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Padraig Pearse

24567

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,778 ✭✭✭WilcoOut


    Fasinating discussion lads, keep it coming!

    can anyone recommend some decent reading material on the man and his life?

    im a little bit apprehensive of dudley edwards...................or perhaps I can be swayed upon your recommendation

    cheers!


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,124 ✭✭✭wolfpawnat


    WilcoOut wrote: »
    Fasinating discussion lads, keep it coming!

    can anyone recommend some decent reading material on the man and his life?

    im a little bit apprehensive of dudley edwards...................or perhaps I can be swayed upon your recommendation

    cheers!

    Housemate is not home til this evening and he is the know all in this house. I will ask him later and post links for you then :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,778 ✭✭✭WilcoOut


    wolfpawnat wrote: »
    Housemate is not home til this evening and he is the know all in this house. I will ask him later and post links for you then :)

    cant wait :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    I don't know if I would want to read Dudley Edwards book either. It does not look like she knows that much about him and resorts to psychobabble to fill the gaps.

    A huge gap in her article on Pearse and his relationship with his half sister and brother and their families.If I could find it.........

    I picked up what I did on an internet search looking for details of the work James & Willie did as monumental/ecclesiastical sculptors and where they could be seen in Dublin. So it was not hidden.

    The blood sacrifice thing , I don't get that either, g-g-granduncle hanged by the British in 1798 in the family history. It was a distinct possibility that the leaders if put on trial would be executed. They knew they were not going to have a military victory( Willie did get harshly treated.). The death penalty did get used in those days - Lord Haw Haw executed 40 years later. So I dont buy it.

    The girlfriend bit. He did not seem as isolated socially from the snippits I have read. Maybe he was a slow mover. And a popular literary magazine editor would have to have some social skills.

    And, a more likely explanation for the isolated family reputation is the "family scandal" and people keeping schtum as opposed to anything else.

    Just a few observations.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,488 ✭✭✭Denerick


    CDfm wrote: »
    I don't know if I would want to read Dudley Edwards book either. It does not look like she knows that much about him and resorts to psychobabble to fill the gaps.

    That is simply not true. Maybe 1% of the book is 'pyschobabble'.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Denerick wrote: »
    That is simply not true. Maybe 1% of the book is 'pyschobabble'.


    I dunno Denerick. I havent read the book - but here are some extracts from an article she wrote for the Indo.

    http://www.independent.ie/unsorted/features/the-terrible-legacy-of-patrick-pearse-348632.html
    From boyhood he was single-minded and dedicated beyond the norm. A Pearse with a wife and family would have been obliged to concentrate more on reality than on romance

    He assisted running the family business following his fathers death , it was dissolved owing to an economic slump and possibly the scandal involving his brother-in-law.

    Would Pearse have had the same yearning for immortality if he had had children? Or even the nieces and nephews denied him because of the strange inwardness of the Pearse family. None of the four children went into the Church, and yet none of them married or, apparently, had any normal sexual relationships. Pearse's three siblings seem to have sublimated their sexuality by helping their big brother with his cultural and educational causes

    There were 6 in the blended family and not 4 and 2 of them married and Pearses ladyfriend drowned tragically. His half sisters husband ran off with the home help. He was friendly with his nephew, his half sisters son.

    How can she talk about "strange inwardness" of a family she knows so little about - she gets the composition totally wrong.

    The Pearse boys could also have been up & down to Monto every chance they got and she wouldnt know.


    His sister, for instance, didn't want him at the GPO
    Mary Bridget, who suffered from depression, did not endear herself to nationalists after she reportedly told Patrick to come home and not be foolish during the siege in the GPO.

    She may not have been disposed to marrying at all if she was suffering from depression.Depression is an illness.


    http://www.tribune.ie/article/2002/feb/03/the-diaries-that-split-padraig-pearses-family-apar/

    So what I am saying , is she speculates ,which she is entitled to do, but she gets it factually wrong on the composition of his family etc.

    Her article for the Independent would not draw me to her book.

    I have mixed views on 1916 in Dublin and my grandfather was involved in Cork and felt it was the right thing. On the "Troubles" - he certainly didnt want his children or his grandchildren involved. That is another issue.

    Michael Collins didnt consider Pearse much of a leader.

    Anyway, the truth is a lot racier then what we normally read about Pearse and his life and makes it more believeable..


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,165 ✭✭✭✭brianthebard


    Good points CDfm, many of those claims are just obviously absurd, Connolly and DeV both had a young family and wife for instance yet it didn't stop them, as did many others, Pearse hardly turned his back on romantic interests for that reason if he did stop taking an interest.
    Dozens or perhaps hundreds of people similar to Mary Bridget asked their relatives and friends to give up or return home.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Some pics from a Pearse Gallery

    1491.jpg
    Pearse with a group of people, c. 1905.
    (Back row, from left): William Pearse, Harry Clifton, Patrick Pearse, E. Ni Niocoil, Mr Geoghegan, (front row) Edward Sheridan, Professor Mary Hayen, [...]

    I found a pic of Patrick Pearse with Eveleen Nicoll

    742.jpg
    Hannah Sheehy-Skeffington and Margaret Pearse c. 1921.
    Margaret Pearse was the mother of Pádraig and William Pearse. A native of Co. Meath, she joined Sinn Féin after the 1916 Rising. She was elected a Sin [...]
    1282.jpg
    Pádraig Pearse in his barrister's robes c. 1914.


    And there are more here

    http://multitext.ucc.ie/viewgallery/1269


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Now here is a link that discribes in a page how the standard historians view Pearse

    showArticleImage?image=images%2Fpages%2Fdtc.103.tif.gif&doi=10.2307%2F2709801

    http://www.jstor.org/pss/2709801


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,488 ✭✭✭Denerick


    @ CDfm,

    I really wish Ruth Dudley Edwards didn't write her stupid columns in the Daily Mail and in the Indo. It makes it ever more difficult to enjoy her biography of Pearse (Which I have always found interesting, a little explosive, but contrary to general opinion actually rather fair)


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    The bit the hits out at me here is that Pearses personal failure as an " artist , educator and dramatist lead him to embrace violent republicanism"

    So what do we know of Pearse and his career.

    We know that at 22 in 1900 his Dad died and the Census in 1901 lists him as the Head of the Household.

    We also know that he had qualified as a Barrister - but we do not know if he was attached to any Chambers - young barristers often are subsidised by their families. Is it reasonable that he could have pursued a career at Law at that time.

    As an artist/writer well he worked as Editor of An Claidheamh Soluis / Conragh Na Gaelige from 1903 to 1909 and accounts have him as being sucessful.

    Do we know if he made any money out of it.??

    Dramatist ? - he and his brother ran a business and were brought up with the concept of a buyer and a seller. He also sometimes called himself a sculptor.

