dog aggressive dog

DBB · 31-07-2011 10:29pm

DBB if you disagree with my posts just say so and keep your aggression to yourself, so now you need a third level degree to train a dog:)

First of all, do not confuse "aggression" for "being factual". Your statement about dogs being "feral" and that children are in danger was outrageous. That I took issue with that does not make me aggressive. You may not like that I disagree with much of what you've said, but that does not make me aggressive.
On the issue of qualifications, you have completely missed my point. It's just silly of you to suggest one needs a 3rd level degree to train a dog. But people who train people to train dogs should have the necessary credentials to do that. Not necessarily a degree, no, but relevant knowledge, experience, and preferably membership of a respected professional dog trainers' organisation.
However, as I said, I never suggested one would need a 3rd level degree to train dogs. What I said was that a behaviourist should have a relevant 3rd level qualification and necessary relevant experience. Being a behaviourist requires as much formal knowledge, proof of that knowledge, experience, membership of a professional body, and insurance, as any veterinary or paraveterinary professional must have.
I doubt of any human would consult an unqualified child psychologist if their kids required such services, or that anyone would go to an unqualified doctor for medical care. It is only right that the same should apply to animal behaviourists. It is a science, just like medicine and veterinary are. For an owner to know they're getting the best practitioners the industry has to offer, rather than stumbling upon a quack who takes their money and doesn't help the problem, is a vital step for the industry, and should not be ridiculed.

A few months there was an a bit on the paper telling us that
scientists have proven that dogs have emotions.
Yes I needed a scientest with a degree to tell me that one.
Maybe I need a dergree to under stand it to.

It is indeed true that scientists have shown a lot of things that we dog owners already knew. The scientists knew it too. But what you're facetiously missing is that the scientists have empirically tested the hypotheses and shown we were right in some cases, or wrong in others.
In other words, science has taken the information out of the realms of being an old wives' tale, and either shown it to be true or untrue.
Scoff if you like, that is how everything we know about all of the sciences, from chemistry to psychology, has come about.

celticcrash · 31-07-2011 10:37pm

And what about a family who cant afford an expensive scientist to
train their dog.

Shanao · 31-07-2011 10:38pm

Op, I would definitely get a new trainer in as soon as you can. There are too many people out there who call themselves behaviourists when they honestly seem to have no idea of what they're doing.

I recently met a girl with a dog aggressive labrador out walking, the dog had a halti, harness and a muzzle on, i was a bit WTF, and when I was about maybe 30 feet from her with my big fella, the dog starting barking like mad. She seemed pretty worried, stopped, walked in onto the grass off the road and told me to keep walking past. I told her no, to walk towards me while I turned big dog around and got him to sit at my side. The lab shut up the moment there was no eye contact with my guy, walked right up without a problem, had a good sniff off him and then calmed down. When I turned my fella around again, no problem, so i told her to praise him when he started to play nice and to take off the muzzle and let his leash loosen as she was holding him right next to her.
We ended up chatting for ages while the two dogs played (on lead of course) and she then told me she had spent nearly 300euro on a 'behaviourist' so far and had never seen the dog quieten down and approach another like that. I asked if the behaviourist had given her any insight into why the dog was dog aggressive and what was the solution, and her reply was 'No, he told me to change a few routines around the house but didn't tell me why he might be dog aggressive." I was kinda like, and you spent 300 on this guy, why?

For a lot of these behaviourists, it is money, money, money, unfortunately and then other trainers end up having to pick up the pieces afterwards.

celticcrash · 31-07-2011 10:41pm

<snip>

There is no need for rudeness, feel free to get your opinion across in an appropriate manner without berating other posters.

Shanao · 31-07-2011 10:45pm

paultf wrote: »

adrenalinjunkie,

Just out of curiosity, what is wrong with chicken based foods?

How did it affect your dog? And why is lamb/fish flavours better?

Chicken, beef and pork are the three major meats when it comes to dogs having allergic reactions, often the proteins aren't properly broken down by the body and run a bit rampant in the system. If the proteins aren't broken down properly, they can miss out on having the right levels of tryptophan (think that's what its called anyway), which is essential for producing seratonin (which has a calming affect). What we see as fear aggression can be linked in with the wrong diet.
Lamb and fish-based foods have the least allergic reactions of the meats used in pet foods so suit some dogs better.

