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Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

24567…324

Comments

  • #32
    Kingdom
    Registered Users Posts: 998 ✭✭✭Kingdom


    Why is there no rail line to Shannon?


  • #33
    T Corolla
    Closed Accounts Posts: 611 ✭✭✭T Corolla


    You would think they would align the railway to areas of high population densities. It would make scence to have the airport on the line instead of some of the smaller towns


  • #34
    DWCommuter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭DWCommuter


    T Corolla wrote: »
    You would think they would align the railway to areas of high population densities. It would make scence to have the airport on the line instead of some of the smaller towns

    Comes back to the point I made about the WRC only making a semblence of sense if it had been realigned to make it more viable. Of course Government would never have considered it at the higher cost. Instead we get the results of mere whims and fantasies.


  • #35
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    T Corolla wrote: »
    You would think they would align the railway to areas of high population densities. It would make scence to have the airport on the line instead of some of the smaller towns

    no it wouldnt....where would air passengers be going to and from in Ireland? Are there direct fast rail links to those places? To have a sucessful airport link that means anything you would need a frequent service direct from Airport to a very large centre of population...the west of Ireland does not have this....in fact Dublin barely qualifies.


  • #36
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Those population numbers are too crude , they leave out the likes of the Tuam Rural ED while showing only the Tuam Urban. The population over each ED within 5 miles of a station is what should be counted.

    Craughwell with only 400 is wrong, is that the Craughwell ED only or the village only?? What about nearby EDs ???


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  • #37
    Hungerford
    Registered Users Posts: 912 ✭✭✭Hungerford


    Kingdom wrote: »
    Why is there no rail line to Shannon?

    The technical reason is that it would require a six-mile spur off the Limerick to Ennis line, which is single [with no double track sections] throughout. As for the political...


  • #38
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    Hungerford wrote: »
    The technical reason is that it would require a six-mile spur off the Limerick to Ennis line, which is single [with no double track sections] throughout. As for the political...

    or a park and ride at 6milebridge with a bus link....either way though there simply wouldnt be the traffic density necessary.


  • #39
    dowlingm
    Registered Users Posts: 5,309 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    Kingdom wrote: »
    Why is there no rail line to Shannon?
    Because Shannon was created as a New Town in an era (late 60s) when the car was deemed to have replaced the need for rail. The notion of rail-focused districts like Adamstown was unimaginable and politically a non-starter I'd say - especially when large scale developments were almost exclusively driven by the public purse and not private developers. The current layout of the town might make finding an alignment today which isn't deathly slow or away from demand centres tough.

    The time to build the rail line was years ago when the Free Zone was still doing a certain amount of trade - it could have formed a long passing loop or simply slewed away from Sixmilebridge completely - but the line would still likely be electric staff not CTC and subject to all sorts of capacity constraints, cheaping out of grade separation and being generally labour intensive to operate. It also would have been industrial policy and as we saw in Foynes that's not how IE sees their role - especially when money isn't forthcoming for investments that will pay their return (increased economic activity, reduced road maintenence costs, reduced CO2 emissions) largely outside IE's coffers.


  • #40
    dowlingm
    Registered Users Posts: 5,309 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    Craughwell-Galway by No.20 Bus Eireann or Citylink - 25mins.
    How long from Craughwell to Galway by train in the 2010 timetable? We don't know for sure yet but to beat the bus it's got to be less than 10 minutes from departing Craughwell and departing Athenry (assuming an average of the timetabled inbound and outbound times) - which let's face it, it won't be, since it's six miles plus acceleration and deceleration and changing ends - and from an environmental perspective you've done that to haul someone about one third faster in distance terms.

    At least one third of the catchment is going to be in the direct path to Galway so you can forget about that, plus some of the rest will be impinged by the proximity of Ardrahan. The projections for catchment growth in WoT/mayoireland.ie documents probably involved estates which either have tumbleweed blowing through them or are flooded fields "with Full PP".

    I don't say this to knock you Sponge Bob personally, I know it might read like that but it's time for the Church of Fr. MacGreil to be replaced by the Church of Harsh Reality as it is being in other areas and in a year of reduced PSO and no fare hike losses suffered by this line will directly impact service to existing IE customers because something somewhere will be cut.

    I take my cue on these issues from this guy who says in a year of cutbacks the ethical approach is to defer new services not cut existing ones to jam in the new one.