    He set up St Enda's in 1909 - his brother in law Alfred McGlouglain drew up the plans and suddenly disappeared. His mother is installed as the housekeeper in the new venture and his brother a sculptor of some promise accepts commisions while teaching Art & Physical Education at the school.

    Now , you don't have to be a historian to give this a shot.

    The Second Part of his adult life is post An Claidheamh Soluis when he set up St Enda's, Irish Volunteers , etc. His Dad had been a Parnellite etc.

    The theory on Pearse has been "suicide by uprising" .


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Denerick wrote: »
    @ CDfm,

    I really wish Ruth Dudley Edwards didn't write her stupid columns in the Daily Mail and in the Indo. It makes it ever more difficult to enjoy her biography of Pearse (Which I have always found interesting, a little explosive, but contrary to general opinion actually rather fair)

    Hi Denerick.

    I just latched on to this by accident after asking about Pearse sculptures and finding some references to a lost side of the family. I wanted to find out more about James Senior & William. I thought I knew about Patrick.

    What I am trying to do here is ask questions and probing the theories.

    I have done this with John Jinks too.

    I really would like to know more and we know that the gaps were there for a reason.

    It is also an interesting piece of social history too.

    So is the Pearse here the man you knew.

    CD


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Pearses school was not a Financial Success and he was responsible for making Irish compulsory for entry into the NUI.

    By extention he made Irish compulsory in Irish schools or at least influenced it,
    pearse.jpgProf Declan Kiberd, Professor of Anglo Irish literature and drama at UCD with Dr Brendan Walsh and Dr Gerry McNamara, Head of School of Education studies

    Dr Brendan Walsh, lecturer in history of education, educational policy and teaching methodology at DCU, recently launched his book entitled ‘The Pedagogy of Protest: The Educational Thought and Work of Patrick H. Pearse’
    ZSA

    Irish & NUI Entry - Pearses legacy


    However, Pearse’s final triumph, in this regard, was in leading the campaign to have Irish made obligatory for entry to the NUI.

    He argued with lots of people
    The omission is remarkable given that Pearse devoted his adult life to education and the campaign to revive the Irish language, which often led him into bitter disputes with education commissioners, civil servants, bishops and the Gaelic League. Pearse’s belief that successive British administrations were prepared to allow the language to slip into oblivion appears justified, according to Walsh, with an unwillingness by the Treasury to continue funding the language at a time when it was among the most popular school subjects

    Many former St Enda's pupils joined him in the rising.





    Pearse’s belief that successive British administrations were prepared to allow the language to slip into oblivion appears justified, according to Walsh, with an unwillingness by the Treasury to continue funding the language at a time when it was among the most popular school subjects. However, Pearse’s final triumph, in this regard, was in leading the campaign to have Irish made obligatory for entry to the NUI. The book looks in detail at a host of issues from the history of the language at university level in Ireland, British thinking on the supremacy of English and the role of the vernacular, and provides a thorough study of Pearse’s theory of bilingual teaching as a means of reviving Irish. In addition, the first complete account of Pearse’s sound educational work at St Enda’s – while at Cullenswood House, Ranelagh and the Hermitage, Rathfarnham – is provided at length. In light of primary source material and taped interviews with past pupils and colleagues, Pearse emerges as a humane, energetic and inspirational teacher, not least in the school’s theatrical presentations and outstanding sporting achievements. The riskier side of life at St Enda’s is not glossed over by Walsh, from the financial difficulties Pearse experienced and falling enrolments to the role of nationalism and his advocacy of physical force separatism. Clearly, the latter two impacted heavily on his pupils, many of whom fought alongside him in the GPO during the Easter Rising.

    His finances were precarious from the very begining and he was refused a loan for the venture. So he may have been very reckless.

    Also, his educational aspirations may have influenced his shift to an extremer form of nationalism. Look around and we see 30 teachers in the new Dail and 38 in the last one.

    He may have personalised the issues.



    http://www.jstor.org/pss/30101320

    showArticleImage?image=images%2Fpages%2Fdtc.66.tif.gif&doi=10.2307%2F30101320


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Here is a very interesting Article on publishing the schools magazine.

    Even boards.ie is not owned by a benevolent benefactor but has to pay it way in the form of advertising.

    Anyone who has worked in publishing will know that the revenue of a magazine is a combination of (cover price sales) and advertising sales revenue.

    This article is by Dr Colum Kenny of DCU Lecturer in Communications.

    How to publish, and be damned


    Sunday Apr 15 2001
    Letters to Colum Kenny's grandfather show Patrick Pearse's pragmatism over An Macaomh and its debtTWO unpublished letters have lain among my family's papers for 90 years. They show Patrick Pearse to have been a practical man when it came to the realities of publishing.
    The future Irish political martyr, who was to die in the Rebellion that broke out on Easter Sunday 1916, worked for many years as a teacher and writer. But he was also a businessman, forever struggling to make ends meet running St Enda's School in south Dublin and financing various publications that contained a romantic, nationalist view of Irish life.
    When it came to paying for his publications Pearse worked with one of my grandfathers, the late Kevin J Kenny, who had founded the first Irish advertising service in the last decade of the 19th century. Among other activists with whom my grandfather worked commercially were Arthur Griffith and Joseph Mary Plunkett. Plunkett also died in 1916.
    Between contending images of Patrick Pearse as a poetic idealist or as a dangerous romantic, there is little enough room to glimpse the man as a pragmatic organiser. But the two letters he wrote in 1910 to my grandfather reveal Pearse's attention to detail in the mundane matter of financing An Macaomh (Youth). This was the magazine of St Enda's, the Irish-language school he founded in Rathfarnham two years earlier.
    Previously unpublished, the letters show Pearse guiding Kenny towards potential advertisers, people with whom St Enda's did business or whose sons were at the school. "We must make this issue pay," Pearse told his agent in December 1910. He added that "no time is to be lost" and urged my grandfather to, "for God's sake, make the best use you can of these two days ... ".
    A few weeks earlier, Pearse had admitted to his friend Seán T O'Ceallaigh, the future president of Ireland, that "I need money badly at the moment". The hero of 1916 was chronically in debt.
    Pearse's key role in the formation of this state was explained last week in a new documentary on the patriot, made independently for RTÉ by Mint Productions. Even staunch critics of Pearse's nationalist legacy, such as Conor Cruise O'Brien, were prepared to acknowledge the quality of his commitment to education and to the Irish language.
    One of the ironies of the new state, although ostensibly founded on foot of the 1916 Rebellion, was that it ignored Pearse's more radical ideas on education. His school in Rathfarnham was let die by Dev. Much later, St Enda's became a museum.
    It was from St Enda's ("Telephone: 8 Rathfarnham") that he wrote to my grandfather on December 7, 1910. He was worried that the school's publication might falter after a promising start:
    A chara, We must print off An Macaomh on Monday or Tuesday next, so as to have it on [COLOR=#009900 ! important]sale[/COLOR] before Aonach na Nolag is over and before the boys go home for vacation. I hope you have made good progress with adverts and hand in copy as you get it to Dollard [the printer]. Make a great effort this time to have adverts up to mark. Last issue would have paid if adverts had been anything like they were in first issue. We must make this issue pay. No time is to be lost. Yours P.H.Pearse.
    [P.S.] You should get advts. from William Magee, Grocer, 7 Rathmines Tce., W. Landy, Bakeries, Rathfarnham, and Meyers & Co., Furniture Removers, Ironmongers, etc., 44 Highfield Rd., with all of whom we are dealing largely this year; try also P.Horan, Tailor, 63 Dame St., who has three boys here. Also McCabes, Fishmongers, Rathmines Road, and L.Nugent, Irish Creamery, Lr.Baggot St., with whom we deal.
    Five days later, Pearse had received the proofs of some articles from the printer but was still anxious about his finances. He wrote again to Kevin J. Kenny:
    A chara, Enclosed have been sent to me. You had better return them to Dollard, corrected. I have only corrected the obvious mistakes in the Irish, not read them through carefully, so you will have to do this. For God's sake make the best use you can of these two days, and have as many adverts as possible by to-morrow night. Try Eastman's, Rathmines, and Purcell, Cigar Merchant, 16 N. Earl St. Make a good show. It will be a good number. P.H.Pearse.
    IN leaving my grandfather to sort out the practical problems of correcting proofs and raising cash, Pearse allowed himself time to concentrate on his ideals. Those ideals, expressed by Pearse and others so nobly in the Proclamation of Easter Sunday 1916, later left the new State with a legacy of aspirations against which to measure actual political achievements.
    Last week on TV the current Taoiseach, Bertie Ahern, spoke of how he and "people like me" are motivated by Patrick Pearse and the other heroes of 1916. Cynical viewers might have responded with a quip of my late grandfather, which was that if Pearse were alive today he would be spinning in his grave.
    * Dr Colum Kenny is a senior lecturer in Communications at DCU




