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Attack on female Garda in Dublin

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Comments

  • #92
    Whitewater-AGS
    Registered Users Posts: 315 ✭✭Whitewater-AGS


    Terrontress wrote: »
    First of all, I did not mention anything about it being someone I know. I am sure nobody at the scene knew the Garda in question personally.

    As for what I'd be prepared to do, I have given three situations above where I think it best to await people with expert training and could think of dozens more. History is littered with people who have endangered themselves and others or have made the situation worse by blundering cack-handed into a situation that they are not qualified to.

    Given your responses so far, I hope you never, ever come upon anyone in trouble.

    And every member on here can give you examples of Gardai and civi's saving people lives while doing act's which they are not "trained" for and in this assault your placing far to much emphisis on training, I already pointed out your misconception regarding self defence training. If I had come across this incident on or off duty I wouldn't be applying arm locks and queensbury rules dont apply.


  • #93
    donvito99
    Registered Users Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭donvito99


    Jesus Im away for 10 days and something awful happens. Just hope the scum get the book thrown at them.


  • #94
    bigass
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22 ✭bigass


    Whitewater-AGS wrote: »
    And every member on here can give you examples of Gardai and civi's saving people lives while doing act's which they are not "trained" for and in this assault your placing far to much emphisis on training, I already pointed out your misconception regarding self defence training. If I had come across this incident on or off duty I wouldn't be applying arm locks and queensbury rules dont apply.

    +1
    I'd like to think regardless of my profession, I would show a bit of humanity to any person that needed help.
    I would do it on or off duty, wether it be a member, doctor, binman etc.


  • #95
    Terrontress
    Registered Users Posts: 3,888 ✭✭✭Terrontress


    bigass wrote: »
    +1
    I'd like to think regardless of my profession, I would show a bit of humanity to any person that needed help.
    I would do it on or off duty, wether it be a member, doctor, binman etc.

    I'd like to think you would as well. But getting into a physical altercation with idiots that have already shown complete disregard for the wellbeing of someone else is not the way to do it.

    As I said before, would you hop in to help an electrical engineer mend the DART line?


  • #96
    ~me~
    Closed Accounts Posts: 324 ✭✭~me~


    a few years ago i was jumped on for being a 'slut' (ie. was going out with the ex of some scumbags friend) there was ten or eleven girls and guys around at the time when four girls came up and did the attacking, not one of the bystanders stepped in to help, yet once the girls had left they were falling over themselves to 'help'- its really sick how people are so scared to stand up to young girls. and whats even worse is the guys kept saying 'i woulda helped but you know, guys cant hit girls' **** that, they're not girls they're animals.
    god love that poor woman just doing her job. hope she gets better soon,and that shes not disheartened by this group of scum.


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  • #97
    bigass
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22 ✭bigass


    Terrontress wrote: »
    I'd like to think you would as well. But getting into a physical altercation with idiots that have already shown complete disregard for the wellbeing of someone else is not the way to do it.

    As I said before, would you hop in to help an electrical engineer mend the DART line?


    I do understand your logic, but it's also very hard to watch a person let alone a colleague being hurt.
    While I very much for calling the gardai in these situations, but to the extreme she got hurt I would have got involved.


  • #98
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,181 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    I guess here's the other point to consider. A Garda is presumably indemnified by the State. If (s)he should accidently cause serious injury in the course of defending himself, that Garda will not have to pay out of pocket, it comes from the State's coffers. Similarly, should the Garda be injured, I presume the State will provide all the best healthcare it can provide. Yet if Joe Public wades in to help out the Gard, he can presumably be legally liable for any consequences (regardless of intent) and should he be injured, I can't see the State providing more than the basic minimum towards his medical treatment. Or allow him to be recompensed if, in the ensuing scuffle, his mobile 'phone gets broken, or his wallet nicked or whatever. Ultimately the detrements to getting involved do seem to outweigh the public benefits. I've no doubt that the DPP and the Gards would side with Joe Public in such a case, but the criminal issue is only part of the problem.

