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"N6 Galway City Transport Project"

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    #152
    antoobrien
    Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    I'm not aware of anyone attempting to "dismiss" the traffic congestion and car dependence problem as being "a morning school-run issue".

    You don't deal with the fact that the evening rush 4 days out of five a week has absolutely nothing to do with schools and yet schools are often primary point on the issue, so look in a mirror you'll know where to start finding the posters doing this.


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    #153
    galwaycyclist
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭galwaycyclist


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    What effective action has been taken in the last 30-50 years to deal with school travel? Can you identify one initiative, or even just one school, where an effective Travel Plan has been devised and implemented, in the past couple of decades?

    This is part of what makes the whole bypass frenzy so curious and difficult to believe. There are numerous soft measures that could have been taken to promote alternatives in Galway city but have been studiously ignored. The provision of cycle parking in the city is so poor as to invite the conclusion that cycling is being actively suppressed as a form of transport. It is a situation that could be fixed for "peanuts" in terms of the city roads budget - but it never, ever, happens. A few token spaces here and there but nothing credible.

    Given the sustained avoidance of obvious traffic alleviation measures in the city - over many decades - it is hard not speculate that somebody is actively trying to keep the traffic congestion at worse levels than it has to be.

    Why would anyone do that?


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    #154
    antoobrien
    Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    galwaycyclist wrote: »
    Given the sustained avoidance of obvious traffic alleviation measures in the city - over many decades - it is hard not speculate that somebody is actively trying to keep the traffic congestion at worse levels than it has to be.

    Why would anyone do that?

    Nobody in their right minds, which makes the suggestion rather funny really.


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    #155
    galwaycyclist
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭galwaycyclist


    antoobrien wrote: »
    Nobody in their right minds

    Exactly so we either believe that the city executive are collectively insane or that there is something else going on.


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    #156
    what_traffic
    Registered Users Posts: 4,868 ✭✭✭what_traffic


    galwaycyclist wrote: »
    Exactly so we either believe that the city executive are collectively insane or that there is something else going on.

    It's always about the £ $ € !


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    #157
    dubhthach
    Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    what_traffic wrote: »
    It's always about the £ $ € !

    Sure it's lot easier to gut the capital budget then it's to get the likes of Union fat-cats to agree to restructuring of the current budget.

    The major issue for years has been a complete lack of spending on proper infrastructure, be that road/public transport or education. Given that 10 year bonds are now below 1% they should raise a 2-4billion bond for use in investment in capital projects.


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    #158
    galwaycyclist
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭galwaycyclist


    what_traffic wrote: »
    It's always about the £ $ € !

    dubhthach wrote: »
    Sure it's lot easier to gut the capital budget then it's to get the likes of Union fat-cats to agree to restructuring of the current budget.

    The major issue for years has been a complete lack of spending on proper infrastructure, be that road/public transport or education. Given that 10 year bonds are now below 1% they should raise a 2-4billion bond for use in investment in capital projects.

    Its probably best not to speculate on why city officials would do something like actively make a traffic problem worse. That risks descending into all manner of accusations for which there is no direct evidence.

    I think it is enough to acknowledge and document the city executive's curious and sustained pursuit of practices that seem consistent with an intent to either make the traffic situation worse, or at least to do nothing fundamental that might reduce traffic.


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    #159
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    antoobrien wrote: »
    You don't deal with the fact that the evening rush 4 days out of five a week has absolutely nothing to do with schools and yet schools are often primary point on the issue, so look in a mirror you'll know where to start finding the posters doing this.

    You can lead a horse to the water, but you can't make him think.
    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    The key point about school traffic is that it illustrates what can be achieved when one -- just one -- source of traffic is reduced (secondary schools off) or eliminated (all schools off).

    One major step in managing Galway's traffic, regardless of a bypass, is therefore to deal with school travel.

    The same principles could be applied to the two Third Level institutions. Workplace travel could also be tackled in like manner, with particular emphasis on large employers in the city centre and in key locations such as Parkmore and Ballybrit.

    The lessons to be learned from school traffic are obvious to all but those unwilling to learn. There are none so blind as those who will not see.


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    #160
    antoobrien
    Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    You can lead a horse to the water, but you can't make him think.



    The lessons to be learned from school traffic are obvious to all but those unwilling to learn. There are none so blind as those who will not see.

    There are lessons to be learned, and once you stop trying to use a worldview that discards any facts that undermine it, your posts will stop falling into the above category.


