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Grassroots FF and the renewal of the party

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    #62
    Sand
    Registered Users Posts: 12,472 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    The problem I see for Fianna Fail (apart from being dead and not knowing it) is that rival parties and groups can engage with voters and explain what they would aspire to achieve in power. With Fianna Fail they face the challenge of attempting to explain what they would aspire to achieve whilst simultaneously having to explain why they didn't achieve it already in 14 years of unbroken political dominance and a once in a lifetime economic windfall. How much more opportunity does Fianna Fail need to implement their vision for the country?

    When we consider what Fianna Fail aspire to, based on their actions in power as opposed to their claims, it appears to be a bit of social reactionary appeasement, diverting state funds to their voters, getting their friends appointed to state bodies, relentlessly driving down moral standards in public office and running a populist economic policy. This is what Fianna Fail has engaged in for at least 40 years and longer and continued to engage in throughout the boom. Its hard to see whats to be renewed.

    If we look at "the renewal" its being carried out under the guidance of fresh faces like Micheal Martin and Willie O'Dea. If we check the "grassroots" Fianna Fail is going back to its the social reactionaries and the local organisations which operate candidates that don't rise beyond Jackie Healy Rae in terms of national vision. Basically, Fianna Fail is just packaging up more of the same and calling it renewal.

    All of this is hypothetical however - Fianna Fail is dead. It is toxic. When people consider their lost jobs, they think of Fianna Fail. When they consider emigrated children, they think of Fianna Fail. When they consider the banks and NAMA, they think of Fianna Fail. When people consider their mortgages, they think of Fianna Fail. When people consider corruption in public office and golden parachutes for failure, they think of Fianna Fail.

    Fianna Fail is never, ever, ever getting back up. Ever. Sinn Fein will move in and hoover up any votes Fianna Fail might hope their renewal will retrieve.


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    #63
    aoraki
    Registered Users Posts: 123 ✭✭aoraki


    Sand wrote: »
    All of this is hypothetical however - Fianna Fail is dead. It is toxic. When people consider their lost jobs, they think of Fianna Fail. When they consider emigrated children, they think of Fianna Fail. When they consider the banks and NAMA, they think of Fianna Fail. When people consider their mortgages, they think of Fianna Fail. When people consider corruption in public office and golden parachutes for failure, they think of Fianna Fail.

    Fianna Fail is never, ever, ever getting back up. Ever.

    B I N G O - you cannot put it any more succinctly than this. Fianna Fail are ffcuked, and the vast majority of people in this country see that as a very, very good thing.


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    #64
    Shea O'Meara
    Closed Accounts Posts: 960 ✭✭✭Shea O'Meara


    They'll be back They've a core membership and network which doesn't disapate as politics and the good of the country has little or nothing to do with it. It's party first.
    They just need wait a few years on enough floaters to get really browned off with the measures being brought in to, ironically, clean up after FFails last batch of moral and legal failings.
    Can anyone on here, FFail or not, see no corruption or fraudulant selfish behaviour coming to light after we get through the next FFail wave of snake oil salesmen? It's a guarantee at this stage.
    A straight FFail government would be an anomaly, that's a cold fact which cannot be denied by any FFail family member.


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    #65
    goat2
    Registered Users Posts: 4,939 ✭✭✭goat2


    are those of the fine gael party along with labour also without sin,
    there is this new in fg who went around canvassing that he was taking half wage when he got in, there was a catch, he got his first cousin and wife grand cushy jobs within weeks and we have heard nothing else of him


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    #66
    irishdude11
    Registered Users Posts: 377 ✭✭irishdude11


    goat2 wrote: »
    are those of the fine gael party along with labour also without sin,
    there is this new in fg who went around canvassing that he was taking half wage when he got in, there was a catch, he got his first cousin and wife grand cushy jobs within weeks and we have heard nothing else of him

    Come back to me when FG have destroyed the country's finances to the tune of 100 billion. As bad and all as FG/Lab are, they have a very very very long way to go before even get close to FF's incredible level of corruption and incompetence.


