Homeopathy?

Myksyk · 23-03-2004 4:01pm

Keep going wg.

Myksyk · 23-03-2004 4:03pm

Hmm ... that last post transformed me from 'fast' to 'crazy'. Certified insanity at last.:D

Barnowl · 23-03-2004 5:51pm

wg - Maybe that explains the postal strike!

Mariana · 05-04-2004 2:22pm

Did anything else happen with this?
looking interesting.

Bear in mind that it seems that many doctors are, in fact, supportive of homeopathy and similar things,
but for the reason that it keeps the mad, the hypochondriacs, the bored and the unemployed out of their surgeries if they can convince them to go somewhere else, for diseases of the mind, or lonliness, or old age that doctors can do nothing about. (including the common cold, apparently red pills work better).

williamgrogan · 05-04-2004 2:39pm

I think I will have to wait until the postal strike is over before doing anything. I have no reason to think they won't send the report. They said they will. Post from the UK is very unreliable.

I did consider your point myself but I don't think doctors are that cynical.

There are doctors that support Acupuncture and maybe Herbal medicines but I cannot believe any doctor other than a nutter believes in Homeopathy. It’s one to thing to believe in Homeopathy because you know no better, but a trained MD?

The “keep them out of the surgery” point is very valid. Anyone who deals with the public will tell you that they are plagued by those that are lonely, just want a chat, weird etc. I think part of the success, maybe a big part, of alternative treatment is to live off this need. If you watch the Penn & Teller B******t TV program you will see that they keep coming across people who spend tens of thousands of dollars on quacks, not so much to gain relief but because of a need to interact with someone.

Maybe red is associated with heat and blue with cold?

Barnowl · 05-04-2004 2:56pm

Sadly many doctors are into homeopathy and their training is no antidote for it!Despite their familiarity with science they can still be drawn into the "I've seen it work and maybe ther is something in it" stance. There are homeopathic hospitals in Britain and the US.

Maybe we should be even more critical of pharmacists who certainly should know that homeopathy can't work without collapsing the whole of chemistry and physics behind it. Yet, they quite happily sell homeopathic products alongside magnets and other nonsense. Obviously the retail advantages come before any thought of what their code of ethics might demand of their practice.

williamgrogan · 05-04-2004 3:10pm

I've been carrying on a mini-campaign against pharmacists selling this stuff ever since I was offered a Homeopathy 'flu vaccine by a pharmacist in France. Could the ISS write to the body that oversees pharmacists and ask is it ethical? Are there guidelines? I think the average Joe would expect that anything sold in a pharmacy that claims medicinal benefits is for real.

There's a big difference between selling fake tan cream and fake medicine.

Calibos · 05-04-2004 5:01pm

but for the reason that it keeps the mad, the hypochondriacs, the bored and the unemployed out of their surgeries

TBH I think its the opposite. They offer these C.A.M. services not because they believe in it but because it gets more paying patients through the door.

williamgrogan · 05-04-2004 6:16pm

Hang on a second, does anyone actually know a doctor (no names obviously) that sells or even recommends Homeopathic remedies? Would a doctor that proscribes Homeopathic remedies not be liable to censure?

davros · 05-04-2004 7:57pm

Originally posted by williamgrogan
Would a doctor that prescribes Homeopathic remedies not be liable to censure?

Legally, no. Take a look at these items of legislation that specifically allow homeopathic treatments.

Barnowl · 06-04-2004 11:25am

WG. There is an article by Roger Dobson that appeared in the British Medical Journal on Nov. 29th 2003 entitled "Half of general practices offer patients complementary medicine". The article is based on a research study and indicates that 49% of general practices in England were providing some access to complementary or alternative therapies in 2001. One or more of the primary health care team - GPs, nurses or others - provided the therapies in about 30% of cases. Other services were provided from outside following referral.

The article can be accessed at http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/327/7426/1250-f.

No names, but worrying stats.

Barnowl · 06-04-2004 11:26am

Forgot to mention - acupuncture and homeopathy were the therapies most provided.

williamgrogan · 06-04-2004 12:26pm

That link to the article is broken. Can you have a look?

The “86% of Doctors are in favour of a Homeopathy Hospital” survey from Glasgow now looks less ridiculous. However the wording of these things is very important. The slant that CAM people put on things often deserves a Nobel Prize for literature.

