Gardai carrying Guns

cena · 30-06-2012 9:31pm #1

Why do the guards not carry guns with at all times. Are we the only country were the law don't carry a gun

POGAN · 30-06-2012 9:55pm

Uniformed members you see walking the beat would not carry arms can't ever see a day they will, most detectives carry side arms, you have regional support unit and emergency response units that would have large range of less lethal and lethal weapons

Black Swan · 30-06-2012 9:58pm

cena wrote: »

Are we the only country were the law don't carry a gun

UK, New Zealand, and Norway generally do not carry firearms.

Turner · 30-06-2012 10:51pm

I believe all Gardai should be armed, there is no point in arming some Gardai and have unarmed Gardai required to attend armed calls.

I would guess it is down to money. 14000 guns and training would cost a lot. They can barely afford cars.

Many members work alone in rural areas. How are they supposed to respond to armed robberies or aggrevated burglaries?

Motorcyclist also should be armed, they travel alone and cannot wear ballistic vests (due to their other gear)

I do believe though that if you were to arm the Gardai you would also have to provide them with Tasers as a less lethal option.

Every town in Ireland has criminals with accecss to guns.. its time to arm all the Gardai to not only protect the public but also themselves.

The old saying of "If you arm the Gardai all the criminals will arm themselves" is bullsh1t.

Any gouger doing a robbery be it xtravision a shop or petrol station brings a knife or gun.

Any serious criminals doing bank robbery's or cash in transit robbery's will be part of a group and will all be armed.

Random · 30-06-2012 10:55pm

i wonder if we armed all the gardai, would we have cops that act like the american ones do on shows like "cops"?

i remember watching a road wars episode where 2 of the uk (unarmed) cops went to the states to go around with some american cops for a few weeks. the 2 uk lads chased down and detained an armed suspect while the american cops arrived later (they couldnt keep up or react quick enough?), guns drawn, wondernig wtf the uk lads were up to.

there seems to be a bit of a "hands on" approach to some policing by unarmed forces while if you look at the americans (for example) its all guns drawn escalating minor things into big messes in a hurry. at the end of the day the cop seems to either shoot or have to holster his weapon and chase anyway.

i think it would be a good idea to arm all the gardai, provided they (most of them anyway!) continue to use a bit of the common sense approach and dont turn into those american (the ones protrayed on the reality tv shows anyway) cops that are just too gun happy or taser happy for no good reason.

maybe for another thread but give the gardai the equipment and the manpower they need and stop paying over inflated pensions to politions who are still ****in working.

war_child · 30-06-2012 10:57pm

I have to say with all honesty i dread the idea of all guards being armed ....most cant deal with the small amount of beat power they have and on occasion cant resist from givin someone a good kickin just coz they didnt get laid lastnight ...arming guards is NOT an option ...and i would strongly protest against this if it ever arose in Ireland ..

cocoshovel · 01-07-2012 2:45am

I dont think all Gardai should be armed, instead there should be a lot more RSU units that are never too far away. Can you imagine the uproar that would be caused if the Gardai were armed, and then a few months later someone was shot dead?

I have to say with all honesty i dread the idea of all guards being armed ....most cant deal with the small amount of beat power they have and on occasion cant resist from givin someone a good kickin just coz they didnt get laid lastnight ...arming guards is NOT an option ...and i would strongly protest against this if it ever arose in Ireland ..

Care to elaborate on that or are you just trying to hit out at them because you dont like being told what to do?

fasttalkerchat · 01-07-2012 2:49am

I find pointing guns very aggressive. When the RUC had big machine guns pointed at you I was always intimidated by it.

Galwayguy35 · 01-07-2012 2:51am

war_child wrote: »

I have to say with all honesty i dread the idea of all guards being armed ....most cant deal with the small amount of beat power they have and on occasion cant resist from givin someone a good kickin just coz they didnt get laid lastnight ...arming guards is NOT an option ...and i would strongly protest against this if it ever arose in Ireland ..

You have proof to back up this statement have you?