    NTM


  • #99
    Trojan911
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Trojan911


    Manic Moran wrote: »
    I guess here's the other point to consider. A Garda is presumably indemnified by the State. If (s)he should accidently cause serious injury in the course of defending himself, that Garda will not have to pay out of pocket, it comes from the State's coffers. Similarly, should the Garda be injured, I presume the State will provide all the best healthcare it can provide. Yet if Joe Public wades in to help out the Gard, he can presumably be legally liable for any consequences (regardless of intent) and should he be injured, I can't see the State providing more than the basic minimum towards his medical treatment. Or allow him to be recompensed if, in the ensuing scuffle, his mobile 'phone gets broken, or his wallet nicked or whatever. Ultimately the detrements to getting involved do seem to outweigh the public benefits. I've no doubt that the DPP and the Gards would side with Joe Public in such a case, but the criminal issue is only part of the problem.

    NTM

    That just about sums it up, but the officer would also have to answer to excessive force if it were alleged and could possibly face prosecution etc.


  • #100
    Relevant
    Closed Accounts Posts: 474 ✭✭Relevant


    I don't understand how this thread has turned in to a debate about what liabilities you would face. The facts of the matter are this, a person (who happened to be female and a garda) was being beaten in broad daylight in front of a number of people. NOBODY helped. I would like to think that if i was getting the ****e knocked out of me someone would help me.

    While I am aware of the risks involved in entering an altercation i would not be able to stand idly by while this went on.
    And before anyone asks i have stepped in on altercations in the past


  • #101
    TheNog
    Registered Users Posts: 4,160 ✭✭✭TheNog


    I think we should all take into consideration the fact that many people would not be used to seeing such an attack carried out on another and therefore it would be safe to assume that some people would have been in a state of shock.

    It is different for members of any emergency personnel cos we are used to seeing incidents like this so it is easier for us not to be shocked and to help out.

    Food for thought


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  • #102
    Yareli Obedient Mirage
    Posts: 0 ✭ Yareli Obedient Mirage


    Terrontress wrote: »
    Obviously the situation determines what action you take.

    You should not stop and try to treat someone who has come off a motorcycle and may have a spinal injury. You should leave it to those trained to do so.

    You should not go out into a swollen river to rescue someone who is being dragged away. You should leave it to those trained to do so.

    You should not get physically involved with three people who are willing to bite people on the face. You should leave it to those trained to do so.

    Nice to know you can be relied upon to offer assistance when needed. In a motorcycle accident you could at least go over to the injured party and find out their condition. Are they concious/unconcious. Ask where they are injured. Pass this on to the emergency services. It all helps.

    People are obviously not going to jump into a swollen river. They may however throw a lifebouy if there is one there, or another suitable device. Again you can phone emergency services with information on the location of the person in trouble.

    You sound like one of those people who stood around and didn't help that Garda. Maybe you should just stay indoors so you never have to worry about being forced to make a decision to help somebody.


  • #103
    Yareli Obedient Mirage
    Posts: 0 ✭ Yareli Obedient Mirage


    Trojan911 wrote: »
    That's good to hear, however, it's a shame these safety issues could not be prioritised. How many more serious assaults are going to occur between now and when CS is issued?

    I have no stats but I would put pound to penny that it would cost the State more with payouts to injured officers and officers being off duty (long term sick) than it would to payout for CS spray or at least get a lot more of it distributed out to frontline officers & when I say frontline I mean those who are not permanently in offices, CCTV rooms or court duty etc.

    What excactly are the GRA doing anyway? Why are they not making this their No1: priority, or are they? I haven't heard any noise coming from their camp for a while.

    To a degree, I'm not blaming Factna Murphy, however, he is in the top position, akin to a politician, but still nearly two years later in office no sign of CS, just the usual talk.

    Sure, the vests, ASP's & cuffs have been distributed but in my opinion, the CS & radio system should have been included in that package as they all fall into the safety bracket.

    It is clear to me that the government couldn't really give a monkeys because if they did AGS would be sufficiently equipped. The back burner springs to mind.

    Trojan, if you were in the Met when all their safety equipment was issued then maybe you would have noticed that members over there were still attacked and are still being attacked. Here is an example.