Ultimately I want to find the names of the ~135 doctors that were surveyed and send them another questionnaire that asks in a more direct way, perhaps through multiple questions if they actually believe that Homeopathy or Acupuncture works.

I read with incredulity Davros’ link to the EU legislation that specifically says that prescribing Homeopathic “remedies” is acceptable. I would love to know the background to how this utter crap got into legislation. It’s like reading something from Alice in Wonderland. A similar thing happened in the USA when Chiropractic got into legislation years ago and I think this indicates the danger of going down the “Certification” path that has been suggested.

The general drift is …. it’s OK to prescribe Homeopathic products provided that they are diluted to such an extent that they are pure water. My brain nearly went into a terminal loop trying to fathom how ridiculous that is. It's like saying, "its OK to prescribe a medicine that isn't there".

Barnowl · 06-04-2004 2:15pm

Sorry about the broken link to BMJ. If you go to their website www.bmj.com and search the archive using the article information you will find it. There is also a reference to the original research which you might have time to follow up.

Calibos · 09-04-2004 11:41pm

Found this link over at James Randi forums. Very Funny I thought

Here

williamgrogan · 10-04-2004 11:05am

I have received the “study” from the British Homeopathic Library, Glasgow.

It is one entire A4 page, so the attached complement slip says that they will not charge me the £3.50 for sending it. Nice people Homeopaths.

I can’t stick the whole things up because I had to agree that it’s copyrighted. The following is an extract.

It refers to a new clinic set up by, wait for it …. Dr Patricia Hannaford, MBChB, MRCGP, MFHom, locum consultant in homeopathy. [could someone tell me what those awards mean?] Is she a Dr? A real Doctor?

“Demand was running at 200 referrals during the first two months via GPs with 20-30 new ones per week.”

“More than 30 GPs in Lothian have undertaken post-grad training in homeopathy. They use it in their practices but don’t have the time within normal surgery hours to be able to offer a full homeopathic service.”

“The purpose of the pilot study was to access the demand for further specialist services”.

They sent out a questionnaire to 540 GPs in Lothian to ascertain their views on CAM.

304 replies – 56%

63% had no training in CAM.

Only 10% had never recommended patients to CAM.

Table 1 shows

No of GPs who have referred/recommended CAM.

.................No......%
Herbal...........20......6.58
Other............20......6.58
Acupuncture.....130.....42.76
Hypnosis........150.....49.34
Chiropratic.....180.....59.21
Homeopathy......210.....69.08
More than one...230.....75.66

The “more than one” figure above is very odd. It seems to indicate that for example virtually all the GPs that recommended Homeopathic treatments never referred any other CAM and would indicate that GPs only stick to one at most CAM referral. It would be astonishing if it were true that 69% of GPs recommended Homeopathic remedies.

No of GPs who would like further training in CAM

................No.......%
Aromatherapy.....3.......0.987
Orthopaedics.....3.......0.987
Reflexology......3.......0.987
Massage..........5.......1.645
Not specified....5.......1.645
All..............8.......2.632
Osteopathy......18.......5.921
Acupuncture.....20.......6.579
Hypnosis........24.......7.895
Chiropratic.....25.......8.224
Homeopathy......45......14.803

This looks better! I had to go to 3 decimal points to give a “view” of the numbers that wanted further training in some of the CAMs. However 1 in 7 wants further training in Homeopathy.

I think this is really weird in comparison to the first table. It shows a much smaller “interest”.

74% said they would welcome a specialist homeopathic facility in Lothian, 38% in a nearby health centre and 39% other local premises (maybe the mental hospital? WG). 21% were not in favour of such a service.

Their conclusions….

“It can quite clearly be seen that the results of this questionnaire demonstrate support from Lothian GPs for a specialist homeopathic provision locally.”

“The majority …. were willing to refer in homeopathy.”

The study was by Michael Wilson who is a GP in Dalkeith.

****************

In a study like this it may be that many of those who think homeopathy is rubbish would throw the questionaire in the bin.

I think a very good exercise would be to devise another study and send it to the same doctors. Questions should include,

Do you understand how Homeopathy works?

Do you believe it works?

Perhaps send an explanation of Homeopathy, even from a Homeopathic source, and ask them to read it and then answer the second page. If this many GPs refer to Homeopathy then they obviously do not understand it.