I'm guessing this is what AJ was talking about.

celticcrash · 31-07-2011 10:46pm

Shanao did you get a third level degree from the English. or was it experence with dogs that natural you knew what to do.

star-pants · 31-07-2011 10:49pm

celticcrash wrote: »

DBB, Maybe the dumb working class should not have any dogs.
Climb down off your high horse and get a grip.

I suggest you please watch your tone

DBB · 31-07-2011 10:50pm

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

So yes they do try and get to higher spots than one another, they do fight when a new dog is introduced in order to establish their place, they do become more possessive of food when other dogs are around and they do respect those the consider higher than themselve. I dont think it even needs to be debated that these behaviours are real, its nature and its who they are(some more than others):)

The thing is Chris, that if you think about it, kids and adults often do the same! We may manifest their behaviours in humanesque ways, but the underlying reason for the behaviour is pretty much the same.
"Dominance" has become a thorny word, and the disagreements about it have spawned a lot of misundertstanding.
Every group-living, social animal has a hierarchy of some sort. That is not in question. However, it is how these hierarchies are maintained that people have problems understanding. Whilst humanising animal behaviour is often sniffed at, I think it is reasonable for us to view dog-dog relationships as not unlike those observed in human society. We don't try to get one over on people because we're trying to dominate them. We try to get one over on them because for whatever reason, it suits us better than not getting one over on them!
To illustrate, we observe protocol when greeting new humans we've never met before. But we have to learn this convention, we're not necessarily born with the knowledge that we should politely say hello, shake hands etc. Dogs are no different. They have a greeting ritual too, but they need to learn how to do this by appropriate early social encounters. If they don't, say if the dog was undersocialised as a pup, or as I suspect in OP's case, the dog had some scary social experiences as a pup (I wonder what those socialisation classes were like OP? A free-for-all by any chance? Pups running free and doig whatever they please?), they will tend not to learn the polite dog-greeting conventions, and this gets them into trouble as adult dogs. The resultant aggression may appear to a person that the dog is trying to be "dominant" over the other dog, but he's not. He's bricking himself and he's using the most natural means at his disposal to deal with the situation. Because most aggression is fear-based behaviour, using "dominance" techniques or rationale is potentially so harmful, because it is, by it's nature, an aggressive approach.
When it comes to humans, dogs don't for one moment view us as pack-mates, and our attempts to force supposed pack-rules on them serve to confuse dogs. I think it is more relevant to view the dog-owner relationship as a parental one. We guide the dog, we teach the dog which behaviours we like and which we don't, and at the end of the day, we're friends. This is not to say we treat them like humans: we do need to manipulate how we deal witht hem so that it's understandable to the dog, but it boils down to them same type of relationship.
Nobody would call a parental relationship one of dominance. It's one of, I suppose, benevolent leadership.

Shanao · 31-07-2011 10:52pm

celticcrash wrote: »

Shanao did you get a third level degree from the English. or was it experence with dogs that natural you knew what to do.

Funny you should say that because I actually did train in animal and canine behaviour, and obedience training, and one of the behaviourists doing the course was english actually. The other was irish, and honestly, I didn't think he was half as good. Especially when I found out afterwards that he did a training course after the one I took using choke chains!!

DBB · 31-07-2011 10:59pm

celticcrash wrote: »

And what about a family who cant afford an expensive scientist to
train their dog.

I will not make any patronising comments about what you have said Celticcrash. It would only belie ignorance to do so.
Many behaviourists will do a number of cases per year at reduced cost so that a cash-strapped owner can deal with their dog's behavioural problems: if it's the difference between a dog going to the pound/one way trip to the vet, and not, there is often help at hand. Certainly, any behaviourist who is working for the sake of the dog should offer such a solution.
Some charge outrageous, unjustifiable prices (cf Shanao's post above), but a quick glance through other qualified behaviourists' price lists shows they're similar in price for a consultation to an average trip to the vet, but you get them for a 2+ hour consultation.
In addition, it has already been posted, some insurance policies cover behavioural consultations too.