    And remember, this Garda had her baton but obviously didn't get a chance to draw it. She went to talk to the group and they attacked her then. Even if she had CS spray I don't think she would have had a chance to use it.

    The only way of stopping the attack was for one or more of the spineless members of the public to step in and help. If it was three gardai restraining a violent prisoner you could guarentee that the members of the public would be trying to step in then.

    And the spray was only announced last october/november. it takes a while to tender and set up training and supply


  • #104
    A Primal Nut
    Registered Users Posts: 5,949 ✭✭✭A Primal Nut


    Is there any possibility they are recording it to ensure there would be evidence? It does seem incredible nobody intervened though.


  • #105
    Yareli Obedient Mirage
    Posts: 0 ✭ Yareli Obedient Mirage


    A Primal Nut wrote: »
    Is there any possibility they are recording it to ensure there would be evidence? It does seem incredible nobody intervened though.

    You would hope it would be for that but I doubt it. And if they were it would only be needed if the attackers got away. If the people had of stepped in then she may not have received as many injuries as she did.


  • #106
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,181 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    I don't understand how this thread has turned in to a debate about what liabilities you would face. The facts of the matter are this, a person (who happened to be female and a garda) was being beaten in broad daylight in front of a number of people. NOBODY helped. I would like to think that if i was getting the ****e knocked out of me someone would help me.

    The two are partially interrelated. There is a perception in the public mind, somewhat justified, in my view, that the risk/reward benefits very definitely weigh in favour of not stepping in. Until the public at large is convinced that acting with the best intent will not only be accepted, but actively supported, it is unsurprising that people will think thrice before getting involved. Yet how many times do we hear senior police or politican types on the TV say "when Blank happens, shut up, do nothing, and let professionals handle it?" The conditioning of the Sheeple is going the other way.

    NTM


  • #107
    Trojan911
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Trojan911


    foreign wrote: »
    Trojan, if you were in the Met when all their safety equipment was issued then maybe you would have noticed that members over there were still attacked and are still being attacked. Here is an example.

    Of course they will still be attacked, that will never stop and I never suggested it for one moment. A person would have to be a numb nut to think otherwise. CS will considerably reduce these attacks, I know because I have seen the results of even drawing the spray. They have stopped dead in their tracks. I speak from experience, can you?

    Well, if you are a serving Garda come back to me some time after you have been issued with spray and tell me otherwise (you may be waiting a long time though).
    foreign wrote: »
    And remember, this Garda had her baton but obviously didn't get a chance to draw it. She went to talk to the group and they attacked her then. Even if she had CS spray I don't think she would have had a chance to use it.

    We will never know will we. I can only say on one occasion I was not carrying my spray one night in plain clothes and I was barely able to get to my PR to hit the emer button and call for assistance, my error which was not repeated.
    foreign wrote: »
    The only way of stopping the attack was for one or more of the spineless members of the public to step in and help. If it was three gardai restraining a violent prisoner you could guarentee that the members of the public would be trying to step in then.

    I agree to a certain extent, however, not everyone chooses to help in this way as I have stated in a previous post and as TheNog correctly points out, people may have been in a state of shock at seeing such violence before them. If you were a Garda you would know this also or should have some inkling.
    foreign wrote: »
    And the spray was only announced last october/november. it takes a while to tender and set up training and supply

    I know, I've been there fella. But the government need to pull their fingers out PDQ in my opinion and the GRA need to be shouting more from their nice offices. This should have been actioned years ago not last year.

    As for the "Example" you posted above well you are looking at the ultimate of slag that got off and the wonderful British Justice System we were battling against. But hey, that's the laws of the land...

    Have a nice day....


  • #108
    currythis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 266 ✭✭currythis


    I think its pretty disgusting that people just stood by and watched this happen in broad daylight.
    I get my bus on Aston Quay every evening and there is a lot of people from the area's where the bus go's that wouldn't be too keen on the gardai which may or may not have something to do with nobody helping her.

    I 've been assaulted in town a few times and if it wasn't for the help of strangers I may have come out of the assaults a lot worse then I did so I cant wrap my head around the fact that nobody helped.

