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Will Eamon Gilmore apply his own logic to himself?

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    #32
    comeback_kid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 107 ✭✭comeback_kid


    creedp wrote: »
    Unfortunately the reality is that society in general is not blameless for what went on in the past in relation to child sexual abuse and many other forms of abuse as well. Just as Cardinal Brady should have reported abuse so should society in general. It is inconceivable that people were not aware of instances of abuse and chose not to report. Talking to people of previous generations about this issue it is clear that society knew much more about what went on that is now being portrayed in the media. Society is very good about blanking the truth and then focusing on apportioning blame when an issue arises. Unfortunately we are applying today's societal standards to yesterday's society. I have heard of an e.g. of a case where a family did not want cases of sexual abuse of their children reported because it would bring shame on the family. By coincidence it was a priest who wanted to report this case and was told how dare he try blacken the family name. Obviously, this is a single e.g. but it does serve to highlight that there is a lot of handwringing going on at present by society in general around what is a most horrific issue while conveniently ignoring how society treated this issue at that time.


    in many cases back then , even someone had reported the abuse to the guards , AGS would not have done anything , they have always been deeply political in how they opperate and have always showed the upmost deference to power , back then the church was the ultimate power in this country


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    #33
    creedp
    Registered Users Posts: 5,595 ✭✭✭creedp


    comeback_kid wrote: »
    in many cases back then , even someone had reported the abuse to the guards , AGS would not have done anything , they have always been deeply political in how they opperate and have always showed the upmost deference to power , back then the church was the ultimate power in this country

    I absolutely agree but when I hear people saying that it is beyond comprehension that someone would know about child abuse and not report it ... all I can say is that I'm afraid it was all too common in years gone by for whatever reason. That doesn't make it right but it acknowledges that Irish society was/is deeply flawed when it comes to dealing with this issue.


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    #34
    comeback_kid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 107 ✭✭comeback_kid


    creedp wrote: »
    I absolutely agree but when I hear people saying that it is beyond comprehension that someone would know about child abuse and not report it ... all I can say is that I'm afraid it was all too common in years gone by for whatever reason. That doesn't make it right but it acknowledges that Irish society was/is deeply flawed when it comes to dealing with this issue.

    absolutley , i dont believe for a second that people were oblivious to what was going on , in a country with people as nosey as us irish , your neighbours know what you had for breakfast before you get up


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    #35
    Shea O'Meara
    Closed Accounts Posts: 960 ✭✭✭Shea O'Meara


    Bishop_Donal wrote: »
    It's kinda ironic that in recent times Gilmore and Quinn have left the people that they represent down a hell of a lot more than Brady has though!!

    In fact the vast majority of people who Brady 'represents' (which of course is theologically incorrect) are not calling for his resignation at all!!!!

    That's brainwashing and being a little simple minded for ya.
    Bishop_Donal wrote: »
    The majority of people who are disgusted with him are people who have no faith whatsoever - hence he means nothing to them in the first instance (so why they want him gone is very questionable). Maybe it's, well if I have no religion I sure as hell don't want anybody else to have one either.
    Maybe it's sufferering under the yoke of the church, finally freeing oneself and calling the man for the immoral criminal that he is?
    Don't mix peoples belief in a God or their faith with a buch of mafia like organised catholics. You can have religion without the say so of any man or woman, if women were allowed have a say that is ;).


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    #36
    Shea O'Meara
    Closed Accounts Posts: 960 ✭✭✭Shea O'Meara


    creedp wrote: »
    I absolutely agree but when I hear people saying that it is beyond comprehension that someone would know about child abuse and not report it ... all I can say is that I'm afraid it was all too common in years gone by for whatever reason. That doesn't make it right but it acknowledges that Irish society was/is deeply flawed when it comes to dealing with this issue.

    I feel the new class who took over during the foundation of the state still carried on business as before. A working class person or kid couldn't say a word against a civil servant or member of the church.
    As common as turning the blind eye was, the difference here is Brady had the power.


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    #37
    Min
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    Shea O'Meara wrote: »
    I feel the new class who took over during the foundation of the state still carried on business as before. A working class person or kid couldn't say a word against a civil servant or member of the church.
    As common as turning the blind eye was, the difference here is Brady had the power.

    No, the bishop of the time had the power.


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    #38
    juan.kerr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,766 ✭✭✭juan.kerr


    Regardless of the beliefs of Gilmore and Quinn, the catholic church has lost it's moral authority.