Chris_Heilong · 31-07-2011 11:05pm

DBB wrote: »

The thing is Chris, that if you think about it, kids and adults often do the same! We may manifest their behaviours in humanesque ways, but the underlying reason for the behaviour is pretty much the same.
"Dominance" has become a thorny word, and the disagreements about it have spawned a lot of misundertstanding.
Every group-living, social animal has a hierarchy of some sort. That is not in question. However, it is how these hierarchies are maintained that people have problems understanding. Whilst humanising animal behaviour is often sniffed at, I think it is reasonable for us to view dog-dog relationships as not unlike those observed in human society. We don't try to get one over on people because we're trying to dominate them. We try to get one over on them because for whatever reason, it suits us better than not getting one over on them!
To illustrate, we observe protocol when greeting new humans we've never met before. But we have to learn this convention, we're not necessarily born with the knowledge that we should politely say hello, shake hands etc. Dogs are no different. They have a greeting ritual too, but they need to learn how to do this by appropriate early social encounters. If they don't, say if the dog was undersocialised as a pup, or as I suspect in OP's case, the dog had some scary social experiences as a pup (I wonder what those socialisation classes were like OP? A free-for-all by any chance? Pups running free and doig whatever they please?), they will tend not to learn the polite dog-greeting conventions, and this gets them into trouble as adult dogs. The resultant aggression may appear to a person that the dog is trying to be "dominant" over the other dog, but he's not. He's bricking himself and he's using the most natural means at his disposal to deal with the situation. Because most aggression is fear-based behaviour, using "dominance" techniques or rationale is potentially so harmful, because it is, by it's nature, an aggressive approach.
When it comes to humans, dogs don't for one moment view us as pack-mates, and our attempts to force supposed pack-rules on them serve to confuse dogs. I think it is more relevant to view the dog-owner relationship as a parental one. We guide the dog, we teach the dog which behaviours we like and which we don't, and at the end of the day, we're friends. This is not to say we treat them like humans: we do need to manipulate how we deal witht hem so that it's understandable to the dog, but it boils down to them same type of relationship.
Nobody would call a parental relationship one of dominance. It's one of, I suppose, benevolent leadership.

Nicely put, it does seem like its the human over dog dominance you disagree with and so do I up to a point, but I do think we can give our dogs certain signals that the dog picks up on that would be fully understood dog to dog but human to dog might confuse matters, as one poster said about eye contact. Also I agree with you trainers putting everything down to dominance is just a lazy excuse for why a certain behavior is manifesting itself when sometimes it is something deeper like a traumatic event in the dogs past. There are still things I disagree with you on also but thats why we all have opinions.

celticcrash · 31-07-2011 11:07pm

DBB wrote: »

I will not make any patronising comments about what you have said Celticcrash. It would only belie ignorance to do so.
Many behaviourists will do a number of cases per year at reduced cost so that a cash-strapped owner can deal with their dog's behavioural problems: if it's the difference between a dog going to the pound/one way trip to the vet, and not, there is often help at hand. Certainly, any behaviourist who is working for the sake of the dog should offer such a solution.
Some charge outrageous, unjustifiable prices (cf Shanao's post above), but a quick glance through other qualified behaviourists' price lists shows they're similar in price for a consultation to an average trip to the vet, but you get them for a 2+ hour consultation.
In addition, it has already been posted, some insurance policies cover behavioural consultations too.

Even at that some people can about pay their morgage, never mind insure their dog, or a dog licence for that.

DBB · 31-07-2011 11:16pm

thats why we all have opinions

That is true, makes for a more interesting world!
I've just thought of a phrase I heard which I think helps to put things in perspective. That is: Dominance is a relationship, not a behaviour.
In other words, some dogs will be more pushy with certain dogs, but will utterly toe the line with others, depending on the relationship they have with each other. I'll bet there are loads of owners out there who can testify to this! Their dog goes berserk with some dogs, but is a flirty eejit with others!
Similarly, if an owner tends to set boundaries and stick to them, dogs will tend not to push their luck with them. But if someone else in the home tends to let the dog away with everything, that's the person who has trouble with the dog jumping all over them, barging past them, even growling at them if they go to move them off the sofa. The dog is not dominating this person, he's simply using the pushy behaviour he's learned works very well for this person in certain contexts. There is a critical difference here in how we perceive what the dog's mindset is.
I think the same is true of humans, and we see many examples of this in the parent-child relationship: we see kids who will always do a, b, or c for dad, but know they can push their luck with mam because she tends to give in more (and vice versa, kids will be good for mam on some things, but be little brats around dad on the same things).

piperh · 31-07-2011 11:18pm

I'm sorry i have nothing useful to add op other than reiterate what others have said about getting a new behaviourist to help and that i applaud you for not giving up on your dog as others may have done.