    This is the Transport 21/Irish Rail business case for Ennis-Athenry from February 06 (PDF). That the line speed would be about 50mph with a maximum of 60mph is covered on page 14.
    "Due to the inherited configuration of the line there will be speed restrictions on the line, with maximum speeds of 60mph, subject to the elimination of crossings. These restrictions will reduce the competitive advantage of rail travel relative to road based travel when the N18 is fully upgraded. [...] A maximum line speed of 50mph would result in a two hour journey between Limerick and Galway."

    It explicitly says that the 22Ks will not be used but rather will provide surplus 27xx sets when deployed to Kerry. The DofT knows well that this is a warmed-up track, not a high speed shuttle. Senator Fidelma Healy Eames should have known, not least before writing this on December 3. I have posted a reply to her site and I'm sure it will be through the moderation process in no time...

    The Project Appraisal on page 17 is a joke because most of the high scoring items are ones that IE has no responsibility for and/or will not supply and the item in respect of integration to the Intercity network is not true because the 2010 timetable makes no effort whatever to link in to Dublin services and the disjointed nature of Ennis-Limerick-Limerick Junction service is continued. Meanwhile the economic return gets a minimum score.

    The danger here of course is that while Brian Cowen had no direct personal interest in the WRC - some might say that indeed if the resources allocated to Ennis-Athenry had been rescheduled to fall behind Galway-Oranmore-Athenry and not in front, Clara and Tullamore would have *better* service to the West and fewer delays of trains heading eastward to Dublin - the Leader of the Opposition can feather his own nest by promising rails to Mayo.

    It is time for Ireland to get out of the industrial and social policy business of rail expansions because it is nothing but a front for political interests over cost-benefit analysis and instead commit to Irish Rail a sum of money over 10 years which they must spend and account for the benefit thereafter. If that means it is spent on improving services being taken rather than instituting new service while running a sardine service with inadequate track paths, so be it.


  • #41
    T Corolla
    Closed Accounts Posts: 611 ✭✭✭T Corolla


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Those population numbers are too crude , they leave out the likes of the Tuam Rural ED while showing only the Tuam Urban. The population over each ED within 5 miles of a station is what should be counted.

    Craughwell with only 400 is wrong, is that the Craughwell ED only or the village only?? What about nearby EDs ???

    I have my supscions about those figures. Clairemorris with only 2,500 people I assumed Clairemorris would be in the same size region as Tullamore. I checked it up again and on the mayo.ie website the pop of Clairemorris is 3170 and the pop of Mayo is 130,000. They are a bit spread of and this is one of the issues with the WRC


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  • #42
    dowlingm
    Registered Users Posts: 5,309 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    Census 2006 - http://beyond2020.cso.ie/Census/TableViewer/tableView.aspx?ReportId=75472
    Mayo 123,839,
    Claremorris 3170
    Claremorris rural area incl. Claremorris and Ballyhaunis 14177.
    Tuam urban 2697 rural 4622 rural area incl. both 30772.

    Galway County/City 231670 (City only: 71,983)
    Gort district has ended up with two halts in an area total of 12540.
    Athenry and Craughwell are part of the Loughrea district (not surprising since they are only six miles apart) at 4042 and 1363 respectively.


  • #43
    Kingdom
    Registered Users Posts: 998 ✭✭✭Kingdom


    dowlingm wrote: »
    Because Shannon was created as a New Town in an era (late 60s) when the car was deemed to have replaced the need for rail. The notion of rail-focused districts like Adamstown was unimaginable and politically a non-starter I'd say - especially when large scale developments were almost exclusively driven by the public purse and not private developers. The current layout of the town might make finding an alignment today which isn't deathly slow or away from demand centres tough.

    The time to build the rail line was years ago when the Free Zone was still doing a certain amount of trade - it could have formed a long passing loop or simply slewed away from Sixmilebridge completely - but the line would still likely be electric staff not CTC and subject to all sorts of capacity constraints, cheaping out of grade separation and being generally labour intensive to operate. It also would have been industrial policy and as we saw in Foynes that's not how IE sees their role - especially when money isn't forthcoming for investments that will pay their return (increased economic activity, reduced road maintenence costs, reduced CO2 emissions) largely outside IE's coffers.

    Much appreciated.


  • #44
    Eason Large Quail
    Posts: 0 ✭ Eason Large Quail


    I'm a bit unsure about wading back into this. I have to say I'm very pleased with how things have progressed in here over the past 3 pages, and I restrained myself from posting before because I beleived it risked derailing (hey hey!) the conversation.