    These threads are a poor attempt to deflect attention.


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    #39
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Min wrote: »
    No, the bishop of the time had the power.

    Brady was unable to contact the Gardai?


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    #40
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Min wrote: »
    No, the bishop of the time had the power.
    "I was only following orders" didn't wash in Nuremberg. It definitely will not wash for Brady.


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    #41
    Min
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    juan.kerr wrote: »
    Regardless of the beliefs of Gilmore and Quinn, the catholic church has lost it's moral authority.

    These threads are a poor attempt to deflect attention.

    Actually it was mentioned on the Pat Kenny show that the high moral ground was a crowded place at the moment, and how many of these people who are calling for him to resign would want what they were involved in back in 1975 dragged up and examined.
    They referred to SF and Martin McGuinness who called on Cardinal Brady to resign.
    I just Eamon Gilmore and his support of abusive regimes and his active support of the official IRA even after they had murdered people.

    It is fine for people to stand on the high moral ground and talk about 1975, if they were not involved or supporting a group(s) who murdered people.


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    #42
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Min wrote: »
    Actually it was ................) who murdered people.

    As asked earlier - Are all "sinners" denied the ability to call on others to cease their sinning?
    Min wrote:
    Actually it was mentioned on the Pat Kenny show that the high moral ground was a crowded place at the moment, and how many of these people who are calling for him to resign would want what they were involved in back in 1975 dragged up and examined.

    So be quiet about the bad things that others have been involved in, in case somebody mentions your past.

    That's not really a very solid platform for a Cardinal of the Church to base his moral authority on, is it?


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    #43
    Ash.J.Williams
    Registered Users Posts: 20,929 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams


    Min wrote: »
    I am saying Eamon Gilmore is saying that Cardinal Brady should resign because of what he knew back in 1975.
    This is the same person who back then to the very late 1980's was supporting communist regimes and are we to believe that Gilmore didn't know the horrific abuses these regimes were involved in?

    If Gilmore believes the cardinal should resign, then surely Gilmore should also resign for the abuses he knew about but continued to support.
    He can't claim he was ignorant of the abuses done by communist regimes, just as Cardinal Brady cannot claim he was ignorant of the abuses caused by Brendan Smyth.

    Why did Eamon Gilmore continue to support the abusive communists, until the Soviet Union collapsed?

    I am just against double standards by our politicians and Gilmore is one of the biggest hypocrites in this country and that is some doing.
    Are you saying that Gilmore, during the 80's, withheld information that could have imprisoned leaders of foreign regimes, thus saving the lives of millions?


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    #44
    harney
    Registered Users Posts: 1,215 ✭✭✭harney


    Min wrote: »
    Well look at Eamon Gilmore's best friends in China and what they are doing, policy from the communist party of China.
    Forced abortion is not child abuse - pictures and I could post them but won't - show the remains of a 9 month old foetus/baby that was induced and who was given an injection into the brain so the child would die. The mother says she was taken off the street, and taken to the place where she was forced to have the abortion, she said her baby was born alive and cried before it died.
    Is this not child abuse?

    Two questions:

    1 Who are these "best friends" you mention?

    2 If the child was born, how is that abortion?

    I would have thought that was murder rather than either abortion or child abuse.


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    #45
    juan.kerr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,766 ✭✭✭juan.kerr


    Min wrote: »
    Actually it was mentioned on the Pat Kenny show that the high moral ground was a crowded place at the moment, and how many of these people who are calling for him to resign would want what they were involved in back in 1975 dragged up and examined.
    They referred to SF and Martin McGuinness who called on Cardinal Brady to resign.
    I just Eamon Gilmore and his support of abusive regimes and his active support of the official IRA even after they had murdered people.

    It is fine for people to stand on the high moral ground and talk about 1975, if they were not involved or supporting a group(s) who murdered people.


    More deflection. Let's forget about Sinn Fein IRA and focus on Brady.


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    #46
    Min
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    Nodin wrote: »
    As asked earlier - Are all "sinners" denied the ability to call on others to cease their sinning?



    So be quiet about the bad things that others have been involved in, in case somebody mentions your past.

    That's not really a very solid platform for a Cardinal of the Church to base his moral authority on, is it?

    He without sin cast the first stone.