    Read more: http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/independent-woman/celebrity-news-gossip/how-to-publish-and-be-damned-507744.html#ixzz1FXDhARiy

    What I am interested in here really is Pearses life and finances between say 1900 & 1909 and specifically if he made any money writting and editing An Claidheamh Soluis.

    The other thing -was did he contribute in any way to the running of Pearse & Sons .

    So , what do we know about his occupation & lifestyle ?

    Did he bet on horses , did he like a pint etc.

    It has been said that Patrick dressed in womens clothes and went to Monto . Now I have looked for a source and all I got was Dublins walking tours.

    I dont know what students were like in those days but I have been a rock festivals in Germany where lads do that and
    2: The Monto
    The largest and most famous European Red-Light district in 19th century Europe �The Monto� was mainly situated in Montgomery Street, now Foley Street. According to the Enclyclopaedia Britannica the prostitutes of The Monto were �even more forward than those of Algiers�. It was popular with both Kings and Rebels, King Edward VII supposedly lost his virginity there and seemingly Patrick and Willie Pearse liked to wander through its streets dressed as women. (!) James Joyce situated a whole chapter of Ulysses in the area, listing the various prices of the girls on offer. What a martyr to his research that man was! Politicians of course were regular clients. During the early years of the Free State it was said that �when the Senate is open The Monto is full�. But eventually Holy Catholic Ireland intervened in the form of the Legion of Mary. Piously they paraded up and down the streets pinning pictures of the Virgin Mary on all the Brothel doors while their founder, Frank Duff recited the rosary. It worked. For the next sixty years we had no sex in Ireland. Honest.

    http://www.historicalinsights.ie/articles/therealhistoryofireland.php

    The Classic in Rathgar ran the Rocky Horror Show for 21 years - so there is no real inference one way or the other here. Now I havent been but quite a few friends who lived in the area and are heterosexual used to make the trip. Some dressed up.

    http://myhome.iolfree.ie/~ccdublin/albert_kelly_rip.htm

    So what was the guy like in that decade in his 20's - 1900 to 1910 ???



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Some seem to say that Pearse was well paid at his Editors job.
    “ Over centuries of conflict, Ireland has produced many heroes. One who had more lasting effect than many, was Patrick Pearse, who's actions were instrumental in attaining the independence of his nation. From a very young age Patrick Pearse had a passionate interest in the Irish language and Gaelic culture, and sought to revive it through the Gaelic League. In 1908 he gave up his very well-paid job as editor of the Gaelic League newspaper and used his life-savings and loans from his friends to open his own "Irish-Ireland" school which offered Irish language instruction and demonstrated that education could be a pleasure rather than torture. Later he would develop a strong interest in pol ... ”

    http://www.writework.com/essay/patrick-pearse-and-his-role-easter-rising-and-ireland-s-qu

    There is also speculation that he was autistic

    [IMG]file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Vincent/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot-12.png[/IMG]
    Patrick Pearse (1879- 1916, also known as Pádraig Pearse, Irish nationalist rebel and political activist, also a teacher, barrister, poet and writer. Pearse was one of the leaders of the Easter Rising of 1916 and may have been declared the President of the Provisional Government but this is unclear. Pearse was executed. He was was the subject of speculation during his life and after his death that he may have been homosexual despite there apparently being no evidence that he engaged in hetero or homo-sexual activity. There is a chapter about Pearse in the book Unstoppable brilliance: Irish geniuses and Asperger’s syndrome by Walker and Fitzgerald.)

    Or as the Tipperary Star quote him
    A good laugh


    Published on Fri Dec 09 10:57:13 GMT 2005

    What price would you be willing to pay for a good laugh? It is difficult to even associate money and price with such a natural human function which, as Patrick Pearse wrote, was a gift God gave to man and woman but denied "to animals and angels".

    Here is a link to Google Books and the Schools finance and if you click the back/forward buttons or read 10 pages either side you will get a feel for what went on.

    The pedagogy of protest: the educational thought and work of Patrick H. Pearse

    By Brendan Walsh

    http://books.google.ie/books?id=UA3fbLv1EQoC&pg=PA266&lpg=PA266&dq=patrick+pearse+%26+money&source=bl&ots=yI5Z6ntoS0&sig=IQjhFK1c87HCQFG-ZxCd5ldoJ8Q&hl=en&ei=Nq5vTarBOJG3hAeqgtU3&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CGUQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=patrick%20pearse%20%26%20money&f=false

    I googled Patrick Pearse and money.

    The schools were a financial disaster -especially the move from Ranelagh to Rathfarnham. He had expected financial support from sources which did not materialise.