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    #161
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    Another magnificent pro "bypass" anti-EU 'we can do what we like with our bogs' rant in yesterday's Advertiser.
    County Councillor Tomas O Curraoin, Republican Sinn Fein wrote:
    This is what hit on me, and many others will be hit with the same thing. It is Cromwellian the way people are being treated. It is outrageous, I won't stand for people’s houses being knocked, let's get real, potentially knocking 130 houses because of a couple of old ferns and bushes. We are lying down to these bureaucrats, if there is any Fenian blood in us, we must stand up to these cronies or else we should not be here at all.

    http://www.advertiser.ie/galway/article/75958/angry-scenes-as-councillors-plan-monday-meeting-on-road-proposal


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    #162
    what_traffic
    Registered Users Posts: 4,868 ✭✭✭what_traffic


    galwaycyclist wrote: »
    I think it is enough to acknowledge and document the city executive's curious and sustained pursuit of practices that seem consistent with an intent to either make the traffic situation worse, or at least to do nothing fundamental that might reduce traffic.

    True. I do know the likes of NUIG are trying to address this. They know the game is Up. They cannot provide any more car parking and new Developments have eaten up existing parking so only solution is to get more people using more efficient means of getting to and from the University Campus.


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    #163
    dubhthach
    Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    Another magnificent pro "bypass" anti-EU 'we can do what we like with our bogs' rant in yesterday's Advertiser.

    What has a post from another thread posted in 2011 got to do with Republican Sinn Féin, a fringe party at the best?


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    #164
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    It's pretty much the same mindset. The Galway City "bypass" thread in the Infrastructure > Roads forum is replete with such attitudes from the very start (2008).

    The project was stopped by a "weed", people challenging the dominant car culture are cranks whose opinions are essentially invalid, citizens actively campaigning for solutions that are not car-focused and road-based are "sociopaths" and/or tree-hugging Luddite hippies reeking of patchouli. All the usual reactionary guff.


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    #165
    Crumbs868
    Closed Accounts Posts: 438 ✭✭Crumbs868


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    It's pretty much the same mindset. The Galway City "bypass" thread in the Infrastructure > Roads forum is replete with such attitudes from the very start (2008).

    The project was stopped by a "weed", people challenging the dominant car culture are cranks whose opinions are essentially invalid, citizens actively campaigning for solutions that are not car-focused and road-based are "sociopaths" and/or tree-hugging Luddite hippies reeking of patchouli. All the usual reactionary guff.

    What bothers most reasonable hard working people is that there is no viable alternative to the current predicament (people trying to cross the city for 55 million different reasons mainly as a result of poor planning decisions in relation to houses) other than a city bypass which is a standard feature of most cities including the Eco friendly Danish that they love to harp on about.

    The most cost effective solution is no longer viable because of this 'weed' you mention. This lobby group are happy for motorists to sit in their cars and cost the city / country millions (economic cost as well as astronomical cost of researching an alternative not to mention actually having to build it) just to be stubborn and penalise the motorist.

    A subway where nobody needs a car is the North star but let's be realistic, we are where we are, we need a city bypass


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    #166
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Crumbs868 wrote: »
    What bothers most reasonable hard working people is that there is no viable alternative to the current predicament (people trying to cross the city for 55 million different reasons mainly as a result of poor planning decisions in relation to houses) other than a city bypass which is a standard feature of most cities...

    It's like the property crash -- all the house owners / car uses are victims rather than partly to blame. Everybody suffering because of the system allowed poor planning -- Irish people are great at disconnecting themselves for everything until after it all goes sideways.

    My understanding is the the objectors to the bypass outlined their concerns many years ago but the council were bullish -- there's distinct parallel between that and the earrings which were given about the housing crash.

    Crumbs868 wrote: »
    ...including the Eco friendly Danish that they love to harp on about.

    Dutch cities have good bypasses but inside the bypasses there's more often than not very few through routes for private cars.

    The bypass planning also seems to be quite different than ours -- when a bypass goes in the old route will be partly or fully given over to sustainable transport and local access. There's no such plan likely for Galway and I'd be shocked if Galway went even half close to Dutch or Danish transport planning. Galway can hardly manage a safe crossing between a third level campus and its inbound bus stop!
    Crumbs868 wrote: »
    The most cost effective solution is no longer viable because of this 'weed' you mention. This lobby group are happy for motorists to sit in their cars and cost the city / country millions (economic cost as well as astronomical cost of researching an alternative not to mention actually having to build it) just to be stubborn and penalise the motorist.

    You could just as well blame those undertaking countless trips by car which often could be done faster by walking or cycling or getting the bus or in very limited amount of cases getting the train.

    But it's like the Onion headline saying that Americans want other Americans to take oubluc transport so roads are less congested.
    Crumbs868 wrote: »
    A subway where nobody needs a car is the North star but let's be realistic, we are where we are, we need a city bypass

    A subway? A subway for a city of far less than 100k people? What are you talking about?