    No one is saying about being quiet about bad stuff that happened, just don't stand on the high moral ground when at the same time Eamon Gilmore was supporting radicals and extremists who were involved in crime upto the level of murder, regimes that caused great suffering. This is a man who continued to support these views upto the late 80s to early 90's when he couldn't claim ignorance to what the official IRA and the workers party were involved.
    This is what I am talking about, the high moral ground is not a place where Eamon Gilmore should be standing, when he has failed to deal with his own past and the shady goings on in the workers party and the illegal activities of the official IRA.
    Ash.J.Williams wrote: »
    Are you saying that Gilmore, during the 80's, withheld information that could have imprisoned leaders of foreign regimes, thus saving the lives of millions?

    He gave support to regimes who killed millions, he continued to supprt the official IRA after they murdered people, maybe he withheld this information from his own brain when he activitely supported all of these.
    harney wrote: »
    Two questions:

    1 Who are these "best friends" you mention?

    2 If the child was born, how is that abortion?

    I would have thought that was murder rather than either abortion or child abuse.

    1. In the past it was when his party, the workers party looked for money from the Soviet Union, China, North Korea, East Germany and so on. Now it is China who praises the Irish government for being anti-Catholic...well it was reported in a Chinese newspaper.

    2. The child was not born, it had it's head injected with poison while in the womb of this woman who was forced to have an abortion, then she was given drugs to induce contractions for it to be born, the unborn baby had not died before the drugs brought it into the world where it cried in pain before it died. I could post a link to the story with pictures but it would not be suitable.
    This is the kind of activity that the blind Chinese activist was protesting about before he was arrested and his family attacked, the Chinese government were not happy that this person is against forced abortions.

    juan.kerr wrote: »
    More deflection. Let's forget about Sinn Fein IRA and focus on Brady.

    No one is deflecting from anything, just the high moral ground is a dangerous place for a lot of people to be currently standing on.

    Martin McGuinness telling Cardinal Brady to resign over the past, well one could ask why is someone linked to a murder back in the past standing on the high moral ground over something in the past...

    This is what I am saying, the double standards being applied by politicians who say someone should resign over the past when they wouldn't resign over their own past.


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    #47
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Min wrote: »
    He without sin cast the first stone..

    Gilmore was not the first to cast a "stone" at Brady.
    Min wrote: »
    No one is saying about being quiet about bad stuff that happened, just don't stand on the high moral ground when at the same time Eamon Gilmore ..........
    ..


    What "high ground" is Gilmore assuming?
    Min wrote: »
    ..........was supporting radicals IRA and the workers party were involved.
    ..

    Why do you keep repeating in detail the same tirade against Gilmore in every post? It should be obvious that I've read same earlier, as have others.


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    #48
    Lockstep
    Registered Users Posts: 9,029 ✭✭✭Lockstep


    Would I be right in guessing you're a Catholic Min?

    You seem unfazed by Brady and yet highly critical of Gilmore.


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    #49
    Wild Bill
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭Wild Bill


    Couldn't care less about Brady.

    But the hypocrisy of a goon who lied his way into Government and was a former pal of North Korea is revolting.

    The sooner Gilmore is brought to account, the sooner we can set about restoring the country.


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    #50
    Gurgle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,064 ✭✭✭Gurgle


    Min wrote: »
    He without sin cast the first stone.
    Would it be inaccurate to accuse you of 'casting stones' at Mr Gilmore?

    Are you, by your own criteria, qualified?
    (i.e. perfect, as was the point I believe your messiah was making at the time)


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    #51
    Sarky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31,967 ✭✭✭✭Sarky


    Wild Bill wrote: »
    The sooner Gilmore is brought to account, the sooner we can set about restoring the country.

    Yeah, let's go back to our good old traditional values, say from the 70's, where people would know what was going on, and choose not to... Uh, Where families would hush up abuse for fear of... Er, I mean, where nobody questioned a priest's authority because they...

    Well crap.


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    #52
    Wild Bill
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭Wild Bill


    Sarky wrote: »
    Yeah, let's go back to our good old traditional values, say from the 70's, where people would know what was going on, and choose not to... Uh, Where families would hush up abuse for fear of... Er, I mean, where nobody questioned a priest's authority because they...

    Well crap.

    Yeah, and if the Gilmore of the 1970s and 1980s had had his way we'd be living in a North Korean type state today.

    That would be soo much better, wouldn't it?