Ask them do they believe in Acupuncture and if so do they believe there are “Energy Channels” in the body that are affected by sticking needles in them.

Do they understand Chiropractic? An explanation and then ask do they believe it.

PS

Is there any simple way to stick in a table or spreadsheet in a post?

davros · 10-04-2004 12:54pm

Very interesting figures.

Originally posted by williamgrogan
The “more than one” figure above is very odd. It seems to indicate that for example virtually all the GPs that recommended Homeopathic treatments never referred any other CAM and would indicate that GPs only stick to one at most CAM referral.

I don't think it means that. It's quite possible that the 180 doctors that recommended chiropractic also recommended homeopathy.

I think this is really weird in comparison to the first table. It shows a much smaller “interest”.

Which could indicate that they don't actually believe in CAM but are happy to redirect patients that they can't help for a placebo fix.

In a study like this it may be that many of those who think homeopathy is rubbish would throw the questionaire in the bin.

I'd like to believe that but I suspect it's more likely that those who can't abide CAM would respond just to say "there will be a CAM clinic in my area over my dead body".

Is there any simple way to stick in a table or spreadsheet in a post?

Not that I know of.

MeatProduct · 12-04-2004 12:58am

While I am not as well versed in homeopathy as I am in other "alternative" therapies I would place more promise in it than any western medication. One of my old kung fu teachers practices it. He has had great success with it. I have never had the need to try it since I have been practicing yoga for the last three years so I haven't had an illness that homeopathy would be beneficial for.

For some people it could be the placebo effect. Certainly not for all. That science cannot explain how homeopathy works is not the failing of homeopathy, it is the failing of science. Before anyone makes a damning judgement on any therapy, try it. Otherwise your views are meaningless. Some years ago I was rather skeptical about most "alternative" therapies. So what did I do? Go around talking rubbish about them? No. I tried them. Some failed, some worked.

People need not get so aggressive about "alternative" therapies. If it's a problem that some of them make money then I assume that you have a problem with your GP also. Aggression for a healing art is rather ironic as aggression will lead to negative energy in your body which generally expresses itself as illness.

PM me if anyone would like to know more about so called "alternative" therapies. It can't hurt to inform yourself.

Nick

davros · 12-04-2004 11:01am

Originally posted by MeatProduct
Some failed, some worked.

How do you know they worked? All you know is that you used a particular treatment and you subsequently got better. You don't know if the treatment was the cure or if it was just coincidence.

Medical research, on the other hand, has a way of deciding this very question - .double blind clinical trials. Homeopathy has been subjected to such trials and has failed.

Not only does it not work, homeopaths have failed to offer any reasonable explanation as to how it could possibly work.

We are not being aggressive. We are saying that homeopathy (and many other CAMs) has had its chance to prove itself. It has failed so it is time to abandon it.

MeatProduct · 12-04-2004 11:10am

Originally posted by davros
How do you know they worked? All you know is that you used a particular treatment and you subsequently got better. You don't know if the treatment was the cure or if it was just coincidence.

Medical research, on the other hand, has a way of deciding this very question - .double blind clinical trials. Homeopathy has been subjected to such trials and has failed.

Not only does it not work, homeopaths have failed to offer any reasonable explanation as to how it could possibly work.

We are not being aggressive. We are saying that homeopathy (and many other CAMs) has had its chance to prove itself. It has failed so it is time to abandon it.

Hi Davros,
Yes, some could have been coincidence so I put them in the pile that didn't work. The ones that genuinly gave me instant results were the ones I considered useful. That is obviously an unfair yardstick to use as many therapies require repeat visits to be effective.

I can utterly understand why you should think that Homeopathy is a failure. If you would be willing I can arrange for you to have a visit with a homeopathy practitioner at my cost. I think it is very important to try these therapies out. Due to my areas of interest I have extensive links with "alternative" practitioners, maybe I could set up a meeting for those on boards to discuss with practitioners what misgivings they have. To do this I strongly feel that the participants should have tried these therapies.

So Davros, what do you think? I'm afraid it will have to be in Cork but I might be able to do something in Dublin.