    Pearse had circa £6,000 in debt in 1914 and went on a fundraising trip to the US which was less successful than he had hoped -raising £3,000 and not £10,000 . His debts were just over £ 2000 at the time of his death.

    Inflation etc and problems brought about by the war upset him too and the precarious position of the schools must have lost him friends.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    So we know that 1909/10 was fairly tumultuos time personally for Patrick

    It ws also a time in Ireland where everything changed and everything stayed the same.

    1911 saw a growth in organised unions with Larkin & 1913 the general lock out and the 3rd Home Rule Bill.

    To put it in context for those who know little about the period and who was who.Here is a summary from the Census Site on what Dublin was like and what was happening.




    .

    Dublin Castle was the focal point of British rule in Ireland. Here is the Castle Yard as it was in the early 20th century.
    (NLI: EAS 1703 )
    And yet, in 1911, the notion of national independence seemed a distant illusion beside the reality of British rule. At the heart of the city stood the huge stone fort of Dublin Castle, constructed following a 1204 decision of King John, and the focal point of British rule in Ireland. Ireland had lost its parliament through the Act of Union in 1800 and all political power in Ireland flowed through the gates of the castle. In 1911 the Castle was presided over by the Lord Lieutenant, the Earl of Aberdeen, and run by the Chief Secretary, Augustine Birrell. The great administrative importance of the Castle and the government offices which stood in the most prestigious streets of the city defined the colonial nature of Dublin’s existence.
    The iconic streets of Bloomsday (16 June 1904, the date on which James Joyce set Ulysses and Leopold Bloom’s epic tour of Dublin) were already being lost. The city was changing as the suburbs grew in scale and importance. Nothing transformed the physical appearance of Dublin as profoundly as the evolution in transport. Trams, horses and bicycles still dominated transport in Dublin but the private motor car was growing in importance.
    A-Em_SackvilleSt.jpg Sackville Street c.1890-1910. It was here that John Redmond unveiled a monument to Charles Stewart Parnell in October 1911.
    (NLI: LROY 1662 )

    Dublin was also a port city, though not in the manner of Belfast, Liverpool or Glasgow. On 1 April 1911 the Titanic was launched from the Harland and Wolff Shipyards in Belfast; no project of this scale could be undertaken in Dublin. There was no major ship-building industry, no vast industrial sector, no sense of a place driven by the impulses of manufacturing entrepreneurs and their workforce.
    There was, of course, industry and innovation,, like Sir Howard Grubb’s telescope-making factory at Observatory Lane in Rathmines, but never on the scale of comparable cities in other parts of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. Administration and commerce, rather than industry, were what drove the city’s economy. Dublin port was more a transit point for British goods imported to Ireland and for the agricultural export trade of the city’s rural hinterland, not least the cattle boats that left at least seven times a day, as part of the eighty weekly sailings to England.
    A_SingleRoom_7.083.jpg Urban living: A dilapidated tenement room in the Coombe area in 1913.
    (RSAI, DD, No.83)

    Alongside the cattle on many of those boats were emigrants leaving a country unable to offer even the possibilities of a basic existence. Some were Dubliners, many were from the Irish countryside and were merely passing through the city, certain in the knowledge that there was simply no work available to them. Behind them they left the brutal reality of daily life for tens of thousands who lived in tenement slums, starved into ill-health, begging on the fringes of society. In parts, Dublin was incredibly poor. A notoriously high death-rate was attributable, at least in part, to the fact that 33% of all families lived in one-roomed accommodation. The slums of Dublin were the worst in the United Kingdom, dark, disease-ridden and largely ignored by those who prospered in other parts of the city.
    Even for those with work, life was precarious. Trade unions attempted to organise against the backdrop of low wages and chronic over-supply of labour. On 27 May 1911 James Larkin first published The Irish Worker, the paper of the Irish Transport and General Workers Union, which had enlisted 18,000 men into its ranks in just two years.
    Jim%20Larkin.jpg On 27 May 1911 Jim Larkin, pictured here, first published The Irish Worker, the paper of the Irish Transport and General Workers Union (NLI)

    Labour was growing increasingly militant, but its opponents were powerful and equally determined to resist change. William Martin Murphy founded the Dublin Employers’ Federation on 30 June. Murphy owned railways, tramways, Clery’s Department Store and, critically, the Irish Independent. The power of the employers was obvious as two major strikes during 1911, one by bakers, the other by railway workers, ended in abject defeat. As the Dublin economy continued to stagnate, strikes followed one after the next, and the greatest labour dispute in Irish history, the 1913 Lockout, was just around the corner.
    WelldressedCrowd_GreatExhib.jpg A well-dressed crowd attend the Great Exhibition, Herbert Park, 1907.
    (NLI: Clar 66)

    Dublin politics were not often about poverty, however. Of increasing political importance were the expanding Catholic middle classes, gaining steady prominence in the city’s professional and administrative ranks. Throughout the nineteenth century, power in Dublin slowly shifted from the Protestant ascendancy to an emerging Catholic elite, who were apparently nationalist in aspect. This nationalism, however, was ambiguous in its politics and in its culture.
    As the centre for British rule in Ireland for eight centuries, Dublin was the focal point of the substance and symbols of British culture. This culture – its literature, its newspapers, its sports, its music, its entertainment – was adopted with little modification by many amongst the middle classes, eager for advancement, unashamed by pursuit of prosperity.
    Pearse_984S1083.jpg Dublin was home to Patrick Pearse, whose work as a writer and educationalist was central to the Gaelic revival of the early 20th century.
    (NLI, 'Political and Famous Figures,' Box VI)

