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Time for Occupy Waterford to go

24

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,063 ✭✭✭Finnbar01


    jayboi wrote: »
    Could they not get whatshisface to do it?

    Whatshisface or offhisface?


  • Registered Users Posts: 700 ✭✭✭kayaksurfbum


    Can the council not just take it away now that its empty?


  • Registered Users Posts: 188 ✭✭invalid


    The Occupy Waterford was just another example of people jumping on a bandwagon. once the reality of cold nights, no money, being ignored and it being boring they moved onto something else. I suspect the Aniti-Household Charge got an influx of members recently, next it will be Anti the new EU treaty, after that they will probably go back to watching loose change or some such nonsense as that.

    The occupy movement lacked credibility from the beginning, first there claim to represent the 99%, get off the moral highground, most of us in the western world are in the so called 1%, ask anyone in Darfur, Congo or Burma about poverty, exclusion and exploitation.

    As for the Occupy Waterford, what did they stand for? There actions seem to be limited to a war with the Traffic Laws of Ireland. No only do they claim to represent the majority, the "99%" they then had members who refuse to recognise the sovereignty of the state, so they could basically drive untaxed, uninsured cars. Pathetic.

    If you want to change the way the world works you will achieve nothing by sitting in a tent on the side of the road. Especially if all your demands basically amount to a winge about the banks or the government or reality.


  • Registered Users Posts: 700 ✭✭✭kayaksurfbum


    Totally agree with you.

    Not much support for them on here now. So how do we get rid of the sh!t left on the quay. It makes me pretty angry when i drive past it everyday.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,272 ✭✭✭merlante


    The anger directed at the occupy movement from the start tells its own story. Most people don't want to think that certain aspects of society, or of their lives in general, are optional, or could be changed, because that would challenge their self-concept and way of life.

    Otherwise, it would be all 'live and let live' right? (And no, I don't buy that you are all really so concerned about the visual impact of the camp.)


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,326 ✭✭✭S28382


    ziedth wrote: »
    How about we occupy "Occupy Waterford" in protest.........


    Haha now there's something for all of us to take part in


  • Registered Users Posts: 188 ✭✭invalid


    merlante wrote: »
    The anger directed at the occupy movement from the start tells its own story.

    I don't believe that at all. The "anger" at the Occupy movement I feel is due to its origins. It makes claims of support it cannot substantiate, it uses methods which generally only interferes with he lives of ordinary citizens and its anarchic structure gives it no discernable goal.
    merlante wrote: »
    Most people don't want to think that certain aspects of society, or of their lives in general, are optional, or could be changed, because that would challenge their self-concept and way of life.

    And like the Occupy movement you make very incorrect assumptions about the general populace. Ireland is a very educated, motivated and engaged country; the level of knowledge on international issues (though sometimes skewed) is something to be proud of. This little country has more influence in the world than it has any right to.

    But also “most people” have lives to lead, children to rear and work to do. It is very easy to be a revolutionary with a full stomach. It is very easy to look for revolutionary change with the knowledge that no change will not harm you. Change in a democracy cannot be revolutionary, it must be gradual, it mist bring the majority with them

    To be a movement you must move. A great example of a modern political movement is the Green movement. In many respects they have won, not by stupid nonsensical protest but by engaging in the established structures and persuading people that addressing many of the environmental issues they raised was good for them. Most European political parties now hold as core principals many things that 30 years ago was seen as loony left politics.

    The occupy movement have not tried this, they have engaged in mass protest against in general Capitalism and its perceived agents big business, the banks and government (ironically using the internet and mobile communications to somewhat coordinate). I will not write an essay on Capitalism right or wrong, but nobody has peacefully destroyed an economic system and built a newer fairer one at the same time. There are always victims and no possible system is perfect.

    What the Occupy movement seem to say, especially the local movement is “Banks bad, Taxes on me bad, Debts are bad, Tax someone else and it will be all better”
    merlante wrote: »
    Otherwise, it would be all 'live and let live' right? (And no, I don't buy that you are all really so concerned about the visual impact of the camp.)

    And as for the visual impact, why should we not be annoyed about it? Many people have worked very hard over the years on Sproai, The Tall Ships and Harvest Festivals to try and make Waterford a place for people to come and enjoy. The Clock Tower is one of the main city landmarks and should not be despoiled by a ramshackle camp that serves no purpose, set up and left by people who have proven that they have no sense of personal responsibility.

    Apologies for the rant.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,081 ✭✭✭wellboytoo


    merlante wrote: »
    (And no, I don't buy that you are all really so concerned about the visual impact of the camp.)

    It is the only concern I have had since day one, the participants I ignore like something stuck to my shoe.
    It should be cleared immediately, and I am going to make a few calls to see can we make it happen.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,326 ✭✭✭S28382


    invalid wrote: »
    merlante wrote: »
    The anger directed at the occupy movement from the start tells its own story.