This post has made very interesting reading to hear differing views on what may cause dog on dog aggression and dominance. I am a firm believer in reward based training so dominance is not something i have or ever would consider but some posters have put across some very interesting views.

DBB · 31-07-2011 11:20pm

celticcrash wrote: »

Even at that some people can about pay their morgage, never mind insure their dog, or a dog licence for that.

But they can, I assume, pay for a vet if their dog gets sick? Or for the dog's food? If an owner can't pay €12.70 for their licence, or pay for a vet in the event of illness, I don't really understand how they can afford to keep a dog.

celticcrash · 31-07-2011 11:24pm

Good night all, I am talking the dogs out for a midnight stroll.
And thanks to all for your opinions, they have been enlighting.
Now I have something to chew on myself:)

paulgalway · 31-07-2011 11:43pm

On walks, our dog, Fox terrier X rescued dog, would either start barking and straining the lease; or sniff other dogs and then start barking and snapping.

I forget where I saw it suggested, but I now use a water bottle (squirt type). When she starts to show aggressive interest in another dog, she gets a squirt of water at the back of her head. she is now less likely to go for other dogs. At this stage, I only have to shake the water bottle and she behaves.

LucyBliss · 01-08-2011 12:27am

I used to absolutely hate walking one of our dogs for a long time. He was a barking bonkers loo-lah and if he saw another dog, he'd nearly lose his life barking. I was tired of it and him, though he was good as gold in the house so we had a good indoor relationship, it was when I took him out that it all went to hell.
So my mother would walk him while I had the other two, and one day she decided that she was tired of me not being able to take him out and made me do it while she watched. And she told me that I came across like I was expecting him to do wrong and tensed when I saw another dog coming towards us. She's not a dog behaviourist or anything but she made the point that if I were on a field trip with my Brownie pack (who can be worse than any dog, bless their young excitable hearts!) would I be looking at them waiting to do something wrong. And I thought about it and realised that no, I wouldn't. I'd tell them what I expected of them, go out with that attitude and head off any bad behaviour before it came to pass by distracting them or telling them a firm no.
So that's what I do now with the boy Jack. I go for that walk as though I had the youngsters with me, with me in charge and giving directions. So when we see another dog coming, I speak to them so they hear my voice, they understand the command "with me!" and we keep going, regardless of what they see or hear. And now because I'm walking him more, he's a hundred times more receptive to me at home and now he likes to hang out with me more and I have to say, I love it.

That's just my experience, OP. As mentioned upthread, we can give signals to our dogs without realising it and I wish you the best of luck.

As for traits between dogs and kids, can I just say that having raised a puppy litter to eight weeks and then two pups for the past three years, sometimes I don't see the difference between them and my Brownie pack in terms of excitement levels and sheer mayhem especially if they haven't been out much in bad weather!

Cherry Blossom · 01-08-2011 1:44am

paultf wrote: »

adrenalinjunkie,

Just out of curiosity, what is wrong with chicken based foods?

How did it affect your dog?

I can best describe it as extreme hyperactivity, she would literally charge around the house at top speed crashing head-first into walls, furniture etc. it was at it's worst around an hour after meals.

paultf wrote: »

And why is lamb/fish flavours better?

I did a lot of research on-line and contacted breeders, breed-rescues etc. that deal with breeds that are prone to being food sensitive, all said that their dogs did best on lamb/fish diets. I also took advice from the nutritionist that works for Burns (Burns provide this service free of charge). I took her off chicken completely and did some little 'experiments' where I gave her a tiny piece of chicken in various forms (boiled, raw, freeze dried) and it was definitely the chicken.