    In opposition to this, a resurgent nationalist culture was asserting itself uncertainly. Based on the premises (or perceived premises) of peasant life and traditions, revival of the Irish language, Irish dress, Irish music and Irish games, this was a resurgence which did not play easily with urban life. Dublin could not be easily accommodated in any vision which idealised rural life. And yet, Dublin lay at the heart of this Gaelic revival, home to Patrick Pearse and many of the writers, educationalists and intellectuals who recast the idea of Ireland as a sovereign Gaelic nation, free from the control of its imperial master.
    Their vision was often rural, but it was not provincial. The revivalists were acutely aware of what was happening beyond Irish shores, in Europe and in North America. All told, culture in the city was profoundly modern, even an inspiration for modernism. This was the city where James Joyce and William Butler Yeats had lived and worked, and where Samuel Beckett, 5 years old in 1911, would later study. Yeats, indeed, would continue to spend a great deal of time in Dublin in the following decades. And it was also the city of Sean O’Casey and the site for the endeavours of Lady Gregory. The Abbey Theatre had been established by Gregory and Yeats in 1904. The culture of Dublin was diverse, not narrow.
    The contested nature of culture in the capital was replicated in its politics. 1911 brought events which illustrated the breadth of its divisions. In July King George V spent six days in Dublin on a royal visit to the city. The King and the royal party, led by the 8th Royal Hussars on horseback, travelled from the harbour in Kingstown (now Dún Laoghaire) to Dublin Castle, as thousands lined the streets to view his procession.
    But, also in 1911, a Wicklow-born Protestant who was originally a strong supporter of the British Empire, Robert Erskine Childers, published his treatise, The Framework of Home Rule, which advocated the restoration of a parliament to Dublin. Childers would later be shot by firing squad by Government forces during the civil war, fought over a treaty which he was unwilling to support.
    By contrast, in September 1911, the unionist leader, Sir Edward Carson, born in Dublin and still an MP elected to the House of Commons by Trinity College, told an Orange Order meeting at Craigavon House: “We must be prepared … the morning Home Rule passes, ourselves to become responsible for the government of the Protestant province of Ulster.”
    And finally, in October 1911, a large crowd turned up in Sackville Street (now O’Connell St.) to see a monument unveiled to the great nationalist politician, Charles Stewart Parnell. The monument was unveiled by John Redmond, leader of the Irish national party, and its inscription was plain in its independent intent:
    A_JohnRedmond_publicmeeting.jpg John Redmond addressing a home rule meeting at Parnell Monument, 1912.
    (NLI: INDH 1)

    “No man has a right to fix the
    Boundary to the march of a nation.
    No man has a right
    To say to his country
    Thus far shalt thou
    Go and no further.”
    In the ferment of its politics, the vibrancy of its culture, the vertical divide of its religions, and the extraordinary disparity in its wealth, Dublin bore all the hallmarks of a city on the edge of enormous change. And the dynamic behind that change was the 477,196 people who lived in the city of Dublin and its county hinterland.

    http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/exhibition/dublin/main.html

    So we can see that there was a lot of change in the offing but not all of it good for Pearse.

    For a kick-off . He just cannot get the school of the ground financially. Lots has gone wrong in life. The timing of opening the school was bad and things were taking a turn for the worse.

    So what I am going to look at after this is the people Pearse was hanging with pre-1910 and post 1910 to see who influenced his views.

    He essentially moved from cultural revivalist to educational maverick and from Parnellite to Revoloutionary, and I think his efforts to keep the school open broadened his circle of friends.

    Thats just a hunch by the way.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    So who was Patrick Pearse hanging around with in those days.

    Post 1908 it wasThomas McDonagh, Con Colbert , Arthur Griffith & Bulmer Hobson
    After graduation from Royal University of Ireland he was called to the Bar, but he never practiced. He joined the Gaelic Leagueir?t=thewildgeeset-20&l=as2&o=1&a=0268034761 in 1895. In 1908, along with friends Thomas MacDonagh, Con Colbert, and his brother William, Pearse founded an Irish language school called St. Enda's at Cullenwood House in Rathmines, outside Dublin. Their school prospered, and in 1910 they moved it to The Hermitage, Rathfarnham, where Robert Emmet had courted Sarah Curran. The school operated until 1935, run eventually by Pearse's mother and sister, but none of the four founders of the school would see that day all four would be executed within five days of each other in May 1916.
    eastlogo.jpgEaster Monday was one of the most critical days in the history of Ireland. On that day, Irish Volunteer units and the Irish Citizen Army, led by Patrick Pearse and James Connolly, began their famous Easter Rising, seizing the General Post Office and other key locations around Dublin. Commemorate the men and woman who took on the British Empire against all odds with one of our "Heroes of the Easter Rising" items. Through these years Pearse was writing a great deal of prose and poetry, some in Irish and some in English, much of which was published after his death, and contributing articles to Arthur Griffith'sir?t=thewildgeeset-20&l=as2&o=1&a=0717110117 newspaper, The United Irishman. He was becoming more and more radical in his outlook on Irish nationalism, evolving from a supporter of Home Rule to a republican. In 1913, he was one of the founders of the Irish Volunteers, a native Irish militia that would evolve into the Irish Republican Army. Later the same year Pearse joined the secretive Irish Republican Brotherhoodir?t=thewildgeeset-20&l=as2&o=1&a=1851829210.
    In February 1914, Pearse traveled to the United States seeking money from the Irish-American community for his school and for the Irish Volunteers. He made contact with Joseph McGarrity and former Fenian John Devoyir?t=thewildgeeset-20&l=as2&o=1&a=0312181183, who helped him on both counts. In July 1914, in the famous Howth gun-running incident, the Irish Volunteers obtained weapons and ammunition. The organization now had the weapons and financial support it needed to consider the military action that many of them, including Pearse, believed necessary to end British rule in Ireland. "There are many things more horrible than bloodshed," Pearse had once written, "and slavery is one of them." In the militants' view, the circumstances were now rife for action, with the republicans possessing organization and weapons. Pearse felt ready to strike for his dream.



    http://www.thewildgeese.com/pages/pearse.html

    An important guy for Pearse in this period was Bulmer Hobson who was part of the Republican Revival in Belfast and who had also established the Dungannon Clubs and a School.

    He helped Pearse with his US fundraising

    More about him is here.

    http://www.nli.ie/1916/pdf/3.2.1.pdf

    So it seems to me that Pearses primary motivation at this time in his life was his school and Irish culture.

    He does not seem to have had an interest in social issues as a motivator

    I have found an on-line history of Conragh na Gaelige - now dont forget Pearse joined this when he was 16.

    His mentors would have been the likes of Dr Douglas Hyde , Eoin McNeill & Arthur Griffith..

    The debate loomed on whether Irish was a language and did it have literature etc

    So in his early 20's Pearse was heavily involved in Irish Language Promotion
    Pádraig Mac Piarais was secretary of the Publication Committee and he reported that aside from school books, and 40,000 propagandist pamphlets, they had begun to publish original literary works in Irish. The chief of these was Cormac Ua Conaill by An tAthair Pádraig Ó Duinnín. It was hailed as the first novel in the Irish language and, at the time, highly praised. Other works included collections of Irish stories, an original drama in Irish arranged by Carl Hardebeck. Pádraig Mac Piarais said while their work in publishing was essentially spiritual and intellectual it was proving to be a success commercially. The expenses were paid a few months after the issue of most books.

    It was sucessful

    The two years between 1903 and 1905 were in some ways the last period of mushroom growth to power and influence of Conradh na Gaeilge. In 1904 "An Claidheamh Soluis" reached its highest ever circulation, over 3,000 copies weekly. It declined almost every year afterwards. The number of registered branches had almost reached its peak-860 in 1905, one of them in Oxford University, England. It was in 1904 that the activities of An Conradh brought down the British Government at Westminister.