    I don't believe that at all. The "anger" at the Occupy movement I feel is due to its origins. It makes claims of support it cannot substantiate, it uses methods which generally only interferes with he lives of ordinary citizens and its anarchic structure gives it no discernable goal.
    merlante wrote: »
    Most people don't want to think that certain aspects of society, or of their lives in general, are optional, or could be changed, because that would challenge their self-concept and way of life.

    And like the Occupy movement you make very incorrect assumptions about the general populace. Ireland is a very educated, motivated and engaged country; the level of knowledge on international issues (though sometimes skewed) is something to be proud of. This little country has more influence in the world than it has any right to.

    But also “most people” have lives to lead, children to rear and work to do. It is very easy to be a revolutionary with a full stomach. It is very easy to look for revolutionary change with the knowledge that no change will not harm you. Change in a democracy cannot be revolutionary, it must be gradual, it mist bring the majority with them

    To be a movement you must move. A great example of a modern political movement is the Green movement. In many respects they have won, not by stupid nonsensical protest but by engaging in the established structures and persuading people that addressing many of the environmental issues they raised was good for them. Most European political parties now hold as core principals many things that 30 years ago was seen as loony left politics.

    The occupy movement have not tried this, they have engaged in mass protest against in general Capitalism and its perceived agents big business, the banks and government (ironically using the internet and mobile communications to somewhat coordinate). I will not write an essay on Capitalism right or wrong, but nobody has peacefully destroyed an economic system and built a newer fairer one at the same time. There are always victims and no possible system is perfect.

    What the Occupy movement seem to say, especially the local movement is “Banks bad, Taxes on me bad, Debts are bad, Tax someone else and it will be all better”
    merlante wrote: »
    Otherwise, it would be all 'live and let live' right? (And no, I don't buy that you are all really so concerned about the visual impact of the camp.)

    And as for the visual impact, why should we not be annoyed about it? Many people have worked very hard over the years on Sproai, The Tall Ships and Harvest Festivals to try and make Waterford a place for people to come and enjoy. The Clock Tower is one of the main city landmarks and should not be despoiled by a ramshackle camp that serves no purpose, set up and left by people who have proven that they have no sense of personal responsibility.

    Apologies for the rant.


    Very well said fair dues your bang on everything you wrote there......haha that's the best rant iv seen on boards


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 121 ✭✭Finneen


    Hide some heroin in those tents and phone the guards.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,459 ✭✭✭Ledger


    Finneen wrote: »
    Hide some heroin in those tents and phone the guards.

    Then delete your post! ha


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,473 ✭✭✭robtri


    just out of curiousity ... has anybody rang the council and asked why the site is not cleared yet??
    think i will ring them tomorrow myself and see what they say... curious now


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,069 ✭✭✭Hoffmans


    aah ya they have found a new calling there http://www.facebook.com/groups/163307260443400/
    ,sure yer nut in the video at the top of the page was the original occupier, mabey he should go back and clean up his mess now ....


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,069 ✭✭✭Hoffmans


    .


  • Registered Users Posts: 114 ✭✭shabouwcaw


    I don't believe that at all. The "anger" at the Occupy movement I feel is due to its origins. It makes claims of support it cannot substantiate, it uses methods which generally only interferes with he lives of ordinary citizens and its anarchic structure gives it no discernable goal.

    The Global Occupy movement do not make any claims of support. The "We are the 99%" slogan is a critique of the class system, not a claim of support. The 1% refers to those 1% who control the majority of global wealth. That does not assume that those outside of that 1% are anti-capitalist.

    It could be argued that a discernible goal is not necessary. Modern Marxist theory is predominantly a critical theory. The Occupy movement is not even that consistent of an ideology, but the critical aspect remains. The success of the Occupy Movement is not in actual policy change, but in re-arranging the metric of success when applied to protests. Just because things are as they are, does not mean that they should always be that way. The Occupy movement is an ongoing message that the system should be forced to justify itself to us. We should not maintain the system because we can't think of a better alternative. We should be constantly critiquing and resisting any inequality that we cannot abide.

    But also “most people” have lives to lead, children to rear and work to do. It is very easy to be a revolutionary with a full stomach. It is very easy to look for revolutionary change with the knowledge that no change will not harm you. Change in a democracy cannot be revolutionary, it must be gradual, it mist bring the majority with them

    Yes, that is true, most people have those things. But does that make your choice not to do those things somehow less valuable than the decision to be in the social mainstream? I doubt it? And considering those who unthinkingly seek their own benefit within a system that structurally condemns over a billion people to abject starvation, perhaps the social mainstream is in fact a worse choice. Because it is easy to be a revolutionary on a full stomach. With great power comes great responsibility. Many people don't have that choice, and our existence within a privileged West that have plentiful food means we have a moral duty to use that position to try and tackle a system that systematically excludes those at the bottom.