    But....
    dowlingm wrote: »
    Craughwell-Galway by No.20 Bus Eireann or Citylink - 25mins.

    Not necessarily. You're not allowing for traffic on the Dublin road from the city at peak times (yes, there should be QBCs, but as of right now, there aren't. Until they are physically there, we must couple best-case scenario times with worst-case scenario ones) You also discard those who need a table for those 20 minutes to get some work done, or have a bike, or have heaps of shopping....
    dowlingm wrote: »
    At least one third of the catchment is going to be in the direct path to Galway so you can forget about that...

    No you can't. It's reduced, but it won't be a 100% slice of catchment area. like I said, shoppers, workers needing tables, bikers, even those who prefer trains.
    dowlingm wrote: »
    ...plus some of the rest will be impinged by the proximity of Ardrahan.

    Fair enough. But that just means they're taking the train from Ardrahan instead, which is the same difference.
    dowlingm wrote: »
    I take my cue on these issues from this guy who says in a year of cutbacks the ethical approach is to defer new services not cut existing ones to jam in the new one.

    Interesting, but completely irrelevant. By the same logic, SIPTU (wasn't it?) were right to call for the scrapping of construction work on Terminal 2 so that the DAA could keep existing services running. My company has me on a 3 day week because DAA isn't paying as much, but do you think I'd like to see the terminal mothballed? Not in a month of Sundays.
    dowlingm wrote: »
    This is the Transport 21/Irish Rail business case for Ennis-Athenry from February 06 (PDF). That the line speed would be about 50mph with a maximum of 60mph is covered on page 14....

    ...It explicitly says that the 22Ks will not be used but rather will provide surplus 27xx sets when deployed to Kerry.

    It's been 4 years. I think they'll have a little more leeway than what's on a 4 year old report.
    dowlingm wrote: »
    The Project Appraisal on page 17 is a joke because most of the high scoring items are ones that IE has no responsibility for....

    So, you use the report as evidence when it supports your theory, but rubbish it elsewhere? Also, might I add that it is 4 years old.
    dowlingm wrote: »
    .....the 2010 timetable makes no effort whatever to link in to Dublin services and the disjointed nature of Ennis-Limerick-Limerick Junction service is continued.

    There. That, is a good point. That is something that needs to be looked at, petitioned by residents of the catchment areas involved. I'd like to know what you guys think of the idea of Dublin-Athlone-Limerick services?
    dowlingm wrote: »
    The danger here of course is that while Brian Cowen had no direct personal interest in the WRC - some might say that indeed if the resources allocated to Ennis-Athenry had been rescheduled to fall behind Galway-Oranmore-Athenry and not in front, Clara and Tullamore would have *better* service to the West and fewer delays of trains heading eastward to Dublin - the Leader of the Opposition can feather his own nest by promising rails to Mayo.

    It is time for Ireland to get out of the industrial and social policy business of rail expansions because it is nothing but a front for political interests over cost-benefit analysis and instead commit to Irish Rail a sum of money over 10 years which they must spend and account for the benefit thereafter. If that means it is spent on improving services being taken rather than instituting new service while running a sardine service with inadequate track paths, so be it.

    Now all that's just political soapboxing.

    Politics is terrible isn't it? What? A politician looking to his constituents? Oh, a real travesty of justice.

    dowlingm, do I have it right that you're currently in Canada? you're not listening to our radio, using our rail services, experiencing our weather, reading our local news, talking to people who know people who might be using the service soon? And yet you do nothing to qualify why you state what is, in essence, your opinion as a given fact? I'm not saying you've no right to, but basically the last two paragraphs read like an election pamphlet.

    On paper, of course it's bloody expensive. On paper, the LUAS costs 96m per mile. But neither of these are on paper. They are reality. Making lives easier for people. The Luas does this for enough people to justify itself. The Ennis-Athenry extension isn't open, the trains haven't been scheduled yet (I'm on about changes that may be made between now and opening, I'm aware that schedules are printed) so we do not know that it will or not. We can guess, we can plead, we can look at reports by various people and censuses and everyone else but, just like any bsiness setting up, we won't know until the doors open.


  • #45
    dowlingm
    Registered Users Posts: 5,309 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    @Eason Large Quail - through the wonder of the internet and the telephone I can, in fact, do many of the things you mention in your last paragraph, plus the occasional return journey (most recently eight weeks ago). I am not sure, however, what the fact that Canadian snow rather than Irish rain falls on my head this particular week makes my opinion on the reopening of stations in tiny catchments invalid.

