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Politics Cafe "civility" standards

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  • 30-06-2015 6:28pm
    #1
    alaimacerc
    Registered Users Posts: 7,224 ✭✭✭


    I'm extremely unhappy about lack of any coherency and consistency in civility standards in the Politics Cafe.

    First, the particular case as it applies to me. I've just been banned from the Cafe for a day for a post to the Sinn Fein thread:
    alaimacerc wrote: »
    billy few mates wrote: »
    Now that Happy is gone to bed for the night and left you in charge of the thread, do you want to continue with the light hearted 'Bon Homie' or would you like to give us your take on the Greek Eurozone crisis and the ramifications on Sinn Fein's position on austerity....? :)

    Apparently the former. Normal davy service will be resumed once he has some Happy posts to thank.

    I would characterise that as "mildly sarcastic", at worst. The banning mod deemed it to be "Trolling", and furthermore described it as "bickering" in a later PM.

    The context for this is earlier repeated warnings from the mods about civility. Which were certainly justified -- some of the incivility earlier in the thread was indeed pretty extreme. The implementation of this, however, very much smacks of "shoot a few on each side, pour encourager les autres". That's not at all how one will establish any discernible norms for thread behaviour.

    Accordingly, I would like the ban rescinded as hugely disproportionate. Failing that, I would like it rescoped to apply to only the thread where this particular (and doubtless temporary) exception to the "fairly relaxed" standards of the PC was apparently in place.


    Which brings me to the wider point. The standard of enforcement of civility across the Cafe is wildly inconsistent. I invite comparison of the above rather mild-mannered exchange to any of the posts I've reported myself. Accusations of "irrationality", "Fascism", "gobbledegook", "shilling", etc are rife -- and if the lack of any enforcement action over them is anything to go by, apparently accepted as "Cafe banter". (I'd provide links, but what with being banned from the entire Forum, that presents an obvious technical difficulty.)


    Lastly, I don't really see the logic of serious political topics -- like water charges and Sinn Fein, for example -- being consigned to the Cafe in the first place. It inevitably leads to the above sort of thing. Someone makes an apparently political point, but when challenged on it, reverts to petty abuse. Or just starts in on the petty abuse against the other "side" pre-emptively, come to that. I'd personally like to just be able to have a discussion about these things without wildly oscillating expectations. Between being shouted down by people substituting angry (or opportunistic) invective for having any actual political point, on the one hand. And having to walk on suddenly, arbitrarily imposed eggshells on the other.
    Tagged:


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    #2
    Taltos
    Registered Users Posts: 20,830 ✭✭✭✭Taltos


    OP

    DRP is just here to discuss cards/bans as they apply to you.
    Wider discussions around actions against other members or anything in relation to general Cafe modding are not going to be discussed here.

    So - following the process above.
    Can you please confirm you have completed the first stage and attempted to resolve your ban with the relevant mod?
    Once you do and if you still want to contest the ban if it has not been rescinded, I'll begin my review of your post and your history in the cafe.

    Thanks
    Taltos


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    #3
    alaimacerc
    Registered Users Posts: 7,224 ✭✭✭alaimacerc


    Taltos wrote: »
    OP

    DRP is just here to discuss cards/bans as they apply to you.
    Wider discussions around actions against other members or anything in relation to general Cafe modding are not going to be discussed here.

    So - following the process above.
    Can you please confirm you have completed the first stage and attempted to resolve your ban with the relevant mod?
    Once you do and if you still want to contest the ban if it has not been rescinded, I'll begin my review of your post and your history in the cafe.

    Thanks
    Taltos

    OK, will take my thoughts about the Cafe in general elsewhere. (Once I work out where, at least.)

    Yes, I've exchanged several PMs (alluded to above in the comment about "bickering") with the Mod implementing the ban, including my formally stating, for the avoidance of any doubt, "I wish to appeal this". Essentially all the replies just restated the original opinion, and did nothing to address the issue of context or consistency.

    Cheers,
    Alai.


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    #4
    Taltos
    Registered Users Posts: 20,830 ✭✭✭✭Taltos


    OK - please send me on that PM exchange where you discussed with the mod your ban.


