive to insure.

andreac · 27-11-2010 8:44pm

Just because you dont have papers for him, doesnt mean hes not a pedigree. Lots of people have pedigree dogs with no papers and can insure them as a pedigree.

Why do you think hes a cross breed anyway? Having no papers doesnt mean thats what he is. It just means that there could be a problem getting him registered properly as maybe the sire or dam wasnt registered and if they arent registered then their progeny cant be either, but doesnt make them any less of a pedigree because they arent registered so you dont really have a case im afraid.

I dont get why you think its a cross breed, just because you didnt get papers

Cherry Blossom · 27-11-2010 10:01pm

Nephew wrote: »

Thanks, guys. I understand what you're saying but as the breeder cannot provide me with IKC papers confirming his pedigree lineage, without IKC papers for all I know his grandfather may have been a german shepherd. If I tried to breed him in the morning with an IKC registered bitch the IKC wouldn't recognise the litter as pedigree labradors so how can the insurance company?

Lisa, he is a labrador. I think I paid €230 to insure him as a pedigree whereas a cross breed was around €160 for the year. The likes of a wolfhound, great dane etc were even more expensive to insure.

I think if you are going to insist that you dog is a cross breed you are going to have to have DNA tests done to prove this to the insurance company, otherwise they will refuse to pay out any claims so you would be in the same position you would if you basically cancelled your policy. The purpose of the IKC is to track records for the purposes of advancing the breed, it is not a comprehensive register of all the dogs of that breed that exist. What were the reasons given for being unable to provide IKC registration?

ferretone · 29-11-2010 2:44am

My dog is a rescue Dobermann, no known ancestry, strayed as a pup and not reclaimed. She does look like a Dobermann, although very fine-boned for one. I raised the doubt with the insurer when taking out the policy, but they said they take the dog as what it appears to be if there is no initial reason to believe otherwise.

And I imagine they would be particularly reluctant to do so with a breed such as the Labrador, which while not as extremely so as the Wolfhound or GD, definitely does have well-known and expensive health issues associated with it, such as the very high rate of Hip Dysplasia. If I were you I would happily kiss the 70 bucks goodbye, just being glad that I had taken out the insurance at all, especially seeing as you have claims on the policy already, having only bought the dog this year.

And would also be more careful to buy from a reputable breeder in future, if you really do want a top-quality, pure-bred dog. And hopefully one who wouldn't develop problems over the insurance excess in the very first year. Labrador pups can't be registered with the IKC without full hip scores and various other tests to make sure they are healthy.

Our rescued Lola, while we do have to pay the premium rate insurance just like yourself, has never had such an expensive issue in her 4-and-a-half years so far (touching wood!) although we were obviously prepared for anything, in light of her uncertain ancestry!

kaiser sauze · 29-11-2010 3:43am

Were you not supplied papers at time of sale, or shown a copy of Form 18 that they had submitted to the IKC?

ISDW · 29-11-2010 10:56am

ferretone wrote: »

Labrador pups can't be registered with the IKC without full hip scores and various other tests to make sure they are healthy.

Sorry, thats not true, although I wish it were. In an ideal world, no registry would accept any pups without the parents having all the relevant health checks, but money talks, so any pup thats come from IKC parents can be registered, as long as the litter comes within the breeding guidelines on age for the parents - even then you can get round it if you have a good excuse, sorry, I mean reason.

andreac · 29-11-2010 12:11pm

ferretone wrote: »

My dog is a rescue Dobermann, no known ancestry, strayed as a pup and not reclaimed. She does look like a Dobermann, although very fine-boned for one. I raised the doubt with the insurer when taking out the policy, but they said they take the dog as what it appears to be if there is no initial reason to believe otherwise.

And I imagine they would be particularly reluctant to do so with a breed such as the Labrador, which while not as extremely so as the Wolfhound or GD, definitely does have well-known and expensive health issues associated with it, such as the very high rate of Hip Dysplasia. If I were you I would happily kiss the 70 bucks goodbye, just being glad that I had taken out the insurance at all, especially seeing as you have claims on the policy already, having only bought the dog this year.

And would also be more careful to buy from a reputable breeder in future, if you really do want a top-quality, pure-bred dog. And hopefully one who wouldn't develop problems over the insurance excess in the very first year. Labrador pups can't be registered with the IKC without full hip scores and various other tests to make sure they are healthy.
Our rescued Lola, while we do have to pay the premium rate insurance just like yourself, has never had such an expensive issue in her 4-and-a-half years so far (touching wood!) although we were obviously prepared for anything, in light of her uncertain ancestry!