Galwayguy35 · 01-07-2012 2:56am

Random wrote: »

i wonder if we armed all the gardai, would we have cops that act like the american ones do on shows like "cops"?

i remember watching a road wars episode where 2 of the uk (unarmed) cops went to the states to go around with some american cops for a few weeks. the 2 uk lads chased down and detained an armed suspect while the american cops arrived later (they couldnt keep up or react quick enough?), guns drawn, wondernig wtf the uk lads were up to.

there seems to be a bit of a "hands on" approach to some policing by unarmed forces while if you look at the americans (for example) its all guns drawn escalating minor things into big messes in a hurry. at the end of the day the cop seems to either shoot or have to holster his weapon and chase anyway.

i think it would be a good idea to arm all the gardai, provided they (most of them anyway!) continue to use a bit of the common sense approach and dont turn into those american (the ones protrayed on the reality tv shows anyway) cops that are just too gun happy or taser happy for no good reason.

maybe for another thread but give the gardai the equipment and the manpower they need and stop paying over inflated pensions to politions who are still ****in working.

Yeah and the UK cops could have just as easily got their heads blown off as well.Also these programmes are heavily edited to keep the viewer interested so you may not be seeing all that happens when suspects are being arrested.

I do think the Gardai should be armed. The €50 million the last government squandered on voting machines whould have gone a long way towards this.

jimmycrackcorm · 01-07-2012 3:18am

I don't think ordinary Guards should be armed - I cannot see the need for it at the moment. Yes - there are instances where Gardai are caught out unarmed but that's preferable to the U.S. situation where so many lose their lives to shoot-out conflicts.

POGAN · 01-07-2012 9:07am

Dublin td was complain why the gardas need oc spray When it wasn't need before 2008.
Guns would never happen

--Ryaner-- · 01-07-2012 9:22am

The next stage of Gardai being armed will be taser guns more then likely, RSU units carry these along with taser shotguns witch are very effective so far but as for normal Gardai it's a few years away be4 this happens.

war_child · 01-07-2012 11:43am

@ cocshovel and galwayguy.....its nothing to do with being told what to do most of the guards now i gurantee if a survey was done would have been bullied at school ....this in itself is a powder keg then ad a firearm to the mix youve just turned a powder keg in to a molotov cocktail...and galway in response to your question have proof to substantiate my claim yes i do it was written all over my face in august of 2004 ..were i was singled out whilst on a stags do in Carlow we had just arrived at the first pub after leaving the hotel were we had dinner armed with allof 2 pints and a pint of water in my system i was set upon by 2 plain clothes guards for nomore reason then i was from Dublin ...

Now after a lengthy investigation and camera evidence in court i was awarded 6k damages and both of the guards put on suspension without pay till they figured what to do with them

And i ask now how much worse would my night have been if those testosterone fuelled back water idiots were allowed by law to carry firearms instead of a broken rib broken cheekbone and my friends and family visting me in hospital could it have been the morgue

Now were we go from here is a choice i leave to you

WilcoOut · 01-07-2012 12:13pm

war_child wrote: »

ad a firearm to the mix youve just turned a powder keg in to a molotov cocktail...

you should have another go at that..............

Dr Turk Turkelton · 01-07-2012 12:25pm

No way should all Guards be armed this is a ludicrous suggestion.
Only guards who have proven their competence time and again and have been promoted to specialist units and higher ranks should have those responsibilities.

I'm sure any Guard on here would agree with that instead of arming every wannabe Will Smith from Ballygobackwards without any prior knowledge of their ability when under pressure and not just stopping a car for no tax as their main experience.

endacl · 01-07-2012 12:33pm

WilcoOut wrote: »

war_child wrote: »

ad a firearm to the mix youve just turned a powder keg in to a molotov cocktail...

you should have another go at that..............

Please. Do.

:-)

Duiske · 01-07-2012 12:52pm

war_child wrote: »

and galway in response to your question have proof to substantiate my claim yes i do it was written all over my face in august of 2004 ..were i was singled out whilst on a stags do in Carlow we had just arrived at the first pub after leaving the hotel were we had dinner armed with allof 2 pints and a pint of water in my system i was set upon by 2 plain clothes guards for nomore reason then i was from Dublin ...

Now after a lengthy investigation and camera evidence in court i was awarded 6k damages and both of the guards put on suspension without pay till they figured what to do with them

Surprised that this story did not at least make it to the local papers.

war_child · 01-07-2012 12:56pm

dont think so lad a powder keg is nothing without a fuse its just a threat ..the gun is that fuse which turns the normally dormant powder keg in to a hugely destructive force ....molotov cocktail ...ta da its magic

Duiske · 01-07-2012 12:59pm

war_child wrote: »

ta da its magic

No its not, its a chemical reaction.