    As for bikers, they can in fact bring their bike on board a bus (PDF). There are exceptions but that's true of Irish Rail too.

    You ask about Dublin-Athlone-Limerick. I don't see that happening tbh, although GAA specials from Ennis should work if Clare get their hurling act together, but someone should lean on Dick Fearn to see if the 2700 being shuttled from Ballina-Limerick every Saturday for maintenance can't run in service as Ballina-Athlone, Athlone-Athenry, Athenry-Limerick if this isn't already planned. Ticket checking etc. might be an issue but surely it wouldn't be insurmountable - in my view frequency is a great motivator for passenger choice of rail and I have a hobbyhorse about trains running out of service when they could be carrying passengers.

    The bus timetable may be optimistic, yes, but under the first services start running we can't be sure what the rail timings will be - as seen when IE had to rewrite the Nenagh-Limerick commuter schedule.

    As for the politicians, perhaps I struck a nerve Eason Large Quail. Yes, it is so very terrible. To advance a local/personal interest over the national interest is terrible, it's got us where we are today and we have to snap out of it. West on Track and their tame politicians have a Field of Dreams approach to regional development - lay down a rail track (a 50mph line speed rail track) and prosperity will follow, one one-off house at a time. In the rest of the country there has to be development levies and urban planning but not in the West - just build us that choochoo and money will fall from the sky.

    Also - Terminal 2 is a nightmare that should never have happened. Rebuild a terminal with a forward-planned modular design (like, ahem, Toronto Pearson Terminal 1) and you could look to an ultimate capacity in the 35m pax/year range - which Dublin will have trouble hitting anyway while Portmarnock lawyers are under 10L/28R's proposed flightpaths. Alternatively Baldonnel could be civilianised with a terminal connected by a peoplemover to the Kildare line, and Ryanair kicked out there into the tin shed they like to provide to their passengers. Instead we're getting the PD Palace. Whoopee.


  • #46
    westtip
    Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=63204723&postcount=2862

    Whats happening here - this was the last post on the real thing - does this make this post post 2862+46 which means we have now unofficially gone beyond 3000 posts?

    Anyone got any pics of the latest boating opportunities on the WRC, or is there any sign of the branch line emerging from the flood.


  • #47
    Hungerford
    Registered Users Posts: 912 ✭✭✭Hungerford


    Details of current boating opportunities on Limerick-Ennis stretch detailed below:

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/1216/1224260761169.html
    THE ENNIS to Limerick railway line is likely to remain closed until February after a large section of track became submerged in flood water.
    The line has been closed since December 1st. However, while flood water has receded in most parts of Co Clare, levels at Ballycar near Newmarket-on-Fergus continue to rise and are not expected to abate for up to eight weeks.

    :eek:


  • #48
    westtip
    Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    Can we then call this lunatic project, "Dead in the water" or perhaps reading that IT article and the galloping enthusiasm there seems (not) to be from either the OPW or IE to fix the flooding issues we can confidently say it is in been "drowned at birth" A convenient death for IE, saying to OPW its not a our fault govnor and OPW saying we ain't got no money and its not our priority. It seems the whole farce is in fact being allowe to (sorry folks another watery pun) to "sink without trace"

    All I can say is what a waste of bloody public money. And we can argue the toss about critical mass and timetables versus buses and the wesht needed it - lets face it - from the reports over the last few weeks it seems the whole thing is an engineering joke with its own in built water safety feature.


    Perhaps that last post on the legendary thread was the best way to sign off

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=63204723&postcount=2862


  • #49
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    it sums it up really...if a road gets flooded the bus goes another way....if a bus breaks down, they send another bus....if a the Train breaks down or the line gets flooded , what do they do? They send a BUS!!!!


  • #50
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    Now Westtip stop making waves although I have to agree with you it is crazy all the money that has gone down the drain on the WRC project. Somebody in CIE is going to be in deep water over it - hopefully John 'photo-opportunity' Lynch who is already out of his depth before a Dail committee. He must be hoping that there will be some other distraction soon and that the flooding will soon be water under the bridge. Let's just hope that the useless politicians don't throw the baby out with the bath water as we urgently need investment in the railways just not this one. :D


  • #51
    ClovenHoof
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,121 ✭✭✭ClovenHoof


    Why is there such a hatred of the people on the West of Ireland on this board? It is depressing to come on here and see the mocking of our rail line. After decades of neglect by the Dublin Government we finally get a tiny piece of the railway pie. Firstly, Irish Rail banjax it with not putting in proper drainage (wink-wink) and then outsiders make fun of it.

