Krav Maga

Good work Musashi, the debate was a tad one sided there and thats a good way to level the playing field!
Fair play to him for taking the time to respond. As for anonymous debate, I think I'm always clear as to who I am!

It did answer some questions I had about isoloated techniques and such that some of his students here didn't seem to be able to answer, and I knew I recognised that girl on TV3!

In any case, I hold to my opinion of primarily self-defence arts as requiring a certain mindset. I can't imagine the fun and positivity I get from training being the same in such an environment.

Just thought I'd check a couple of points Patrick made in his reply to me.

In addition to this I have also trained and qualified by Jim Wagner

http://www.jimwagnertraining.com/rbma/certified_schools.html#IRE

http://krav-maga.tripod.com/id13.html

I haven't found a list of RMCAT or FAST Defense instructors,but I see no reason why he should not also be certified in these.
I am impressed by his reply in that it wasn't pushing his classes or trying to say that Krav Maga is "The Holy Grail" of MA.He came across as rational and quite a nice guy.He was also not getting upset about the criticism levelled at his style, and seems willing to discuss the points raised.I would certainly like to see him take the time to post here again and participate on Boards, if he had the time.
I would also be quite a bit happier that he has real skills to pass on in his classes.While the jury seems to be out on Krav on a few other boards,where guys have taken the classes, the RMCAT training seems to be well received and accepted as a good way of training stress scenarios.
I haven't seen much about FAST Defense or STAB for that matter,but I will look into it.
I guess the only sure fire way to decide on this may be to actually try a class for ourselves,but getting the cash together for a once off seminar like this is a little off putting! Still, you never know what the future may hold.

In any case, I hold to my opinion of primarily self-defence arts as requiring a certain mindset. I can't imagine the fun and positivity I get from training being the same in such an environment.

I'd agree with that. I enjoy my TKD training,but I like having the options from WWII Combatives and CQB to go with it if things are starting to go badly wrong.It's not a nice thing to be watching people as potential assailants and having a list of drastic attacks to resort to.It's still better than wandering around oblivious and setting yourself up as a victim though!

OKay wait....You are judging something you've never done? Holy ****! That's great!


Lemem preface my little blurb by saying this: I have four pointless black belts of varying degrees in traditional martial arts. Why pointless? Because they are. Sure, I know fancy ****, but I won't have a snowball's chance in hell if I try to use 'em on the street! However, I began learning Krav Maga about a year ago, and it works ****in' great!! How do I know? Battle tested...by me! I lilve kinda a nasty life. Little while ago I was attacked...appareantly it's my fault for walking to the store, but I'm not here to argue that. I got away fine, but a little shaken (having a knife held to one's throat would scare just about anybody).

ya'll know very little about Krav Maga....and I bet you almost anything I can argue my art without care!! Krav is NOT a money making scheme. Think about it...how many Tae Kwon Do black belts are out there? Let's narrow it down and say in the U.S. alone. God...hell if I know. Now, what about Krav Maga? I can tell you that it's no more than 80. How the **** do you get off putting down an art that only requires a little bit of training before it becomes effective? It's certinally NOT an "art" (maybe I shouldn't reffer to it as that) like TKD or Kung Fu...it's SELF DEFENSE. It takes about 4 years to become a black belt in most martial arts, and at that point you're not even concidered proficent. After about a year in most Krav studio's they suggest you leave! Why? Because at that point you're good to go! They don't want to keep taking your money for three more years...unless, of course, you really wanna give it to them! Now, don't get me wrong, Krav has it's weak points, of course, but so does every art. I don't think I'm invincible, but I do think I'm better off now after a year in Krav than after four in Bushido Ryu, Shaolin Kempo, Taekwon Do, or Wing Chun!

Don't make snap judgments on ANY martial art untill you've tried it. You don't know the weaknesses, you don't know the strengths! You can't learn about a discipline by reading about it! You have to try it! And ya know what, after having tried over 15 martial arts (lost count....), and reaching >>minimum<< green belt, I think I know better than anybody just how important it is to TRY classes before you judge.

Chri*t ! Who touched your Carlsberg

Ryokossei wrote:

I have four pointless black belts of varying degrees in traditional martial arts. Why pointless? Because they are.

Don't blame the art or the instructors for putting you forward to BB gradings. You should have known there was somthing wrong and not have went for them.

Ryokossei wrote:

Sure, I know fancy ****, but I won't have a snowball's chance in hell if I try to use 'em on the street!

Why not? Were you not ever pressure testing what you were learning?? Again you just took things as were, and did not question.