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    #53
    Sarky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31,967 ✭✭✭✭Sarky


    North Korean? Really? You think any Irish politician of the last 50 years has the cunning and charisma and military force to set up a totalitarian cult of personality? With the typical Irish person looking for any excuse to insult someone who gets even a little bit too big for their boots?

    Nobody's ever tried actual communism, so I guess we'll never know. Although I think it's reasonable to suspect that the reduction in power the catholic church would have had would make covering up the child abuse far more difficult, so there'd be that at least. Or is child abuse a price we just have to pay for democracy and freedom and stuff?


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    #54
    Wild Bill
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭Wild Bill


    Sarky wrote: »
    North Korean? Really? You think any Irish politician of the last 50 years has the cunning and charisma and military force to set up a totalitarian cult of personality?

    No! That's why Gilmore did a u-turn when the Berlin Wall fell. It was a grim time for the Stickies!
    Nobody's ever tried actual communism, so I guess we'll never know.

    They've tried it all right - but it's like Christianity; a daft idea given what evolution has hard-wired into human nature.
    Or is child abuse a price we just have to pay for democracy and freedom and stuff?

    (Relative) Freedom comes with a price tag. Let's not cry about it. :cool:


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    #55
    mistermouse
    Registered Users Posts: 323 ✭✭mistermouse


    I agree with some of the sentiment, to the degree that people in power should look in their own wardrobes before bringing skeletons into the Dail
    Gilmore's failure in Government see's him looking at other ways to deflect attention from other issues also

    But, as a member of the Catholic Church, a high ranking member at that, the Cardinal must see he made a major failing at the time. Irrelevant of how things were done back then, and lots of things were done badly, he should show that he accepts his failings then, failings that are should have seemed relevant then but should have been and are now

    He should not resign to appease the likes of Gilmore or any Politician as they have all plenty to repent, but he should resign as he failed those children then, and can no way justify it.

    He also is doing serious damage to the Church he belongs to by holding onto power. Politicians crave and do everything to keep power, churchmen should know better than to seek to hold power at all costs


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    #56
    donaghs
    Registered Users Posts: 2,691 ✭✭✭donaghs


    Let's separate out the two issues. Clearly Brady has questions to answer.

    Soo does Gilmore. But don't think Gilmore's ideological "crimes" are anywhere near as bad as what Brady is implicated in.

    Gilmore though is a hypocrite, who did align himself with some fairly evil people when everyone else knew better. Maybe once he did believe in that stuff. But what is he now? A careerist wind-bag with nothing of any substance to say or do. His comments on Brady strike me as the words of a politician reading the popular mood, not speaking from the heart.


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    #57
    itzme
    Registered Users Posts: 338 ✭✭itzme


    Min wrote: »
    Eamon Gilmore in the Dáil today:
    "As far as your question about the Government's position in relation to Cardinal Brady is concerned, let me say this, I have always believed in the separation of church and state,”
    “I think it is the job of government and of the State to enact out laws and to ensure that those laws apply to everybody, whether they belong to a church or not.
    "But it is my own personal view that anybody who did not deal with the scale of the abuse that we have seen in this case should not hold a position of authority."

    ok that is fine for Eamon Gilmore to say, but if we apply the logic of Eamon Gilmore, are we to believe that Gilmore didn't know about the horrific effects of communism on people? How millions of people died under these regimes, how men, women and children were abused under these regimes?

    Surely Eamon Gilmore should resign if we are to judge people on what they did in the past given the knowledge they have.
    Did Eamon Gilmore not know that communism is responsible for horrific abuse?
    Surely he wouldn't be inviting over his best friends from China who still force women to have abortions and are involved in a lot of human rights abuses.
    We have seen in the past week how a blind Chinese human rights activist escaped from house arrest. He was being held under house arrest for supporting women who were forced to have abortions by the Chinese regime.

    For Eamon Gilmore, it all depends on whose abuse is acceptable when it comes to him saying "But it is my own personal view that anybody who did not deal with the scale of the abuse that we have seen in this case should not hold a position of authority"

    Can I just say thank you Min, after a decently long day I did need a good laugh. I honestly (no kidding) think you could have the spark of a playwright, that level of satire desires an audience


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    #58
    Wild Bill
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭Wild Bill


    donaghs wrote: »

    Soo does Gilmore. But don't think Gilmore's ideological "crimes" are anywhere near as bad as what Brady is implicated in.

    Actually, they are a lot worse.


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