Sorry, but that information is incorrect. Pups cant be hip scored until they are at least 12 months old so saying they cant be reg with the IKC is wrong. It is not a requirement by the IKC to have dogs hip scored.

Nephew · 29-11-2010 11:31pm

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

What were the reasons given for being unable to provide IKC registration?

kaiser sauze wrote: »

Were you not supplied papers at time of sale, or shown a copy of Form 18 that they had submitted to the IKC?

First time dog owner so I wasn't exactly familiar with the whole IKC process and the breeders seemed quite genuine assuring us that everything was above board.:rolleyes: Nine months and no IKC papers later, their explanation was that the bitch was a couple of days short of her first birthday when they first notified the IKC of her pregnancy so they won't recognise the litter as the bitch must be over 12 months old. The IKC couldn't or wouldn't confirm if this was true but had no knowledge of the application on their database.

The breeder agreed to refund half of what I paid three weeks ago and hasn't so far. I'm half considering bringing them to the small claims court now as in my eyes I gave them a reasonable time to partially refund some of what I paid, as we bought the dog solely on the premise that it was IKC registered.

Regarding hip scores, it now looks likely that the dog will have to get a full hip replacement in the next six months. I also noticed they sold another litter of 'IKC registered' pups in September, so that would be two litters I am aware of in the first two years of the bitches life.

andreac · 30-11-2010 12:53pm

Nephew wrote: »

First time dog owner so I wasn't exactly familiar with the whole IKC process and the breeders seemed quite genuine assuring us that everything was above board.:rolleyes: Nine months and no IKC papers later, their explanation was that the bitch was a couple of days short of her first birthday when they first notified the IKC of her pregnancy so they won't recognise the litter as the bitch must be over 12 months old. The IKC couldn't or wouldn't confirm if this was true but had no knowledge of the application on their database.

The breeder agreed to refund half of what I paid three weeks ago and hasn't so far. I'm half considering bringing them to the small claims court now as in my eyes I gave them a reasonable time to partially refund some of what I paid, as we bought the dog solely on the premise that it was IKC registered.

Regarding hip scores, it now looks likely that the dog will have to get a full hip replacement in the next six months. I also noticed they sold another litter of 'IKC registered' pups in September, so that would be two litters I am aware of in the first two years of the bitches life.

She was less than a year old:eek: Did you not ask to see her papers or ask how old she was? Poor girl, was only a puppy herself:(

Sounds like a puppy farmer to me. This is why people MUST do their research before buying any dog.

With regards to your original query though, just because your dog doesnt have papers, does not make it any less of a pedigree.

daenerysstormborn3 · 01-12-2010 5:56pm

In the UK pups can't be registered without hip scoring etc but in Ireland the rules are basically non-existent

I would be very unwilling to buy a pup without papers to be honest.

"The breeder agreed to refund half of what I paid three weeks ago and hasn't so far. I'm half considering bringing them to the small claims court now as in my eyes I gave them a reasonable time to partially refund some of what I paid, as we bought the dog solely on the premise that it was IKC registered.

Regarding hip scores, it now looks likely that the dog will have to get a full hip replacement in the next six months. I also noticed they sold another litter of 'IKC registered' pups in September, so that would be two litters I am aware of in the first two years of the bitches life."

To be honest if I were you I wouldn't bother with small claims court or any such thing, you're very unlikely to get anything out of it. You are as much at fault as the "breeder" here because you did not demand the papers with the puppy when you bought it, if the pups were correctly registered the "breeder" would've had these to hand to you at the time of purchase, no excuses.

People should bear in mind that when registering a litter you do need to provide the 5 generation history of the pup, it's not very easy to fabricate this kind of document if you don't actually possess it, so this leads to ads reading as "IKC registered" when they're actually not and new owners being distracted by the "new puppy syndrome" and not actually insisting on the documentation being handed over.

If your pup has to get a full hip replacement so early in life I would report the "breeder" to the IKC and the ISPCA, there is very little that will be done but this is really the extent of what we can do in Ireland. 2 litters in the first two years is an absolute disgrace and they should be reported for this alone.