Ryokossei wrote:

However, I began learning Krav Maga about a year ago, and it works ****in' great!! How do I know? Battle tested...by me! I lilve kinda a nasty life. Little while ago I was attacked...appareantly it's my fault for walking to the store, but I'm not here to argue that. I got away fine, but a little shaken (having a knife held to one's throat would scare just about anybody).

Please tell us more about this eye opening experience. That you tested your whole styles effectiveness in one encounter. (I'm glad you got out safe. By the way:D)

Ryokossei wrote:

Krav is NOT a money making scheme. Think about it...how many Tae Kwon Do black belts are out there?

Yes this a problem with most to the TMA's. But I'm sick of listening to people waff on about the problems with this TMA or that TMA, so they left it and found something else. Instead of staying with the art and changing it from the inside so others don't hit the same "wall" in there training.

Ryokossei wrote:

It's certinally NOT an "art" (maybe I shouldn't reffer to it as that) like TKD or Kung Fu...it's SELF DEFENSE.

All MA's should be self-defense. I hav'int seen KM in action, and don't pretend to know anything about it. But I bet it has a concept that goverens how you conduct a fight.( Trad TKD kick, kick, kick, punch, kick, / Judo grab, throw, lock, choke) get the idea ?? If it does then it is a style and don't kid yourself. The concepts of a style is what make it different to other MA's. Even if it's Cover, close, finish.

The prime example "Way of the intercepting Fist" says it all really about JKD. Although thats another thread.:D (But I don't think BL wanted it to be an art)

Ryokossei wrote:

Now, don't get me wrong, Krav has it's weak points, of course, but so does every art. I don't think I'm invincible, but I do think I'm better off now after a year in Krav than after four in Bushido Ryu, Shaolin Kempo, Taekwon Do, or Wing Chun!

Again that would be down to the apporach you took to those arts ?? But please tell us what you think KM's weak points are ?? As I thought it was pretty brill up till now

Ryokossei wrote:

Don't make snap judgments on ANY martial art untill you've tried it. You don't know the weaknesses, you don't know the strengths! You can't learn about a discipline by reading about it! You have to try it! And ya know what, after having tried over 15 martial arts (lost count....), and reaching >>minimum<< green belt, I think I know better than anybody just how important it is to TRY classes before you judge.

Again, how did you get all these BB's and colour blets, and not cop-on that the training was crap?? We all have 2 arms and two legs (and a head:D). So there is no really different way our bodies can move. The only difference is in what we do with those movements.

Jumping down a guys honest opinion, without thinking and discussing openly your own comments is a waist of time, and will not do anything for your cause.

Look at your style from the outside in, and open your eyes :eek:

I have four pointless black belts of varying degrees in traditional martial arts.

It takes about 4 years to become a black belt in most martial arts, and at that point you're not even concidered proficent.

after four in Bushido Ryu, Shaolin Kempo, Taekwon Do, or Wing Chun!

And ya know what, after having tried over 15 martial arts (lost count....), and reaching >>minimum<< green belt

Tae Kwon Do - black belt (3rd) (yeah...whoop-de-****in'-doo, right? Just like everybody else)
Kung Fu - Black - don't remember specifics
Wing Chung - Black (well...kinda...we didn't use belts, but I'm the equivalent of a black >.>)
Shaolin Kempo - Black...don't remember specifics.
Yeah...big ****in' deal, right? Everybody has black belts

I have seven green belts, in arts I no longer practice, four purple, and...hell...I don't remember the rest. I have really bad luck with schools. Most close down.

I'm testing for my Bushido Ryo black belt sometime soon....*thinks* well...I kinda already have it but...long story (my sensei has kinda taken too many blows to the head)

Krav Maga - Green belt (don't laugh...there are only four belts before you get to black, and green is the 3rd.) Personally, I'm very proud of this belt. I have put more work, effort, blood, sweat, and tears into this damn thing than all my crappy black belts combined! My last damned test spanned FOUR DAYS, nine hours each.....did hell on my body and sleep...but I got to miss school! *happy dance*

So how old are you and still in school? Assuming you took two styles at a time and are up to third Dan in TKD after four years to First Dan,all your other Dan Grades,all your coloured belts. I'm guessing you started training at Two years old? How is a two year olds opinion of any style valid to me?
If you were older and able to critique styles,what "school" did you miss for your Krav Maga Grading?
Don't come in here and insult the members please.

john123xyz wrote:

I did one of the weekend krav maga courses with Pat Cumiskey and it was okay. I haven't done anything before so I didn't know what to expect. Some of the others thought they were serious Bruce Lee's when the course was over and you could see a few of them develop chips on their shoulders within hours. I personally do not believe that I can suddenly defend myself against any eventually after this Krav Maga course. As for Pat, he was okay, he lacks control sometimes which can get him in trouble. Also, I hear he's actually never been in a fight before yet that's all he talks about. I wonder if Krav Maga would work for him? All in all I wouldn't do this course or train with him again. It was a very expensive 'interesting' activity.