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    #5
    Taltos
    Registered Users Posts: 20,830 ✭✭✭✭Taltos


    Cheers for the PM.

    I've read it and your posts from the time of this warning.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=96048547&postcount=2113

    To be blunt the mods could have chosen any number of your posts to card, your "fun" crossed the line repeatedly in terms of baiting or just plain insult. You might think you were having fun but you crossed a line.

    While the Cafe is meant to be light-hearted and is modded with that mindset I am amazed that the mods chose only to action one post with a one day ban and not more. Frankly while you might not see it right now they cut you a break, see this ban for what it is meant as the previous warnings, infractions and on thread mod notes haven't worked - take care how you post. As the mods have noted they're volunteers and frankly having to review and dig through the volume of reported posts impacts their ability to manage other threads. This is one of those rare times I am inclined to increase the mod action but I really do hope you take their warning to heart, otherwise the next ban may be significantly longer.

    If you can't accept my ruling you are free to challenge it by requesting an admin review.
    So - mark this as resolved or do you want that review?

    (Once this is complete you can raise your concerns with the cafe in the following manner
    > PM the mod team directly with your concerns
    > Escalate to the CatMod team - Scofflaw; mike_ie; bluewolf; Taltos
    > Create a Help Desk thread providing clear evidence of your concerns. Please note - before doing this please read the charter there and read some similar threads. This is your direct line to the Admin team.


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    #6
    alaimacerc
    Registered Users Posts: 7,224 ✭✭✭alaimacerc


    Link not especially useful... as I can't read it, because I'm banned. As also previously noted. I believe I recall its approximate timing, though, assuming it's the most recent one. Or any of my other posts, for that matter, so I'm not in much of a position to reflect on your judgement on them.

    Who said anything about "fun"? The entire thread was getting very, very unpleasant, and essentially precluding any actual political discussion. It's the selective enforcement that's galling.

    And "crossing the line" is remarkably meaningless in a context where "the line" wanders all over the place. One day being called a "shill" and "sheep" is perfectly fine... the next, I'm forum-banned for suggesting someone's posts are of a poor quality?

    "Be grateful you didn't get worse" is not in the least helpful, either. Am I to take that as a disincentive from asking for further review?


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    #7
    Taltos
    Registered Users Posts: 20,830 ✭✭✭✭Taltos


    Not at all - will flag this for admin review since you are unhappy with my decision.


  • Options
    #8
    alaimacerc
    Registered Users Posts: 7,224 ✭✭✭alaimacerc


    As I said to Taltos in PM, "unhappy" is certainly accurate, though I hadn't really made up my mind on whether to "appeal the appeal". Especially given the apparent double bind that appeals may look at unspecified additional posts -- that I couldn't see right now anyway, even if they'd been linked to -- vs the implication that sanctions ramp up for subsequent "offences" in any case. Oh well.

    In either event, it's taken 20h of a 24h ban (with the above caveats, of course...) to get to this point, and I'm off to bed soon. In any event the "consistency of standards" point is the more significant one for me, so I'll raise that elsewhere.


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    #9
    Gordon
    Registered Users Posts: 35,523 ✭✭✭✭Gordon


    Taltos wrote: »
    To be blunt the mods could have chosen any number of your posts to card, your "fun" crossed the line repeatedly in terms of baiting or just plain insult.
    This is exactly what I thought when I read your post. I initially thought flame baiting, then trolling, then bickering, then flame baiting again. It's just dragging the discussion down. And it doesn't help the rest of the people that want to have/read a discussion without that type of chat.

    Also, looking at your history in that forum - you've been given plenty sufficient guidance by ways of infractions and warnings on your behaviour there. If you haven't learned via warnings, bans are the next step. And I too am surprised you only got 1 day ban.
    alaimacerc wrote: »
    The entire thread was getting very, very unpleasant, and essentially precluding any actual political discussion.
    And yet you thought it ok to keep that unpleasant tone going.

    The ban was justified in my opinion. Please be mindful of how you post in future.


This discussion has been closed.
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