    I agree that democratic change supported by the masses is the priority. But all they are doing is engaging in protest. a protest you are free to accept or reject. But that does not diminish their right to do that protest.

    To be a movement you must move. A great example of a modern political movement is the Green movement. In many respects they have won, not by stupid nonsensical protest but by engaging in the established structures and persuading people that addressing many of the environmental issues they raised was good for them. Most European political parties now hold as core principals many things that 30 years ago was seen as loony left politics.

    The occupy movement have not tried this, they have engaged in mass protest against in general Capitalism and its perceived agents big business, the banks and government (ironically using the internet and mobile communications to somewhat coordinate). I will not write an essay on Capitalism right or wrong, but nobody has peacefully destroyed an economic system and built a newer fairer one at the same time. There are always victims and no possible system is perfect.

    Firstly, that opening sentence is an example of a normative statement that is directly anti-emancipatory. Secondly, I would argue that the Green movement has not accomplished their aims. It has been captured to the same extent as any socially progressive movement by those who are on the "loony left". See the increasing intransigence of those on the Right over environmental issues. See how people like Jeremy Clarkson or Kevin Myers are lauded for their "common sense" approach to environmental issues. See the continued failure to achieve meaningful change or carbon reductions and how the world continues to fail to introduce anything other than tokenistic reform. Perhaps that's not enough?
    Lastly on this one, I would submit that many peaceful economic systems have been introduced that made things fairer. Capitalism for one. But capitalism was only an improvement on Feudalism. It is time to move on.

    I 100% agree that the Occupy Movement has failures (many sexual assaults in the US, the unsightly mess that are many of the camps, laziness of the members, infighting and the growth of elites within camps). I also agree that the time has come to dismantle the Waterford camp, since it was ineffective and also controlled by morons.

    But the Occupy Waterford camp was just a decision by a few people in Waterford to emulate others. The point of this post is that you should not dismiss an ideology or a chance for change because of the failings of the Waterford camp.

    Maybe there might be another Occupy Waterford in the future, one that is done properly, that doesnt look awful, that doesnt alienate people and one that does not become controlled by one or two of the so called "proper socialists" who refuse to accept the input of others. But the fact that we haven't had one yet does not undermine the fact that we should constantly be trying to make every system more equal and more fair. And if Occupy Waterford has made people forget that, then it truly has failed.

    Related:

    http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/millions-back-removal-of-dirty-hippies-with-whom-they-are-in-complete-agreement-201202284950/
    ‎'Tom Logan, from Hatfield, said: "I don't know who I hate most - the bank that sent my business to the wall while awarding huge bonuses to its failing management or the human sewage who have been pointing out what a ****ing disgrace that is.

    "Look at them, with their hair."


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,272 ✭✭✭merlante


    shabouwcaw wrote: »
    Maybe there might be another Occupy Waterford in the future, one that is done properly, that doesnt look awful, that doesnt alienate people and one that does not become controlled by one or two of the so called "proper socialists" who refuse to accept the input of others. But the fact that we haven't had one yet does not undermine the fact that we should constantly be trying to make every system more equal and more fair. And if Occupy Waterford has made people forget that, then it truly has failed.

    This is getting at the point, though, there will never be a perfect occupy protest or any other type of protest. And so long as there is so much as a chink in the armour, say because a camp is unsightly, the objectors are psychologically justified in attacking it. The unsightliness of the camp is just what people ultimately converged on, the contempt was wide-ranging. The fact that my post attracted a big nonsense rant that people mostly agreed with is another indication of this. (They agreed, despite allusions to the Green movement as an ideal when we all know that the early Green movement would have been similarly criticised for hanging out in trees, etc. Also, for the purpose of *that* argument, the Irish were considered to be well educated and outward looking...) There was never an openness to the camp from day one. People should be honest and acknowledge this. It was also clear enough that had critics become involved the outcome would have been quite different. Even a boards.ie Waterford contingent could have had a major influence, but people were not interested.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,081 ✭✭✭wellboytoo


    The preceeding is so much bull and off topic, there is a knackers camp on our main thoroughfare and it should be wiped out, end of story.


  • Registered Users Posts: 72 ✭✭TheGormog


    These guys eroded any public support with their strange viewpoints.

    Over the next few years they will have several bandwagons to jump on and derail (household charge, water charges/metering, etc.).

    Ultimately they will discredit and damage any cause they try to shape. I fear for anybody who buys into their common law crap and finds themselves in financial/legal difficulty as a result.

    Reading about Magna Carta on Wikipedia does not qualify anybody as a legal expert.