Zambia · 01-07-2012 1:10pm

It always surprises me when this subject comes up. That so many people believe that issuing Irish police with firearms Will suddenly turn them into homicidal maniac's. An armed response unit is all well and good however when something escalates it normally escalates with very little warning.

christmas2012 · 01-07-2012 1:10pm

anyway i think the gards should be armed,its only right and proper,we need enforcement of law on the streets,and they would get proper training for it,they wouldnt be allowed to shoot willy nilly or when they feel like it,it would have to be carefully weighed situations..

war_child · 01-07-2012 1:14pm

@ duiske youd be very surprised what doesnt make it in to the papers ....

Tyron Jara · 01-07-2012 1:38pm

What about arming the regular guards with tasers? The UK traffic police now have tasers so would it be such a bad idea to get them hear too?

As for arming the guards with guns I feel the way it is now is better. Regular officers are not armed but detectives are.

goldie fish · 01-07-2012 1:42pm

war_child wrote: »

@ duiske youd be very surprised what doesnt make it in to the papers ....

Most compo cases do, particularly when Gardai are involved.

Pappa Charlie · 01-07-2012 1:51pm

goldie fish wrote: »

Most compo cases do, particularly when Gardai are involved.

Unfortunately the state dont fight as many cases as they should and give out compo pretty much to any tom dick or harry if they persist with a case. It justs costs too much to fight it. I'd rather earn my money!

Harry Bosch. · 01-07-2012 2:14pm

I do think that Gardai should be armed, i also think Gardai should have all the tools needed to do the job, from proper uniforms to equipment to cars, but we all know managements stance on these. This is a force that only in the last Five years introduced Stabvests, extendable batons, and Pepperspray, firearms for frontline Gardai wil be a long time coming. We havent got the basics sorted yet, adding firearms will only add to the list off problems. I think Tasers and more Regional support units are the way to go, for the moment at least.

Mike87 · 01-07-2012 2:53pm

I dont see the point of all garda carrying firearms. It would be far too costly and for what? THis isnt the US we live in. How often do we see/hear of a regular garda been killed after bumping into a weapon carrying maniac.

The amount of money we would spend on buying firearms/training would be extremely costly. Think about it for a second.

Lets not be under any illusion here, pistol shooting is a skill that needs to kept fine tuned. If you stop shooting for a few months and then go back to it you will be right back at square one. (Before you ask I spent years pistol shooting in the US). If a Garda cant shoot accurately, then s/he has no business shooting in public where lives are at risk from a stray bullet.

So the first big bill is to purchase and issue firearms and train every single garda in the country. Im not even going to try and guess how much that would cost.

Next you have to build training facilities in each county since the newly armed Garda will need constant practice. Some of the bigger counties may even need two or three facilities. This alone will push the bill up into the sky.

And lets not forget the constant supply of bullets that each garda would need for practicing. When I was shooting pistol it worked out at about €25 for 50 9mm rounds- which is the caliber Id assume the Garda would use.

I dont know how many Garda we have. But lets suppose theres 1000 garda in the country and lets suppose they can all get away with shooting 100 rounds a month to maintain their skill, that works out at €1.2million a year. And thats just your yearly ammunition bill.

Also are the Garda expected to practice on their own free time, or do they do get paid to do it? Is it overtime or do they take a halfday on a friday and go to the range for an hour or two?

As I already mentioned. For the most part, the average Garda walking about the street in this country is fairly safe. They might have to deal with some junkies or whatever- but thats where tasers/batons/pepperspray etc would be perfect.

Besides I can just imagine it already, all the people who get shot (and all the do-gooders supporting them) complaining they were drunk/high (because they came from a broken home) and didnt understand what was meant by "put the knife down" and since getting shot in the leg is now experiencing all sorts of difficulites and aswell as being forever disabled will also be requiring 10million euro compensation.

As for investigating and arresting the John Gilligan types, well, thats why we have smaller specialised groups who do carry firearms.

cocoshovel · 01-07-2012 2:54pm

war_child wrote: »

@ cocshovel and galwayguy.....its nothing to do with being told what to do most of the guards now i gurantee if a survey was done would have been bullied at school

What a childish statement to make. So what if they were? I highly doubt that the majority of them were, and even if they were, what difference does it make? A grown adult would not take such stupid emotions into their future job or at least one would expect them not to.

.... i was set upon by 2 plain clothes guards for nomore reason then i was from Dublin ...