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    #67
    goat2
    Registered Users Posts: 4,939 ✭✭✭goat2


    irishdude11 wrote: »
    Come back to me when FG have destroyed the country's finances to the tune of 100 billion. As bad and all as FG/Lab are, they have a very very very long way to go before even get close to FF's incredible level of corruption and incompetence.
    we were all blaming mary harney for the trollies on corridors, fg had promised they would improve that, it is gone downhill and the new man at the helm has loads of advisors to boot,
    look at all the people out of work, people in small business cannot get overdrafts from banks, having to let their good workers go.


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    #68
    Sand
    Registered Users Posts: 12,472 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    goat2 wrote: »
    are those of the fine gael party along with labour also without sin,
    there is this new in fg who went around canvassing that he was taking half wage when he got in, there was a catch, he got his first cousin and wife grand cushy jobs within weeks and we have heard nothing else of him

    Clearly the answer is to vote Fianna Fail back in to restore ethics in public office!

    Nope, Fine Gael and Labour are also completely sinful - Labour are joined at the hip with various public sector unions and insiders, whilst Fine Gael are generally cut from the same social reactionary/state theft cloth as Fianna Fail. The only thing Fianna Fail and Fine Gael disagree on is who won the civil war. And thus, who the spoils should go to.

    What the Irish public needs to learn to do is to relentlessly and ruthlessly punish incompetence and corruption in its representatives. Vote against your "new in fg" (wtf?) and when he comes round your way explain to him with diagrams and sock puppets exactly why you're doing so.

    The problem is, that the Irish public are not allowed to vote on national politics or national government. They vote on local popularity contests - people divide their vision of the local rep ("Ah shure, he does great work in the locality...") versus their vision of the party ("Shower of bastards!"). The problem is whip system means the local rep is simply a shill for the national party. The electoral system is illegitimate in that it divides the people from an opinion on the national government - politicians are then unfairly (to some degree) blamed for not having a national perspective when their electoral survival is almost entirely dependent on winning a local popularity contest.

    Fianna Fail has thrived by appealing to this lowest common denominator gombeen man mentality. Hardened Fianna Failers are so cynical and jaded that they view this cyncism as being the virtue of practicality or the common touch, keeping close to the ground. Churchill ( a man from whom no Fianna Failer would ever dream of learning a lesson from ) once noted that if the public ever caught a politician keeping close to the ground they would lose all respect for him.

    The problem for Fianna Fail is that they've been caught, badly caught, daydreaming about the common everyday "breakfast roll man" issues when the public wanted a government. They'll never recover from the contempt they are held in.


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    #69
    Fenian Army
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,483 ✭✭✭Fenian Army


    FROM a heartland of Fianna Fáil in deepest Mayo comes a sterling example of loyalty to a former local leader, Padraig Flynn, as members of the Castlebar cumann unanimously lauded the former minister and EU commissioner. Dismissing the severe finding of the Mahon Tribunal that Flynn had corruptly sought and received £50,000 from developer Tom Gilmartin, Councillor Blackie Gavin stated that this issue was a “private matter between himself and Tom Gilmartin”. That’s grand so.

    Blackie also wanted it recorded that Flynn had left a record of achievement that would never be equalled in the county. The cumann unanimously passed a motion of thanks and appreciation to Pee Flynn for his work on behalf of Castlebar and Mayo during his long years of service.

    Chairman Patrick McDonnell said that Pee had been responsible for Knock Airport, regional water and sewage schemes and lots of roads. Cumann members also expressed their regret at Pee’s post tribunal resignation from the party (before he could be expelled) in a show of solidarity that puts to shame the wishy-washy supporters of Bertie Ahern in Dublin Central. But what will Micheál Martin do about this act of defiance; expel them all?

    From the Phoenix.


    Some supporters go on and on about the "ordinary decent FF grassroots" and the need for FF to get back in touch with them and that the the rot was just a few bad eggs at the top. In my opinion the entire FF organisation is rotten from top to bottom and reports like this are doing nothing to help change my opinion.