    It had become apolitical but sometimes said controvercial things like calling John Redmond the great Anglisiser.


    The question as to where the Gaelic League stood in relation to the political parties was raised frequently as it gathered strength. About 1898 An Conradh thought it was not getting the support it deserved from Irish-American newspapers such as The Irish World. It was discovered that this newspaper, and many people in America, thought the Gaelic League was against the parliamentarians who were looking for Home Rule. To counter this impression Douglas Hyde wrote a long letter to the editor or The Irish World. He explained that Conradh na Gaeilge could not pledge allegiance to any political party. He said by remaining independent it allowed people to join a truly Irish and truly national movement without danger to themselves. According to the law, civil servants could not be members of political parties but they could join Conradh na Gaeilge. As well as this An Conradh brought people together who had fallen out as a result of the Parnell split, he said. Following this letter The Irish World co-operated by publishing news about the Gaelic League, and even passed on donation from readers.

    He got to mix with Yeats, Lady Gregory etc and the literati who were all part of the " Green Scene"
    The founders of the Abbey Theatre were present at the inaugural meeting of the Kiltartan, Contae na Gaillimhe, Craobh of Conradh na Gaeilge. W.B. Yeats, who was accompanied by Edward Martyn and Lady Gregory, said at the meeting: "Every nation has its own duty in the world, its own message to deliver and the message is to a considerable extent bound up with the language. The nations make a part of one harmony, just as the colours of the rainbow make a part of one harmony of beautiful colour. It is our duty to keep the message, the colour which God has committed to us, clear, pure and shining."

    He also looked to get original writing in Irish via An Claidhwanh Soluis


    Pádraig Mac Piarais, writing in An Claidheamh Soluis in 1906 gave the following advice to anyone trying to write in Irish: "We would have our literature modern not only in the sense of freely borrowing every modern form which it does not posses and which it is capable of assimilating, but also in texture, tone and outlook. This is the 20th century; and no literature can take root in the 20th century which is not of the 20th century. We want no Gothic revival. We would have the problems of today fearlessly dealt with in Irish; the loves and hates and desires and doubts of modern men and women. The drama of the land war; the tragedy of the emigration mania; the stress and poetry and comedy of the language movement; the pathos and vulgarity of Anglo-Ireland; the abounding interest of Irish politics; the relations of priests to people; the perplexing education riddle; the drink evil; the increase in lunacy; such social problems as (say) the loveless marriage; these are matters which loom large in our daily lives, which build considerably in our daily conversations; but we find not the faintest echoes of them in the Irish books that are being written. There would seem to be an amazing conspiracy among our writers to refrain absolutely from dealing with life, the one thing which, properly considered, literature has any concern!"

    So in general , life was pretty good for young Pearse.

    The full story of CnG is here and it is short and laid out it short paragraphs and gives a feel for the revivalist movement Pearse was a part of.

    http://irish-nationalism.net/showthread.php/846-Conradh-na-Gaeilge-History.

    http://irish-nationalism.net/showthread.php/846-Conradh-na-Gaeilge-History.

    As far as I can see Pearses real dream was more around culture and language and education.

    His entrance into the republican movement as such cme about thru his fundraising and promotion of these issues.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,488 ✭✭✭Denerick


    Its well known that Pearse basically stubled into the Republican movement, almost by accident. His rhetoric grew stronger and stronger in the years up to 1916. He was a supporter of Home Rule for most of life mainly because it would give control over education policy to the Irish - something very personal to him.

    Pearse's educational philosophy stems from the Belgian system, an altogether more enlightened system of education (And probably the basis for our modern system; even if it is flawed it is much better than the old fashioned 'smack it into them with a cane' technique) I think it would be fair to say that prior to 1912 or so, Pearses great passion in life was the Gaelic Language and education.

    Brian Inglis' book on Roger Casement contains some interesting information about Pearse and the Gaelic movement as a whole, there are a few chapters there that may be of interest to some here. Casement considered putting his two adopted children/wards* into Pearses school but decided against it in the end.

    * They were indigenous Peruvian adolescents. Some malicious commentors have since suggested that Casements relationship with these two lads was sexual in nature... Of course it is both impossible to prove but also highly unlikely given his nature. If Casement was homosexual (I believe he was) it does not necessarily mean he was also a pederast, which seems to be the basis for these malicious suspicions)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 45 Mairin1978


    Has anyone read "A Dark Day on the Blaskets"? It's probably the only book that explores the relationship of Pearse and Eveleen Nicholl in depth. I live in the US, where this book was not released. I found it by accident on Amazon.uk.co. A truly eye-opening read.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,488 ✭✭✭Denerick


    After Pearse's death his formidable mother took over the running of the school. Pearse spent most of his career chasing money off people to help keep the thing afloat, and I believe a wealthy benefactor cancelled his debts following his demise. His mother pretty much ruined what was left of the school, it became a dank and ultra conservative hole, dominated mainly by rote learning of the Catholic catechism. It shut down eventually, as the ethos of the school was linked to Pearse via an umbilical cord. A shame really; whatever I think about the mans politics he was at least a dedicated and inspiring educationalist, a forerunner of our modern system.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Denerick wrote: »

    Pearse's educational philosophy stems from the Belgian system, an altogether more enlightened system of education (And probably the basis for our modern system; even if it is flawed it is much better than the old fashioned 'smack it into them with a cane' technique) I think it would be fair to say that prior to 1912 or so, Pearses great passion in life was the Gaelic Language and education.

    That seems to be the time alright 1912 -13 when he veered of in that direction.

    Pearse himself was educated at the Christian Brothers .

    So I wonder could we plot out some key events between then and his death.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    1916 has been written about extensively and factually we know what happened.But what type of a man was Pearse - his behavior and what did others think of him.

    A thread has started on Bulmer Hobson and that gives some idea of what he was like.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055602801
    CDfm wrote: »
    If you scroll down to page 18 & 19 here you will see a copy of Hobsons signed statement on this to th Bureau of Military History from 1948.

    http://www.nli.ie/1916/pdf/3.2.1.pdf

    If I am not mistaken Hobson obtained the letters( written by Pearse) and donated them to the National Archive.

    A possible reason for Pearses behaviour was that he was very short of money and hoped to raise 10,000 dollars from his 1913 Lecture Tour which Hobson was very influential in arrangeing.He got 3,000 dollars.

    Given that they were both raising funds from the same sources Pearse treated him as the competition.

    I reckon Hobson had a legitimate reason to dislike and feel agrieved as he had stepped in and helped another nationalist educator.