Nick

Silent Bob · 12-04-2004 7:45pm

MeatProduct, think for a while about what homeopathy is. The aim is to create a solution (of some toxin in distilled water) so dilute that you would have to consume a pill (made from the final solution) equal in mass to the Earth to be fairly certain of consuming just one molecule of the toxin.

The idea is that the water somehow maintains the properties of what was put in it without any of the bad effects and your body will respond to the 'toxin'-like water hence healing you.

You have to wonder how the water chooses to only maintain the properties of what the homeopathist put in it (and why it doesn't maintain the lethal properties of the toxin). Why doesn't all water maintain properties of, say, urine and faeces? You can be pretty sure that most every drop of water we drink has been somewhere near one of those at some stage in it's existance.

MeatProduct · 12-04-2004 7:53pm

Hi Silent Bob,

I'm afraid I don't know enough about this particular subject to offer an informed opinion. I am more than willing to try and set up a meeting between boards members and a practitioner of homeopathy.

Nick

EDIT: Have you tried homeopathy Silent Bob?

davros · 12-04-2004 9:08pm

Originally posted by MeatProduct
So Davros, what do you think? I'm afraid it will have to be in Cork but I might be able to do something in Dublin.

Thanks for the offer but I'm going to decline.

Life is far too short to try everything. When all the evidence (and common sense) points in one direction, it would be quite perverse of me to persist in trying to prove the opposite. I'm satisfied to conclude that homeopathy has no intrinsic worth whatsoever.

To get me to believe otherwise will require significant proof published in respected medical journals.

williamgrogan · 12-04-2004 9:29pm

I'm afraid I don't know enough about this particular subject to offer an informed opinion

Excuse me for stating the bleedin obvious, but is that your problem? Why don't you see to it that you do know a bit more about Homeopathy and then tell us what you think? The main reason people fall for Homeopathic scams is that they do not know the details. When they do, they realise it's a con. It's as simple as that.

MeatProduct · 12-04-2004 9:40pm

Originally posted by williamgrogan
Excuse me for stating the bleedin obvious, but is that your problem?

I'll assume the moderator will deal with this.

Nick

ecksor · 12-04-2004 9:46pm

"Is that your problem?"

I can rattle off a good few instances where a visit to my GP has done me some good and cured me of an illness, but I sure as hell can't give you the details of all the treatments or explain how the drugs work. Am I unjustified in saying that conventional medicine is worthwhile because it has worked for me?

I can also give you a good few instances where a visit to the GP did me no good at all and I got progressively worse and very very ill. I'm not concluding on the basis of that saying that conventional medicine is bunk and that I only got better on the other occasions due to coincidence. Perhaps I should.

The research for and against (including the issue of which sorts of research gets adequate funding) is obviously relevant and I believe it's the best way to determine the truth, but I think your post reveals a doublestandard here about how people choose to have themselves treated.

williamgrogan · 13-04-2004 8:44am

I'm afraid I don't know enough about this particular subject to offer an informed opinion

Maybe I didn’t make my point clear or maybe you read something I didn’t intend. It is stating the obvious that when someone says that they believe in X but admit they don’t know anything about it that the solution is to read up on it.

It was you who said that you don’t know enough about this particular subject, and I simply said that maybe that was why you thought that Homeopathy might have something to it. In other words “your problem” is that you do not understand Homeopathy and therefore are making a mistake in thinking that it might work. This problem can be solved by simply reading for an hour or so on the subject from the sources you were directed to or my suggestion is www.quackwatch.com. I then suggested that afterwards you revert back to us with your opinion on Homeopathy.

Sorry, I’m a programmer, I see everything as problems to be defined and solved.

davros · 13-04-2004 9:47am

Originally posted by MeatProduct
I'll assume the moderator will deal with this.

I think williamgrogan's follow-up post clarified that sufficiently.

williamgrogan · 13-04-2004 10:31am

I see that Irish Pharmaceutical Union want to be able to prescribe medicines that at present only doctors can prescribe. Presumably they should be denied this until they stop selling snake oil?

Silent Bob · 13-04-2004 10:37am

Originally posted by MeatProduct
EDIT: Have you tried homeopathy Silent Bob?

Nope, I prefer not to be completely ripped off when buying sugar and/or water.

If someone can show me that there is more to it than that, and this is the important part, with a scientifically acceptable method then I will consider it. Until then I'll just get my sugar from the supermarket and my water from the tap.

Homeopathy?

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