    I wish her a speedy recovery and hope the scum involved get prosecuted to the full extent of the law


  • #109
    Yareli Obedient Mirage
    Posts: 0 ✭ Yareli Obedient Mirage


    Trojan911 wrote: »
    Of course they will still be attacked, that will never stop and I never suggested it for one moment. A person would have to be a numb nut to think otherwise. CS will considerably reduce these attacks, I know because I have seen the results of even drawing the spray. They have stopped dead in their tracks. I speak from experience, can you?

    I've seen the results on TV too.

    Trojan911 wrote: »
    Well, if you are a serving Garda come back to me some time after you have been issued with spray and tell me otherwise (you may be waiting a long time though).

    I've been perfectly open about who I am and there are people here who can back that up.

    Trojan911 wrote: »
    I agree to a certain extent, however, not everyone chooses to help in this way as I have stated in a previous post and as TheNog correctly points out, people may have been in a state of shock at seeing such violence before them. If you were a Garda you would know this also or should have some inkling.

    My problem though is that there were so many people there. They can't all be suffering from shock.

    Trojan911 wrote: »
    As for the "Example" you posted above well you are looking at the ultimate of slag that got off and the wonderful British Justice System we were battling against. But hey, that's the laws of the land...

    My point about the example was to show an incident where there were two police officers both probably carrying spray but both ended up being punched.
    Trojan911 wrote: »
    Have a nice day....

    Did you work in the states as well?


  • #110
    goldie fish
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,195 ✭✭✭goldie fish


    I still can't believe that people are surprised at this. I was attacked while in blue in 1997, on Limericks O'Connell st, at 3.15 in the afternoon. I admit I'm male, but should it be any different? When I got th eupper hand,(by bouncing pal off passing car) and walked him to the station, a mamber of the general public decided to lodge a complaint about "a big brute of a garda beatin the daylights out of some poor young fella"(I was 5'10 at the time, with only a 32 inch waistline).
    Scumbags attack gardai, they don't care where or when. And the public don't care either, as long as said scumbag isnt attacking them.


  • #111
    Sully
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 24,056 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sully


    Fecking probationers. First they take our jobs, then they take our women, and now they are taking our fecking pepper spray? :(

    I don't see the need for things to be getting heated in here. Most of us are in similar lines of work or have similar goals, so everyone should be getting on. I don't personally agree with the shock theory as I would expect someone out of a large crowd step in and do something. Anything but stand there and record it for the craic. I have stepped in, usually when its a younger group, and broke up fights. I have reported fights and observed so I can be a witness or follow the attacker so the Guards can get him locked up. I wont just stand by and record it.

    Its a shame this isn't illegal. Not assisting should be an offense, especially the eejit recording it.


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  • #112
    Trojan911
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Trojan911


    foreign wrote: »
    I've been perfectly open about who I am and there are people here who can back that up.

    As have I, that explains your ignorance, like I said, come back to me when you have some experience and tell me otherwise.

    I served in the Met for eleven years working in several depts. If you can prove otherwise I'll glady accept any banning/infraction from Boards.ie. So until you can prove otherwise, and you won't, put up or ignore my posts as I have no interest in a flame war nor any of your childish ways.

    You have a lot to learn.


  • #113
    TheNog
    Registered Users Posts: 4,160 ✭✭✭TheNog


    foreign wrote: »
    I've seen the results on TV too.




    I've been perfectly open about who I am and there are people here who can back that up.




    My problem though is that there were so many people there. They can't all be suffering from shock.




    My point about the example was to show an incident where there were two police officers both probably carrying spray but both ended up being punched.



    Did you work in the states as well?
    Trojan911 wrote: »
    As have I, that explains your ignorance, like I said, come back to me when you have some experience and tell me otherwise.

    I served in the Met for eleven years working in several depts. If you can prove otherwise I'll glady accept any banning/infraction from Boards.ie. So until you can prove otherwise, and you won't, put up or ignore my posts as I have no interest in a flame war nor any of your childish ways.

    You have a lot to learn.