Now after a lengthy investigation and camera evidence in court i was awarded 6k damages and both of the guards put on suspension without pay till they figured what to do with them

Im terribly sorry that happened but there's always another side to the story. Yes they were completely wrong in what they did to you but Im skeptical to beleieve they "set upon you" for no other reason than you were from Dublin. Even if they did, thats no reason to hate every single Garda in the country.

[/QUOTE]

Galwayguy35 · 01-07-2012 2:59pm

war_child wrote: »

@ cocshovel and galwayguy.....its nothing to do with being told what to do most of the guards now i gurantee if a survey was done would have been bullied at school ....this in itself is a powder keg then ad a firearm to the mix youve just turned a powder keg in to a molotov cocktail...and galway in response to your question have proof to substantiate my claim yes i do it was written all over my face in august of 2004 ..were i was singled out whilst on a stags do in Carlow we had just arrived at the first pub after leaving the hotel were we had dinner armed with allof 2 pints and a pint of water in my system i was set upon by 2 plain clothes guards for nomore reason then i was from Dublin ...

Now after a lengthy investigation and camera evidence in court i was awarded 6k damages and both of the guards put on suspension without pay till they figured what to do with them

And i ask now how much worse would my night have been if those testosterone fuelled back water idiots were allowed by law to carry firearms instead of a broken rib broken cheekbone and my friends and family visting me in hospital could it have been the morgue

Now were we go from here is a choice i leave to you

So 2 Guards jumped you because you were from Dublin?
How did they know you were from Dublin?

sdanseo · 01-07-2012 3:44pm

Cuchulainn1. wrote: »

No way should all Guards be armed this is a ludicrous suggestion.
Only guards who have proven their competence time and again and have been promoted to specialist units and higher ranks should have those responsibilities.

I'm sure any Guard on here would agree with that instead of arming every wannabe Will Smith from Ballygobackwards without any prior knowledge of their ability when under pressure and not just stopping a car for no tax as their main experience.

Posts like this prove two things:

1. Joe public's knowledge of the way the Gardaí work is near to zero.

2. Joe public's interpretation / general idea of AGS and their work is wrong, and that more positive media interaction is clearly required to change things. Garda Management has been backward in this regard and NEEDS to change tack NOW.

That said, I think Gardaí need to make more of an effort with their appearance. Many times I see a Guard I think they appear slovenly and unprofessional. They have the sleeves of a Hi-Vis rolled up, or a belt worn externally with all the various pouches pointing different directions, are leaning against a wall etc. There would appear; and remember that this comment comes from me, a strong supporter of the Gardaí as well as potential applicant, to be a lack of seriousness among SOME Guards.

That's not to say I want every Garda on the street to develop the attitude of US police or even some of the more serious cops in the UK. Our friendly, somewhat non-concerned attitude is common, it's Irish and it makes us different. And on talking to the Gardaí concerned, it most likely will become obvious that they care deeply about their job.

A lot of the above comes down to the uniform. Frankly, from an outside perspective, it appears utterly substandard. The Hi-Vis is substandard, the kit is ridiculous looking in parts. Removing the Hi-Vis when it's not needed (a lighter version could be happily carried in a pouch) or replacing it with the cycle unit one which every Guard in the country seems to want improves the Garda image tremendously - I always remark on how well the uniform looks without it.

(As an aside, has the patrol jacket been removed entirely? I never see it any more in Dublin and I think it looked extremely well)

At least in the US or even UK, cops give off an image that you don't want to mess with. Arming the Gardaí, if nothing else, would provide them with something of a tougher, more imposing presence. I'd be strongly in favour of arming every Garda, at the very least with Tazers, but also with firearms for their own protection and for the times they are needed. It's rare that a police officer in any other country draws their weapon in anger, and it's rare that detectives do so here. Fight with equal force, but have every tool available in the kit for when you're presented with a higher threat. Arguments that it would make the job less safe through forcing the gangs to tool up are void - the gangs are ALREADY tooled up and are for the most part fought by detectives who are all armed.

Now some would say that this is not required, that this is Ireland, that we don't want a police state - these arguments are void. A police presence deters crime, fact. An effective and high-profile police presence should only intimidate those doing something wrong, and not those that it is designed to reassure - and if anyone law-abiding finds Gardaí / Police intimidating then in my opinion the issue is with their perception and should be "got over" - they're there to ensure your safety. And they're equipped to a standard ten years behind every other western country in a lot of ways - something that must change now.

Just my €0.02.

Gardai carrying Guns

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