    That is how it appears to me.
    Mairin1978 wrote: »
    Yep, I've been through all those letters whilst doing research for my novel. I wonder how Hobson got his hands on those letters. No doubt, Joe McGarrity and John Devoy must have handed those over to him. Pearse really was a fast learner when it came to intrigue. Hobson was a very honest and straightforward man, which in the end worked against him. Pearse and McDermott were schemers. Hobson never went behind anyone's back. It's really heartbreaking that Hobson's friends turned against him. Countess Markiewicz, whom he brought into the Sinn Fein movement, later accused him of having done so only to annoy Griffiths. Kathleen Clarke accused him of having used Daly, her firstborn, to manipulate his way into the Clarke family, which is ridiculous. He showed so much kindness to so many people on so many occasions, and every time this kindness blew up in his face.

    Just to put it in comtext here is a Pearse timelime - from when Patrick & Willie inherited a very sucessful stone and ecclesiastical monument business in 1900 until 1916.


    newpearse.jpgChronology of Pádraic Pearse
    1879 : born Dublin to Irish mother and English father 1893: began learning Irish October 1896: joined Gaelic League which was only three years old, attended the Central branch 1896: became pupil-teacher at Christian Brothers School, Westland Row, Dublin June 1898: sat Matriculation examination of the Royal University; later that year began private study for two years towards the B.A. degree (attended University College Dublin for part of the third); also studied at the same time at Trinity College Dublin for King's Inns Summer 1898: co-opted to the Executive Committee of the Gaelic League; first visit to Aran 1899: taught a weekly class in Irish in the then Jesuit University College Dublin; James Joyce was one of his pupils for a short time. Later taught at Alexandra College, CBS Westland Row and was examiner in Irish history at Clongowes College September 1900: father died, Pearse and his brother Willie left the thriving stone-carving business which was renamed Pearse & Sons June 1901: took final exams at the Royal University and at King's Inns; awarded 2nd class B.A. in modern languages (Irish, English, French) and B.L.; called to the Bar
    March 1903: became editor of An Claidheamh Soluis (journal of the Gaelic League): held this position until late in 1909 1905: took his only case as barrister, acted for the Gaelic League; Poll an Piobaire (The Piper's Cave) published 1905 June: visited Belgium to examine the continental system of education in a bilingual country; this visit formed the basis of nearly fifty articles and editorials 1906: writing as Colm Ó Conaire published prose poems 1907: Íosagán agus Sgéalta Eile (Little Jesus and other Stories) published 1908 September: opened school St Enda's (Scoil Éanna) at Cullenswood House, Rathmines, Dublin; St Enda's finally closed in 1935 1909 December: poem 'A Mhic Bhig na gCleas' (Little Lad of the Tricks) written 1910: Pearse & Sons dissolved; St Enda's moved to The Hermitage, Rathfarnham; St Ita's school for girls founded. Got into debt due to over-expansion of schools; supported, with his brother, their mother and two sisters 1912: An Rí (The King) produced 1913 November 11: Irish Volunteers' first meeting at which Pearse attended: a non-political organization 1913 December: swore the oath of the Irish Republican Brotherhood, infiltrated the Irish Volunteers 1914 February 8: left Ireland from Cóbh for America to raise funds for St Enda's; returned in May 1914: during the summer the Volunteers received arms from Erksine Childers' yacht; Pearse stored some of these in St Enda's 1914 December: appointed director of military organization in Volunteers 1915 March 10: appointed commandant unattached to any battalion; involved in drilling and exercising troops 1915 August 1: gave oration at O'Donovan Rossa graveside in Glasnevin Cemetery, Dublin 1915 September: appointed to the eleven-man Supreme Council of the IRB 1916 April: preparations became intense for rising on Easter Sunday; Pearse issued "General Orders" for manoeuvres on 3 April 1916 April 25 (Easter Monday): walked from Liberty Hall with James Connolly to the General Post Office with soldiers; occupied GPO for five days; was one of seven who signed the Proclamation of Independence 1916 April 28: issued manifesto, signed as P.H. Pearse Commandant General, Commanding-in-Chief, the Army of the Irish Republic and President of the Provisional Government 1916 April 29 (Friday): unconditional surrender of GPO and Provisional forces to the British Army; taken to Arbour Hill Barracks, moved to Richmond Barracks for court-martial 1916 May 3: killed by firing-squad 3.30 am, as was his brother Willie; both buried in quick lime in Arbour Hill

    http://www.ucc.ie/celt/pearse.html

    Now between 1908 and 1910 the once succssful business had been liquidated to subsidise Patricks school business.

    It seems to me Pearses manner with dealing with people like the Church, local authorities etc.

    All the kinds of people that he needed for the sucess of th stone business and the school.

    That does not take away from his achievements and in no way am I questioning his patriotism

    My grandfather who fought in 1916 would have viewed him as a poet. In West Cork , I don't think blood sacrifice was a popular idea but he also said that the British/anglo Irish ascendency would not have given up power volunterally.

    A lot of people were upset about a Home Rule not becoming a reality in 1913 despite the Home Rule Act.

    They saw all these men going to War and fighting Germany and the casualties. So maybe that put armed revoloution up the agenda and war was in the air.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    I have read that Michael Collins didn't think that Pearse was a good leader having fought beside him in 1916.

    He was "President of the Provisional Government" but was he just its Titular head or did he really lead.

    He wrote well and his soundbites are class- A country without a language has no soul. Magic.

    Court martial speech - wow.

    • "When I was a child of ten, I went on my bare knees by my bedside one night and promised God that I should devote my Life to an effort to free my country. I have kept the promise. I have helped to organise, to train, and to discipline my fellow-countrymen to the sole end that, when the time came, they might fight for Irish freedom. The time, as it seemed to me, did come, and we went into the fight. I am glad that we did. We seem to have lost; but we have not lost. To refuse to fight would have been to lose; to fight is to win. We have kept faith with the past, and handed on its tradition to the future. I repudiate the assertion of the Prosecutor that I sought to aid and abet England’s enemy. Germany is no more to me than England is. I asked and accepted German aid in the shape of arms and an expeditionary force; we neither asked for nor accepted German gold, nor had any traffic with Germany but what I state. My object was to win Irish freedom. We struck the first blow ourselves, but I should have been glad of an ally’s aid. I assume that I am speaking to Englishmen who value their freedom, and who profess to be fighting for the freedom of Belgium and Serbia. Believe that we too love freedom and desire it. To us it is more than anything else in the world. If you strike us down now, we shall rise again, and renew the fight. You cannot conquer Ireland; you cannot extinguish the Irish passion for freedom. If our deed has not been sufficient to win freedom, then our children will win it by a better deed.”
      • Patrick Pearse at his court-martial.Publish by the 75th Anniversary Committee, Dublin, 1991.
    URL="http://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Patrick_Pearse&action=edit&section=2"]edit[/URL Quotes about Pearse

    • "I have just done one of the hardest tasks I have ever had to do. I have had to condemn to death one of the finest characters I have ever come across. There must be something very wrong in the state of things that makes a man like that a rebel. I don't wonder that his pupils adored him." http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Patrick_Pearse

    He had joined the IRB & Irish Volunteers in 1914 so he had just over 2 years involvement in paramilitary activity he lead the rising.