    Thats enough now please. Lets not go over board


  • #114
    civildefence
    Registered Users Posts: 474 ✭✭civildefence


    I worries me that nobody intervened, I believe its called the "bystander effect". Nobody intervenes because they think "someone else will". Funny thing is I wish I was there so I could have. Firstly to help fend off the scumbags, and secondly to reef the phones off the lowlifes who were videoing it and f*ck them into the Liffey.


  • #115
    Banter Joe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 384 ✭✭Banter Joe


    Clearly somebody should have helped out, that's a given.

    At the same time, when the Gardai themselves need protection from the scumbags things are really getting out of hand.

    ****ing scumbags.


  • #116
    civildefence
    Registered Users Posts: 474 ✭✭civildefence


    You think that'd happen as quick in America? Spain? Germany? No! Because people have a respectful fear for the police, in the knowledge that if they touch them, they're gonna get it. Unfortunately the pussyfoot attitude of our justice system doesn't allow for that here.


  • #117
    Trojan911
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Trojan911


    civildefence wrote: »
    and secondly to reef the phones off the lowlifes who were videoing it and f*ck them into the Liffey.

    What and chuck away potential evidence? That wouldn't be very wise.

    How do you know if even one of those filming it didn't offer up a statement after or indeed offer up the footage?

    You don't....


  • #118
    civildefence
    Registered Users Posts: 474 ✭✭civildefence


    Trojan911 wrote: »
    What and chuck away potential evidence? That wouldn't be very wise.

    How do you know if even one of those filming it didn't offer up a statement after or indeed offer up the footage?

    You don't....

    Do you REALLY think thats why they were filming it?


  • #119
    Morlar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    Thats a very upsetting story and I hope she gets well soon. I can only think that the crowd must have been made up of tourists or people with their families (in addition to the knackers filming it). I think I probably would have stepped in and did something. I suppose that sort of thing is always easy to say after the fact and from behind a keyboard but I do not think I would have watched it happen and did nothing - nor would I have walked away. I don't understand why nobody stepped in.


  • #120
    Terrontress
    Registered Users Posts: 3,888 ✭✭✭Terrontress


    Morlar wrote: »
    Thats a very upsetting story and I hope she gets well soon. I can only think that the crowd must have been made up of tourists or people with their families (in addition to the knackers filming it). I think I probably would have stepped in and did something. I suppose that sort of thing is always easy to say after the fact and from behind a keyboard but I do not think I would have watched it happen and did nothing - nor would I have walked away. I don't understand why nobody stepped in.

    As mentioned in a previous post, there was obviously quick back-up, given that the injuries were relatively minor and three people were arrested. Maybe that is why nobody stepped in.

    Maybe people watching didn't fancy getting their faces bitten either.

    Maybe if they had got injured like the cop their employer would not be so sympathetic with sick leave like the State is to Gardai.

    Maybe they thought they could be liable to prosecution if they used force on the criminals and didn't know the extent to which they could use force.


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  • #121
    Zambia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,333 ✭✭✭Zambia


    I can see the logic in your piont's but getting involved in anything involves a risk. The state makes no effort to tell citizens their rights in regard to these matters. In essence the standard line is call the police , let the police handle it etc. In 99 percent of cases this is exactly the thing to do.

    Sadly the 1 percent does happen and to put a message out there you can intervene and possibly should would muddy the waters to too large an extent. TheNog also made a very good piont that the more accustomed you are to seeing such violence the easier to can process the information and come up with a sensible course of action. Posters on this forum would be more aclimatised than most.

    However in a crowd described their should be at least one person capable of at least shouting "sketch" , "run the cops are coming", "stop". Anything that would stop the rain of blows on this officer.

    Because if you are in uniform and you try an restrain someone there is no end of running commentry.

    "He cant breathe" - Newsflash if they can scream abuse at me they can breathe
    "Youse are hurting him" - really ... Jesus lads the massage career is ruined
    "Look at youse it take three of you" - If we had another 3 there would be 6 of us this is not a boxing ring
    "Youse are breaking his arm, youse bleedin scumbags" - Sorry doctor didnt recognise you in civvies..


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