John

Nice to see the other side of this. You describe what comes across from other krav maga posters here.
One query, why did you not take up the offer of your money back?

Dabhal

Hi all - is my first post here, so bare with me

My background - I did a KM course with Pat sometime last year in Dublin. The course was taught as one night a week over the course of 8 weeks (I think - can't remember the exact details to be honest). I have a background in Kickboxing, Thai Boxing and a bit of grapping, all of which I still train at a bit. Although being nothing special I was a comfortable enough martial artist. As those in the know will notice I didn't do what people call "traditional" or the pyjama martial arts, mainly sports and freestyle stuff.

The reason I did the KM course - When I was off travelling in Oz I was training in a gym doing some bag work, and I met this lad who was pulling out some serious intense moves. I got talking to him and he said he'd been studying KM in Oz for the last while. When I got back I looked into and did the course with Pat.

I thought the course was ok - it wasn't run the best and sometimes there was a lack of control going on from the teachers / participants, but to be honest if you put a group (about 25 in my case or so) of complete novices in a room, and within the first hour start teaching them heal-palms, it's always going to be like that. Some people have said it gave people a false sense of security they thought- I reckon it depends on the individual. There were quite a few people there that seemed very much into the aggresive side of it all. They probably have their reasons, but it is meant to be self-defence after all, which sometimes seemed to be missed on many participants. I remember one case in particular when we were practising getting out of headlocks, using any means possible and the guy I had in a headlock bit my side. I don't mean pretended to bite, I mean actually did it. The next day I had a nice big bruise there where I was biten. I'm not a wuss or anything close, just with a course like this you have no idea why people are learning it or what they are going to do with their new skills y'know?

I do think it's very hard to teach people something in 24 hours that they will remember for life. I also realise that this is the most time alot of people will dedicate to something like this. With that in mind they probably learn as much as they can in that time. In 5 years time how much of it will they remember, and even more importantly how much will be instinct? I don't really know.

My opinion - If all you have is 24 hours to learn a style such as KM, then you're going to learn a bit but will it be practical or are you fooling yourself? If the answer is no, then by all means looks into KM. If the answer is yes - there are plenty of other intense self defence courses about OR there are lots of modern martial arts that will help you defend yourself, especially if you cross-train and combine a few.

If I had to do it again, no I wouldn't do the KM course I did. It's nothing personal against Pat, I just felt that although it was intense, and hands on, in that period of time , and the way the course was taught - the skills imparted would not be long-term in my case.

Remember martial arts is not a knitting class. Regardless of system or style there is a chance you will get some sort of injury along the way.

Yeah, thats acceptable, but usually these injuries would be soft tissue or small bones. As you said, they'd go with the turf. What I certainly wouldn't expect is to come home with unhygenic bite marks on me, or have someone stick their finger in my eye.

Again IMO it all comes down to mindset. You say its aggression, but I know some pretty aggressive guys who would rip me apart in the ring or on the mat, and yes, on the street, and they don't resort to biting, eye-gouging, groin striking or any other "dirty tactics".

I'd bite your side if I could not get out of a head lock, Bites are a brilliant equalizer! A total "cut to the chase" technique.

Lets clear something up. "technique" : The systematic procedure by which a complex or scientific task is accomplished.
I hardly think biting somebody can fall into this category. A savage reaction perhaps, but a technique, I don't think so.

Also, as KM is for "THE STREET", if your attacker is wearing say, a leather jacket or any other item of medium to heavy clothing, even a couple of layers, your escape tactic of biting is now negated. Instead of biting somebody in training, why not perfect a good technique based escape and perfect it. You can always add your bite should circumstances allow, as you said yourself:

in fact I would have done this anyway before I even learned KM.

Lets clear something up. "technique" : The systematic procedure by which a complex or scientific task is accomplished.
I hardly think biting somebody can fall into this category. A savage reaction perhaps, but a technique, I don't think so.

Technique....reaction...who cares as long as it gets you out of a serious situation...perhaps a female escaping a sexual assault type attack. The objective is to escape from a dangerous and serious attacker, as long as the objective is achieved, the method should not matter. Thats my person view.