    Where exactly is this "decent" grassroots? I havent seen it, have you? Its a myth.


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    #70
    steelcityblues
    Registered Users Posts: 4,630 ✭✭✭steelcityblues


    There isn't such a thing.

    They could have formed a breakaway party if they were so upset by the corruption of several of their senior figures, but I think with them blood is thicker than water.

    Look at O'Cuiv who is supposedly unhappy with today's FF, yet hasn't the balls to go and leave.


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    #71
    nuac
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,769 Mod ✭✭✭✭nuac


    Castlebar Fianna Fail has been a Flynn personal fiefdom since Flynn entered politics c1967.

    the effussive remarks should be considered in that context


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    #72
    Fenian Army
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,483 ✭✭✭Fenian Army


    Anyone fancy a laugh? Felt a bit bad laughing myself, these people are clearly delusional:

    FF member magazine, Cuisle, "The voice of the members"

    Edition One:
    http://www.scribd.com/doc/76133961/Cuisle-Edition-01

    The "What does Fianna Fáil mean to me?" Section is both amusing and depressing at the same time. Some excerpts:
    "However, with many of these young people living lavish lifestyles, they do not give Fianna Fáil credit for bringing our nation to the previous dizzying heights of the Celtic Tiger, which allowed them and their families to live in such a way."
    "Fianna Fáil, in my opinion, does not garner enough respect among young people as it should"
    "As a child, I remember our neighbour, the chairman
    of the local cumann, bringing our TD, to the door. Ours was one house wherein his vote was defnitely guaranteed. Fianna Fáil? It was the milk in our tea, the meat in our sandwich."

    Then there is the "Forgotten achievements" section! All thats been destroyed by FF. It seems to me that the FF grassroots, like those in Castlebar, are proud of FFs role in destroying this state.


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    #73
    steelcityblues
    Registered Users Posts: 4,630 ✭✭✭steelcityblues


    I love how Martin's 'five to six steps of renewal' say a lot without saying much. Typical FF speak.


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    #74
    mikemac1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,395 ✭✭✭✭mikemac1


    Rural/urban divide maybe

    I wonder if O'Cuiv would ever try to break away
    Interesting times


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    #75
    johngalway
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,271 ✭✭✭✭johngalway


    steelcityblues wrote: »
    Look at O'Cuiv who is supposedly unhappy with today's FF, yet hasn't the balls to go and leave.

    He won't leave because he's unimportant outside of FF and he knows it. Sure, there's lots of talk about how influential he is and his tour :rolleyes: of surrounding counties and how the grass roots like him.

    It's all talk. If it were real he'd have gone and done it already.


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    #76
    Dirk Gently
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,784 ✭✭✭Dirk Gently


    Fenian Army wrote: »
    Where exactly is this "decent" grassroots? I havent seen it, have you? Its a myth.
    "Decent" is just a nice word for primitive ignorant tribalism, perhaps not corrupt as that requires a level of consciousness. Decent grassroots is used to describe those who don't know any better.


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    #77
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Merged with existing thread on the topic.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #78
    RATM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,591 ✭✭✭RATM


    The problem for the FF grassroots is that most people in Ireland now see them as a bunch of gombeens and back slappers who encouraged, supported and congratulated the corrupt politicans above them. The very people who are supposed to renew the party are now hated by the majority of people in this country. Anyone who still supports FF after all that has happened is seen as not being able to think for themselves (and rightly so in my opinion), they are nothing more than sheep at the end of the day, devoid of thought and convictions.

    They have no ideals and no vision for Ireland, their rule was all about 'managing' catastrophies whilst enriching themselves. At no point in FF history did they ever embrace the concept of building strong institutions that would have strengthened the nation state, in fact nation building as a whole is alien to them. From Dev onwards it was corrupt as fcuk and the grassroots who are now left carrying the can know no other way- they're institutionalized to the corrupt nod and wink politics and are lost in the dark as they don't know any other way.