Shanao wrote: »

Chicken, beef and pork are the three major meats when it comes to dogs having allergic reactions, often the proteins aren't properly broken down by the body and run a bit rampant in the system. If the proteins aren't broken down properly, they can miss out on having the right levels of tryptophan (think that's what its called anyway), which is essential for producing seratonin (which has a calming affect). What we see as fear aggression can be linked in with the wrong diet.
Lamb and fish-based foods have the least allergic reactions of the meats used in pet foods so suit some dogs better.

I'm guessing this is what AJ was talking about.

I didn't know there was a scientific explanation at all, I just went on trial and error and the experience and knowledge of others better placed than I was. Thanks for posting this though, I've learned something now from this thread, even if no one else has.

DBB · 01-08-2011 1:53am

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

I can best describe it as extreme hyperactivity, she would literally charge around the house at top speed crashing head-first into walls, furniture etc. it was at it's worst around an hour after meals.

This is very interesting!
I met a terrier several years ago who, if you gave him a pice of processed meat like sausage or ham, within an instant he would bite you.
He could have any piece of unprocessed meat, no problem.
But always, within a second of getting processed meat, bang!
I asked my vet about this, she felt it was entirely possible that there would be an extremely rapid neurological response to certain ingredients in some foods. This same dog has never bitten anybody since the astute owner made the connection.
I've come across a lot of dogs who changed very dramatically once the food had been changed, just like your dog AJ... it's a very interesting topic and one on which not enough research has been done yet.

Oranage2 · 01-08-2011 5:19am

I remember seeing a similar problem on dog whisperer and caesar milan would kick the dog every time it went for another dog. He tried to also keep the dogs attention and he have the dog positive re enforcements when he left the other dogs alone.

paultf · 01-08-2011 2:25pm

Shanao wrote: »

Chicken, beef and pork are the three major meats when it comes to dogs having allergic reactions, often the proteins aren't properly broken down by the body and run a bit rampant in the system. If the proteins aren't broken down properly, they can miss out on having the right levels of tryptophan (think that's what its called anyway), which is essential for producing seratonin (which has a calming affect). What we see as fear aggression can be linked in with the wrong diet.

Lamb and fish-based foods have the least allergic reactions of the meats used in pet foods so suit some dogs better.

I'm guessing this is what AJ was talking about.

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

I can best describe it as extreme hyperactivity, she would literally charge around the house at top speed crashing head-first into walls, furniture etc. it was at it's worst around an hour after meals.

I did a lot of research on-line and contacted breeders, breed-rescues etc. that deal with breeds that are prone to being food sensitive, all said that their dogs did best on lamb/fish diets. I also took advice from the nutritionist that works for Burns (Burns provide this service free of charge). I took her off chicken completely and did some little 'experiments' where I gave her a tiny piece of chicken in various forms (boiled, raw, freeze dried) and it was definitely the chicken.

I didn't know there was a scientific explanation at all, I just went on trial and error and the experience and knowledge of others better placed than I was. Thanks for posting this though, I've learned something now from this thread, even if no one else has.

AJ, Shaneo,

Thanks for that info. I suppose I was always aware of some foods causing an allergic reaction in dogs e.g. skin reaction or a dog being hyper. But I never thought about food causing problems with agression.

I feed my lot Burns chicken and brown rice. They like the food. During the day they are docile and sleep alot. But when we go for a walk they bark alot at other dogs - I suppose even been aggressive (I have them on a lead at all times). I wonder if I change to fish and brown rice would that make a difference? Must it check it out with Burns.

EDIT: just been in touch with Burns. I am at home with my lot 90% of the day so they always have company and during the day they are quite & sleep alot. So the Burns advisor reckons if they had a problem with the chicken flavour they would be causing problems during the day like being hyper. So I think they are OK on the chicken.

The Burns advisor also asked me about treats. I said I gave them a cream cracker now & again. She told me to cut these out because of the wheat which can cause behavourial problems.

Tranceypoo · 01-08-2011 5:14pm

celticcrash wrote: »

Hi Kristian
Dogs are feral, I hope you dont have kids in the house, because if
the dog attacked one of the kids you would not be able to control the
dog.