ISDW · 02-12-2010 4:35pm

pixiebean22 wrote: »

In the UK pups can't be registered without hip scoring etc but in Ireland the rules are basically non-existent

Sorry, but I think you are mistaken there. This is taken from the KC's own website:

Before breeding from a dog or bitch, the Kennel Club advises breeders to investigate whether there are any possible inherited conditions that may affect the breed. Breeders can do this by discussing the matter with the breeder of their dog, the relevant breed club or clubs, the Kennel Club Health & Breeders Services Department or, possibly, their veterinary surgeon. There are several dog health schemes currently in operation to assist in the prevention or control of some diseases (including DNA tests), and where they exist, the Kennel Club strongly recommends that both sire and dam are tested.

The highlighting is my own. I have a couple of dogs that are UK KC registered and their parents weren't hipscored or eye tested.

Nephew · 02-12-2010 8:45pm

andreac wrote: »

She was less than a year old:eek: Did you not ask to see her papers or ask how old she was? Poor girl, was only a puppy herself:(

Sounds like a puppy farmer to me. This is why people MUST do their research before buying any dog.

With regards to your original query though, just because your dog doesnt have papers, does not make it any less of a pedigree.

First time dog owner so we were perhaps a little to naive. But we were led to believe she was a few years older than the male who was supposed to be nearly three years old.

pixiebean22 wrote: »

If your pup has to get a full hip replacement so early in life I would report the "breeder" to the IKC and the ISPCA, there is very little that will be done but this is really the extent of what we can do in Ireland. 2 litters in the first two years is an absolute disgrace and they should be reported for this alone.

Out of curiosity, would a full hip replacement so young solely be because of improper breeding or could it also develop in a young dog that was bred in an ideal environment.

daenerysstormborn3 · 05-12-2010 7:40pm

Nephew I'm not an expert and I'm not claiming that what I'm saying is accurate (as I don't know the dog or the line) but it would be very unusual for a dog to need a hip replacement so young unless there was some ill health in the line. I mean you say you bought the dog earlier in the year so I'm going to assume the dog is probably around 9 months old maybe? That is very young to need any sort of veterinary care aside from vaccinations and general check-ups.

However, don't blame yourself, the person at fault here is the breeder (judging by the information you have supplied).

dvet · 07-12-2010 2:14am

On the hip replacement topic, you are right that a true hip replacement is usually only done on older dogs who already have bad arthritis. (similar to humans).

So I'm assuming that what the OP's dog is getting done is one of 2 surgeries which are called Triple Pelvic Osteotomy and Juvenile Pubic Symphysis. These are preventative surgeries done on young dogs (<1yr) with hip dysplasia, which prevent arthritis from developing in the future. Since the names of these are a bit of a moutful, I'm guessing the vet just simplified it to 'hip replacement' (don't blame him!!)

Thank god he is insured, OP... these surgeries must be very pricey!!

dvet · 07-12-2010 2:21am

Nephew wrote: »

Out of curiosity, would a full hip replacement so young solely be because of improper breeding or could it also develop in a young dog that was bred in an ideal environment.

Hip dysplasia is a genetic thing, so the only way to prevent it is to breed from dogs who have been hip scored and have been proven to have good hips. A good breeder should definitely do this, so in a way, responsible breeding does help to prevent hip dysplasia from being passed on.

Your dog is lucky that it is getting operated on so young, before it has had time to develop arthritis - some dogs are very arthritic by the time their hip dysplasia is ever investigated, and surgery for them is much less succesful!

Nephew · 07-12-2010 5:24pm

Pixie, he's nearly 11 months old and the vet said he'll more than likely have to get the operation in a few months time.

Dvet, I'm hoping if it has to be done that the insurance covers it as I was told it might be as much as €6000 for the operation.

On a side note, should the the breeders vet not have reported them when the bitch had two litters, that I know of, before she was even two years old?

The Sweeper · 08-12-2010 11:52am

The insurance companies reasons for hiking up the insurance on purebreed dogs is because there is a list of recognised conditions that different breeds are predisposed to. It's not that they assume 'hybrid vigour' in crossbreeds, but rather that they can't claim a higher likelihood of a certain condition in a mongrel just because it's part bred with something recognisable.

If you were to register your labrador as a crossbreed for insurance, just because you had no papers, and the dog were to develop hip dysplasia, you could find yourself with an insurance company refusing to pay out.

Subsequently, whether or not your dog is papered, if it looks sufficiently like a specific breed that the vet will identify it as xyz breed on a claim form, you run the risk that the insurance company may not pay out on an illness that the breed is predisposed towards, on the basis that you did not disclose the dog's breed when taking out insurance.

Dog insured as pedigree but no IKC papers. How do I inform insurance company?

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