Also, as KM is for "THE STREET", if your attacker is wearing say, a leather jacket or any other item of medium to heavy clothing, even a couple of layers, your escape tactic of biting is now negated. Instead of biting somebody in training, why not perfect a good technique based escape and perfect it. You can always add your bite should circumstances allow, as you said yourself:[/QUOTE]

Of course biting is only one option, other modes of escape are drilled with all their variations based on situation, ie jacket, size, etc etc. I certainly don't just depend on a bite.

However bites work..simple and fast. Look at Paul Vunak he has a whole DVD dedicated to biting. (amongs all other aspects of fighting). He spent 6 years teching techniques like bites to the US Navy SEALS most elite units. If its good enough for the SEALS to use, i'll model the best.

Peace Dude

If I put you in a headlock (not saying this in an aggro chestbeating way ) you could try and bite me as much as you like. 6 years of rugby have taught me to ignore biting. I dont believe that its an effective attack unless youre gonna be opening up an artery. Id much rather rely on my Greco Roman Wrestling Headlock escapes. Then I could slam the guy, sit on him and bite him all day (not that thats what floats my boat ). And do you really wanna start spilling blood with your mouth when some junkie has you in a headlock??? Wouldnt know what you would catch! Does KM teach you special hygienic biting procedures?

I have n't yet seen a person stand still when some bites them and not jump...even with a simulated bite...so with respect...I don't think you'd me any different in reaction. However remember I said I have plenty of other escapes that work for me from the head lock situation, so a bite of course will not be the first route I go. though as I said it is the equalizer when needed and a very valuable tool to have if you need it.


Its fallacious reasoning to assume that because the SEALS use it that it is valid. How often do the seals engage in ONE on ONE mortal combat? Id much rather listen to the opinions of door staff who get in scraps all week and dont have the luxury of dealing out death blows left right and centre.[/QUOTE]

I think if the SEALS use it , that is the ultimate acid test of validity. there is no doubt about that. remember these elite units are the pros whose are trained for life or death situations.

dabhal wrote:

Sure people make comments to maket themselves. However remember KM is the offical system of Isreali special forces, and was developed by them. and fact Paul Vunak did train navy SEALS for 6 years on a full time basis. see wwwfighting.net for his references. So technique I am referring to is used by these groups.
I
As for bites, sure Dabhal , they will not work all the time. once approx 4 years ago I was attacked in dublin, by a thug a lot bigger and heavier than me, for no reason (mistaken identity I think) and started pounding the crap out of me (after he tried to throw me through window of blockbuster video). I had drink on board, hit him 2 rights and he did not flinch. ended up him straddling me on wet pavement , raining punches down on my face. If it was not for an eye gouge and a bite, I tell you I could be in a wheel chair today. an eye gouge and a bite, saved my life that night, my kickboxing did not, and I was doing no KM back then. so thats why I am pro techniques like this, cause it saved my bloody life!

you get attacked out of blue from your blind side, when your merry, my some thug bigger and heavier, who obviously was not new to random acts of violence, and starts to whack you with punches before your realise where you are....you only got one shot mate and I took it, and am happy to say defeated the idiot, and I hope he learned his lesson not to pick on smaller people.




Yes agree with Dabhal, that is a very personal attack, and serves no purpose in some of us debating techniques and systems etc. None of us have slagged off each other nor the systems we used.

It those seem that some people on here have a vendette against KM and Patrick Cumiskey. That I do not understand. As I said in another post I am doing martial arts approx 20 years (on and off) both traditional and modern, and I think KM is an excellent system for defense, you can learn fast and simple. and I have seen people come in and a few hours later with training and mentoring they are hitting the pads as good as some experienced martial artists. in fact some even have out shone practicing martial artists in ability and grit after 12 weeks training. perhaps because they come in without a chip on the shoulder, and are keen to give 110% , it is an amazing transformation, and excellent to see. of course KM does not have all the answers,none of us do, but it sure gives people who never learned any self defense an edge.

Anyway there is plenty of other martial arts groups out there who do short term courses for people to get a quick schooling in self defense.
here is a link to one , have a look at this web site. It looks good.

www.cqcireland.com

I am not familar with this style, though I am sure it is excellent too, maybe some of you lads on here know it? is it liked to MMA or more TA?

and there is one other doing similar too though I have not the link to hand, if I find it I will post too.

Millionaire wrote:

Anyway there is plenty of other martial arts groups out there who do short term courses for people to get a quick schooling in self defense.
here is a link to one , have a look at this web site. It looks good.

www.cqcireland.com

I am not familar with this style, though I am sure it is excellent too, maybe some of you lads on here know it? is it liked to MMA or more TA?

and there is one other doing similar too though I have not the link to hand, if I find it I will post too.

I have seen this another site as a link. I think it was the one I posted about?

It look like MMA? But who knows?????