    Early Life Michael Collins first became well-known during the Easter Rising in 1916. A skilled organiser of considerable intelligence, he was highly respected in the IRB, so much so that he was made 'financial adviser' to Count Plunkett, father of one of the Rising's organisers, Joseph Mary Plunkett. When the Rising itself took place, he fought alongside Patrick Pearse and others in the General Post Office in Dublin. The Rising became (as expected by many) a military disaster. While many celebrated the fact that a Rising had happened at all, believing in the theory of blood sacrifice (namely that the deaths of the Rising's leaders would inspire others), Collins railed against what he perceived as its ham-fisted amateurism, notably the seizure of prominent buildings such as the GPO that were impossible to defend, impossible to escape from and difficult to supply. (During the War of Independence he ensured the avoidance of such tactics of 'becoming sitting targets', with his soldiers operating as flying columns who waged a guerrilla war against the British, suddenly attacking then just as quickly suddenly withdrawing, minimising losses and maximising effectiveness

    http://www.emerald-isle-gifts.com/irish-historical-pictures/irish-propaganda-posters-mounted/free-state-rally-poster-michael-collins.asp

    Also , Sinn Fein wrongly attributed by the press and British Govrnmnt as the political movement behind the rising found prominence.

    So there was no real plan in place as to what would happen afterwards.
    Collins, like many of the Rising's participants, was arrested and sent to Frongoch internment camp in Wales. There, as his contemporaries expected, his leadership skills showed. By the time of the general release, Collins had already become one of the leading figures in the post-Rising Sinn Féin, a small nationalist party which the British government and the Irish media wrongly blamed for the Rising. It was quickly infiltrated by survivors of the Rising, so as to capitalise on the 'notoriety' the innocent movement had gained through British attacks. By October 1917, through skill and ability, Collins had risen to become a member of the Executive of Sinn Féin and Director of Organization of the Irish Volunteers; Eamon de Valera was president of both organisations

    This part does puzzle me - what was his real role and how much was he carried along by others and by events.

    He carried a sword with him to give to General Lowe on surrender and Lowe did not seem to know what to do with it.

    Moreover, Willie his brother, who was his aide during the rising and who did not have an active role in the organisation of the rising or the fighting got executed too.

    So how are we to look at it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,260 ✭✭✭PatsytheNazi


    Mairin1978 wrote: »
    Has anyone read "A Dark Day on the Blaskets"? It's probably the only book that explores the relationship of Pearse and Eveleen Nicholl in depth. I live in the US, where this book was not released. I found it by accident on Amazon.uk.co. A truly eye-opening read.
    Very interesting Mairin1978. Here is a review of it on Amazon, as the contributor states " her early loss was not just a profound personal one to Mac Piarais (and may well have altered the course of his life ". Though obviously the book is primarily about her, it seems to give a more humane insight into Pearse, instead of those who are quite clearly hostile and openly have an agenda to turn him into a monster such as the usual culprits Eoghan Harris, Ruth Dudley Edwards, Meyers etc

    " This book is one of the very few accounts of the life (and death) of Éibhlín Nic Niocaill, a brilliant, early 20th Century Irish language activist, writer and poet who was the love interest of the young Irish revolutionary, Pádraig Mac Piarais (Padraig Pearse). She was in the vanguard of the emergence of women into Irish society and politics on an equal footing with men and her early loss was not just a profound personal one to Mac Piarais (and may well have altered the course of his life leading to his own premature death) but also the Irish language and women's movements in Ireland as a whole. "

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/product-reviews/0863223370/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    . Though obviously the book is primarily about her, it seems to give a more humane insight into Pearse, instead of those who are quite clearly hostile and openly have an agenda to turn him into a monster such as the usual culprits Eoghan Harris, Ruth Dudley Edwards, Meyers etc

    Patsy -I am no fan of Dudley Edwards or Myers when it comes to Pearse but I must confess - my opinion of Pearse has gone down rather than up since I started looking him up.

    He comes accross as very selfish and opportunistic.

    Now there are a lot of gaps in the info I have posted and I posted as I found , starting, by looking for sculptures by his dad and brother.

    So what are your thoughts on him and do you like him.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,488 ✭✭✭Denerick


    CDfm wrote: »
    Patsy -I am no fan of Dudley Edwards or Myers when it comes to Pearse but I must confess - my opinion of Pearse has gone down rather than up since I started looking him up.

    He comes accross as very selfish and opportunistic.

    Now there are a lot of gaps in the info I have posted and I posted as I found , starting, by looking for sculptures by his dad and brother.

    So what are your thoughts on him and do you like him.

    Pearse is a founding father of the Republic (And most certainly the Irish Sibyl); hence he is immune to criticism. This is the unfortunate reality of certain mindsets.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Denerick wrote: »
    Pearse is a founding father of the Republic (And most certainly the Irish Sibyl); hence he is immune to criticism. This is the unfortunate reality of certain mindsets.

    Ah cmon - I go out on a limb all the time and provided I look at things factually I usually get a fair hearing.

    I would like to see what you have to say.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 45 Mairin1978


    Very interesting Mairin1978. Here is a review of it on Amazon, as the contributor states " her early loss was not just a profound personal one to Mac Piarais (and may well have altered the course of his life ". Though obviously the book is primarily about her, it seems to give a more humane insight into Pearse, instead of those who are quite clearly hostile and openly have an agenda to turn him into a monster such as the usual culprits Eoghan Harris, Ruth Dudley Edwards, Meyers etc

    I don't know if anyone ever regarded Pearse as a Monster. Edwards certainly did not portray him that way. Monster is a strong word. One doesn't need to be a monster to be make bad decisions that put more than one person in danger.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,488 ✭✭✭Denerick


    CDfm wrote: »
    Ah cmon - I go out on a limb all the time and provided I look at things factually I usually get a fair hearing.

    I would like to see what you have to say.

    To be fair I wasn't talking about you. You clearly haven't canonised the man, like some here have.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 45 Mairin1978


    Denerick wrote: »
    Pearse is a founding father of the Republic (And most certainly the Irish Sibyl); hence he is immune to criticism. This is the unfortunate reality of certain mindsets.

    Gosh, nobody is immune to criticism. In fact, people should be more careful about elevating random individuals to the ranks of saints. First they praise them and then they tear them down. That's what happened to Clarke and Hobson. Clarke said: "I love Hobson like I love my own son", and then, when Hobson did something Clarke disagreed with, he accused him of being an informant.


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