    Look at the money wasted on that Dublin Airport Metro. Billions for nothing. Have you any idea how many miles track in the West and North West that kind of money could have reopened. The entire line to Derry from Cork. Just think of the jobs that would create outside The Pale. We need this.

    Get a life!


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  • #52
    ClovenHoof
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,121 ✭✭✭ClovenHoof


    corktina wrote: »
    it sums it up really...if a road gets flooded the bus goes another way....if a bus breaks down, they send another bus....if a the Train breaks down or the line gets flooded , what do they do? They send a BUS!!!!

    Bus does not create jobs.


  • #53
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    If you think this thread is bad you should check out the old WRC one and, hey, lighten up a little and remember the rising tide lifts all boats..:D


  • #54
    Tech3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,010 ✭✭✭Tech3


    ClovenHoof wrote: »
    Why is there such a hatred of the people on the West of Ireland on this board? It is depressing to come on here and see the mocking of our rail line. After decades of neglect by the Dublin Government we finally get a tiny piece of the railway pie. Firstly, Irish Rail banjax it with not putting in proper drainage (wink-wink) and then outsiders make fun of it.

    I'm all for a Limerick to Galway line but it has to be direct, dependable and fast which the WRC is not going to offer. Instead were reopening a 3rd world rail line.


  • #55
    dowlingm
    Registered Users Posts: 5,309 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    ClovenHoof wrote: »
    Why is there such a hatred of the people on the West of Ireland on this board?
    Fella, you have no idea what hatred is. Nobody wants you to get an uneconomic choochoo - that's all. You are in the one in need of a trip to the Life shop credit card in hand.

    Also "bus doesn't create jobs" is not an argument, just so you know. Take some time, do some reading, come back and try again. I seriously mean that. There's a lot of heat in the 3000 posts on the WRC hereabouts but there is light here and there too. The more people in the West who understand how they have been misled and misrepresented by the likes of West on Track, Fr Michael McGreil, Frank Dawson and Senator Fidelma Healy Eames the better.

    (As for the latter, the moderators on her site are fierce slow - maybe if I made a comment saying "zomg teh wrc is awesome and I want to have indababies" it might go a bit faster?)


  • #56
    dowlingm
    Registered Users Posts: 5,309 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    Here - some public transport equipment to operate between Limerick and Athenry


  • #57
    Eason Large Quail
    Posts: 0 ✭ Eason Large Quail


    westtip wrote: »
    Can we then call this lunatic project, "Dead in the water" or perhaps...

    I call troll post.


  • #58
    Eason Large Quail
    Posts: 0 ✭ Eason Large Quail


    Judgement Day wrote: »
    Now Westtip stop making waves although I have to agree with you...

    I call troll support...


  • #59
    Eason Large Quail
    Posts: 0 ✭ Eason Large Quail


    dowlingm wrote: »
    Fella, you have no idea what hatred is. Nobody wants you to get an uneconomic choochoo......

    I call vested interest.

    (Poor normal westerner, didn't know what hit him...)


  • #60
    Eason Large Quail
    Posts: 0 ✭ Eason Large Quail


    Clovenhoof, you have to remember that most of these anti-WRC posters are actually refugees from being banned from other rail-specific forums, some are or were highly active with rail lobby groups. They had 6 years of no one saying boo to them here.


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  • #61
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    ClovenHoof wrote: »
    Why is there such a hatred of the people on the West of Ireland on this board? It is depressing to come on here and see the mocking of our rail line. After decades of neglect by the Dublin Government we finally get a tiny piece of the railway pie. Firstly, Irish Rail banjax it with not putting in proper drainage (wink-wink) and then outsiders make fun of it.

    Look at the money wasted on that Dublin Airport Metro. Billions for nothing. Have you any idea how many miles track in the West and North West that kind of money could have reopened. The entire line to Derry from Cork. Just think of the jobs that would create outside The Pale. We need this.

    Get a life!

    can you illuminate us on the Billions wasted on the Dublin Airport Metro...theres a whole new thread there surely!


    Oh and just so as you know, the entire line from Derry to Cork doesnt need relaying, its already there ....


This discussion has been closed.
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