    FF members might think they had a superb election victory in 2007 but in reality 59% of Irish people did not vote for them. Today that figure is closer to 85%, i.e there is no way back for them whatsoever. When the older generation die off that 85% will rise to 95% and eventually they will fizzle out and merge with some other party.


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    #79
    Sierra Oscar
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,458 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    RATM wrote: »
    When the older generation die off that 85% will rise to 95% and eventually they will fizzle out and merge with some other party.

    It is funny when people bring up this myth about FF party support and it all deriving from people who are seemingly in their 80's. The actual statistical figures show that FF party support is consistent throughout all age groups - for example in the Red C poll during March 29th FF support was the same between the age bracket of 18 - 34 then it was in the 55+ age bracket. Furthermore opinion polls are showing that the fastest growing segment of FF support is in the 18 - 34 bracket.

    The figures are all easily accessible - I suggest you read up on them.


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    #80
    Mr.Micro
    Registered Users Posts: 5,336 ✭✭✭Mr.Micro


    Sierra Oscar wrote: »
    in the Red C poll during March 29th FF support was the same between the age bracket of 18 - 34. Furthermore opinion polls are showing that the fastest growing segment of FF support is in the 18 - 34 bracket.

    SO, can you suggest why FF support is growing in this age bracket?


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    #81
    Sand
    Registered Users Posts: 12,472 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    Mr.Micro wrote: »
    SO, can you suggest why FF support is growing in this age bracket?

    Id interject to guess that its declining much faster in all other age brackets - either by deaths or parents waving their children off at the airport...


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    #82
    Sierra Oscar
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,458 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    Sand wrote: »
    Id interject to guess that its declining much faster in all other age brackets - either by deaths or parents waving their children off at the airport...

    It is actually up slightly in all other age brackets.
    Mr.Micro wrote: »
    SO, can you suggest why FF support is growing in this age bracket?

    Not sure really. Support is lowest in the 34 - 55 age bracket - perhaps it has something to do with that section of the population having suffered the most with the downturn, especially if they were property buyers and the likes?


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    #83
    raymon
    Registered Users Posts: 2,774 ✭✭✭raymon


    Sierra Oscar wrote: »
    It is actually up slightly in all other age brackets.

    Another terrible result for FF today 17%!!!!! This is the grassroots.

    To read the articles in the FF weekly Newsletter ( Sunday Independent) , you would think that FF are turning a corner and that the government is near collapse.
    Anne Harris' article was a piece of comedy about what a great leader Michael Martin is .

    http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/anne-harris-ff-embarks-on-comeback-trail-3119617.html


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    #84
    conor.hogan.2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,246 ✭✭✭conor.hogan.2


    I will not support any TD if they are a member of FF. It says too much about their character if that is the party they align themselves with.


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    #85
    Sierra Oscar
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,458 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    raymon wrote: »
    Another terrible result for FF today 17%!!!!! This is the grassroots.

    Weren't you predicting that FF would be on 8% by now?

    :rolleyes:


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    #86
    raymon
    Registered Users Posts: 2,774 ✭✭✭raymon


    Sierra Oscar wrote: »
    Weren't you predicting that FF would be on 8% by now?

    :rolleyes:

    Yes , I was predicting lower support. I was wrong

    I cant see how they can poll 17% after what they did to the country.


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    #87
    RobbieTheRobber
    Registered Users Posts: 6,744 ✭✭✭RobbieTheRobber


    raymon wrote: »
    Another terrible result for FF today 17%!!!!! This is the grassroots.

    To read the articles in the FF weekly Newsletter ( Sunday Independent) , you would think that FF are turning a corner and that the government is near collapse.
    Anne Harris' article was a piece of comedy about what a great leader Michael Martin is .

    http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/anne-harris-ff-embarks-on-comeback-trail-3119617.html

    This article is wrtitten by someone who's ex husband was a seanad appointee by bertie ahern :rolleyes::rolleyes:

    I wish Ms Harris had preceeded the article with a small piece outlining how many times her family were guests at the fianna fail tent at the galway races.


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