    Take down your tent, get a dose of cop on and stop running around the place pretending that you're Erin Brockovich with a goatee.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,101 ✭✭✭MitchKoobski


    Couldn't give a toss about who they are or what they were trying to do at this point. Whatever statement they were trying to make in Waterford has failed.

    Its currently a mess of tents and an eyesore on the Quay that has been left there by a bunch of eejits that can't be arsed to clean up after themselves when they left. Its litter and it needs to be removed.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,069 ✭✭✭Hoffmans


    Couldn't give a toss about who they are or what they were trying to do at this point. Whatever statement they were trying to make in Waterford has failed.

    Its currently a mess of tents and an eyesore on the Quay that has been left there by a bunch of eejits that can't be arsed to clean up after themselves when they left. Its litter and it needs to be removed.
    thats true it does need to go , if nothing else for insurance reasons with the parade coming up and all... wonder how goatee dude woud handle a big personal injury claim with his brethan laws...


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  • Registered Users Posts: 423 ✭✭Bluezar


    Absolute joke of an "organisation". I walk past the place pretty much every day going to work and i hav'nt seen anyone there in months. LEts get a gang of us and go down and get rid of the place!


  • Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 24,056 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sully


    Just a reminder.. Please don't use offensive terms to describe members of the travelling community. This goes against the forum charter. Discuss away, but don't use insults to describe them (or anyone). Cheers!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,081 ✭✭✭wellboytoo


    Ok point taken, the toilet on the quay looks like a des res in comparison to the camp get rid of it please the tourist seson is coming and we must look our best.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,326 ✭✭✭S28382


    Why not get the banks to sponsor a skip and we can throw the camp into the skip the protesters might just jump into the skip after their belongings.....it would kill two birds with one stone by getting rid of the eyesore that is the camp and clean up the dirt that is the protesters


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,439 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    S28382 wrote: »
    Why not get the banks to sponsor a skip and we can throw the camp into the skip the protesters might just jump into the skip after their belongings.....it would kill two birds with one stone by getting rid of the eyesore that is the camp and clean up the dirt that is the protesters

    Why should the council, banks or anybody who isn't the protesters waste our time or money cleaning up their junk?

    The protesters should be made clean up all the junk and ensure that it is disposed off properly, if they don't just jail them or fine them the maximum amount for dumping which is 127k euro.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,326 ✭✭✭S28382


    Cabaal wrote: »
    Why should the council, banks or anybody who isn't the protesters waste our time or money cleaning up their junk?

    The protesters should be made clean up all the junk and ensure that it is disposed off properly, if they don't just jail them or fine them the maximum amount for dumping which is 127k euro.



    jayus i was joking about the banks sponsoring the skip........ it would be ironic if they did sponsor it dont you think


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 455 ✭✭Brick Session


    I had to save to buy any tent I ever owned so I cant understand how these "Hard Done By" occupiers can afford to just abondon perfectly good tents like that.

    My suggestion would be to take them down carefully and give them to local youth / scout type organisations. I am sure they would welcome them as they look like good camping gear.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,069 ✭✭✭Hoffmans


    so what would you do with the used needles and junkie stuff in the tents would you carefully do something with that too.......


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 455 ✭✭Brick Session


    Hoffmans wrote: »
    so what would you do with the used needles and junkie stuff in the tents would you carefully do something with that too.......

    YES, Carefully Dispose it! There is no other way to dispose of used needles etc.

    Would you not agree that would it be great if some of the youth of the City benefited from these tents? :confused:


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,025 ✭✭✭Am Chile


    invalid wrote: »
    Today is February 29th, the Occupy crew have had there scanty town blighting the clock tower for about 4 months now. It is time for them to go. It is unoccupied most of the time, serves no purpose whatsoever and has only marginal support from the community.

    It is the beginning of the major tourist season in Waterford city. In a couple of weeks there will be the 1848 Tricolour Celebration, then the St. Patricks Day parade, then the summer will bring Sparoi and in September the Harvest Festival. All great events, run by dedicated people who truly care about the future of the city. We need the quay cleared of this ramshackle group of tents and hoarding.

    I say to “the Occupiers” It is time for you to go. You have made your point and nobody cared about it. For the good of this city move on.

    If the persons behind occupy wish to protest and create a political movement then do that, do not just sit in a tent and whinge about parking fines.

    To my knowledge having read posts from their facebook pages, they decided to pack up everything and leave short before new years eve, some others were against this move and took over the camp, it seems those who stayed also decided to call it a day, when they called it a day they should have also packed up their gear and tents, it serves no purpose whatsoever leaving one big tent a few small tents around, before st patricks day, everyone who pitched a small and helped pitch the big tent should go back dow the quay and unpitch all the tents and clean up what they left behind.


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