Not only is that unhelpful but it's also untrue and nonsensical!! Dogs are feral??!!

Tranceypoo · 01-08-2011 5:31pm

paultf wrote: »

AJ, Shaneo,

Thanks for that info. I suppose I was always aware of some foods causing an allergic reaction in dogs e.g. skin reaction or a dog being hyper. But I never thought about food causing problems with agression.

I feed my lot Burns chicken and brown rice. They like the food. During the day they are docile and sleep alot. But when we go for a walk they bark alot at other dogs - I suppose even been aggressive (I have them on a lead at all times). I wonder if I change to fish and brown rice would that make a difference? Must it check it out with Burns.

EDIT: just been in touch with Burns. I am at home with my lot 90% of the day so they always have company and during the day they are quite & sleep alot. So the Burns advisor reckons if they had a problem with the chicken flavour they would be causing problems during the day like being hyper. So I think they are OK on the chicken.

The Burns advisor also asked me about treats. I said I gave them a cream cracker now & again. She told me to cut these out because of the wheat which can cause behavourial problems.

Would you mind giving me the contact details for this Burns service?

paultf · 01-08-2011 6:12pm

Tranceypoo wrote: »

Would you mind giving me the contact details for this Burns service?

Burns customer service is in the UK - you have a choice of email, telephone or internet chat. I used the latter today - first time using that method - it was good & free!.

They provide a great service and I always find them very helpful.

http://burnspet.co.uk/misc/contact-burns-pet-nutrition.html

Discodog · 01-08-2011 6:37pm

I can't speak from experience in that I have never had an aggressive dog. But the number of people jumping on the training bandwagon is scary. My Vet's notice board is covered in training ads. There is no conceivable way that all of these people are qualified.

I have no doubt that a disreputable "trainer" who is getting €50 a time will hardly want to solve the problem in a hurry. It is just too easy for anyone to reel out a lot of crap, be believed & then keep the cash rolling in.

Any animal professional such as a Vet or behaviourist/trainer should be able to diagnose a problem & that diagnosis should be the same if you get a second opinion.

I would never allow a trainer to continue unless I was certain that they were doing the right thing & getting the right results. The danger is than the wrong action may actually make it worse & harder to resolve.

kristian12 · 01-08-2011 7:47pm

paulgalway wrote: »

On walks, our dog, Fox terrier X rescued dog, would either start barking and straining the lease; or sniff other dogs and then start barking and snapping.

I forget where I saw it suggested, but I now use a water bottle (squirt type). When she starts to show aggressive interest in another dog, she gets a squirt of water at the back of her head. she is now less likely to go for other dogs. At this stage, I only have to shake the water bottle and she behaves.

Thanks for the advice but if people are right and its fear based and made worse by the correction methods used by the behaviourist then i'd be worried this might add to it?

Thanks everyone for your advice and i'm going to call the behaviourists i was recommended on here tomorrow and talk it through with them and see if any of them are prepared to take over me and my guy. I'll certainly try changing his food and i'll keep you all posted as to how it turns out, as he's going nowhere.

LucyBliss · 01-08-2011 8:46pm

Best of luck, OP! Hopefully even something as small as changing the food will make him more receptive to you when out walking. When it comes together, walking your dogs can be a lovely experience. It can be very frustrating and worrying when the dog has a certain mindset going and can't/won't respond to your attempts to break through it.

liquoriceall · 01-08-2011 9:08pm

Just as an aside you might be interested in reading 'In Defence of Dogs' Im only about 50 pages in but its great got it off Amazon

DBB · 01-08-2011 9:32pm

kristian12 wrote: »

Thanks for the advice but if people are right and its fear based and made worse by the correction methods used by the behaviourist then i'd be worried this might add to it?

Hi Kristian,
Well spotted! This squirty bottle thing is all too regularly used to try to correct behaviour. It is another example of potential inhibition of behaviour, rather than curing the underlying emotion.
So, a dog who's anticipating a squirt of water on the neck/face/wherever, may repress the problem behaviour, but inside he's still in turmoil. But now, not only is he afraid of the other dog, he's got a squirt of water to contend with too!

dog aggressive dog

Comments