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    #167
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    Crumbs868 wrote: »
    What bothers most reasonable hard working people is that there is no viable alternative to the current predicament (people trying to cross the city for 55 million different reasons mainly as a result of poor planning decisions in relation to houses) other than a city bypass which is a standard feature of most cities including the Eco friendly Danish that they love to harp on about.

    I hope you are not suggesting that people who walk, cycle and take the bus to work or education are not reasonable and hard-working also? :)

    I don't believe we can conclude that there is no viable alternative to a bypass, for the simple reason that no serious attempt has been made to propose a viable alternative. If the bypass is needed to fix problems caused by poor planning, then this prompts me to ask: how can we be sure that there won't be another 30-50 years of poor planning after €500-750 million of public money is spent trying to fix the previous 30-50 years of poor planning?

    Mind you, in that regard the manager of the "N6 Galway City Transport Project" has already said that a "bypass" won't fix the problem!

    There may be bypasses of other cities in the EU, including Denmark and the Netherlands, but it is also the case that a much higher proportion of their commuting population travels by means other than the private car. Are car commuters in Galway really saying that if a bypass is built they will suddenly choose to switch to bus, bike or Shank's Pony? Because if that is what is being claimed, I don't buy it for a second.


    Crumbs868 wrote: »
    The most cost effective solution is no longer viable because of this 'weed' you mention. This lobby group are happy for motorists to sit in their cars and cost the city / country millions (economic cost as well as astronomical cost of researching an alternative not to mention actually having to build it) just to be stubborn and penalise the motorist.

    I have seen no studies comparing the cost effectiveness of different alternatives. Have you?

    Self-evidently the people who are most happy to sit in their cars are motorists. Otherwise they would not be doing it day after day, in sunshine or in showers. 47% of them are travelling 4 km or less to work or education, and 58% of trips across the river are within the city. What penalty are these motorists suffering, and who is penalising them?


    Crumbs868 wrote: »
    A subway where nobody needs a car is the North star but let's be realistic, we are where we are, we need a city bypass

    Can you define "need" in this context?

    Incidentally, if the objective is to find a way to facilitate "people trying to cross the city for 55 million different reasons" then the solution arrived at should do exactly that, ie move people. Unfortunately in Ireland the dominant culture for decades now has been to conflate moving cars with moving people, which is why we are where we are.


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    #168
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,272 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    monument wrote: »
    A subway? A subway for a city of far less than 100k people? What are you talking about?

    It's more practical a solution as a €500-€750mil bypass for a city of less than 100k, at least it would take cars off the road instead of encouraging more on with a shiny new bypass.


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    #169
    what_traffic
    Registered Users Posts: 4,868 ✭✭✭what_traffic


    Iris Aniar le Donncha Mac Con Iomaire.

    http://www.rte.ie/radio/utils/radioplayer/rteradioweb.html#!rii=17%3A10380301%3A1747%3A03%2D03%2D2015%3A&type=radio

    A few County and City Cllr's contributed


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    #170
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    More confirmation from the City Council that they are now, and always have been, seeking not a bypass but a cross-town route for car commuters:
    Galway City Council wrote:
    Most of the traffic that’s coming to the city is coming to stay in the city, it’s not coming to go past it. There’s a limited amount going to Connemara and out along by the coast road or wherever else, but if you think of anybody that’s living or working around Barna or Knocknacarra, they’re trying to get to the east of the city, and they’re the type of people you’re trying to get to use the road.

    http://www.galwayindependent.com/20150408/news/architects-rally-to-support-college-S53088.html

    So that's 20 years and €14 million wasted on planning a "bypass" that they never actually wanted?

    And now that the "bypass" pretence has been dropped, wee see that the City Council is seeking to get commuters to use a new road to traverse the city from west to east and back. They are not trying to get them to use public transport, for example.

    Because that would be a different project, wouldn't it?


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    #171
    veryangryman
    Registered Users Posts: 5,531 ✭✭✭veryangryman


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    More confirmation from the City Council that they are now, and always have been, seeking not a bypass but a cross-town route for car commuters:



    So that's 20 years and €14 million wasted on planning a "bypass" that they never actually wanted?

    And now that the "bypass" pretence has been dropped, wee see that the City Council is seeking to get commuters to use a new road to traverse the city from west to east and back. They are not trying to get them to use public transport, for example.

    Because that would be a different project, wouldn't it?

    And? Whats your problem with people getting from one suburb to another in a godly amount of time? Vast majority doing so to go to work and pay a decent amount of the cost of this road you dread so much.

    I wish they built 2 bypasses, one being a bypass of people who are delaying the growth of an otherwise great city on this island.


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    #172
    galwaycyclist
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭galwaycyclist


    veryangryman wrote: »
    And? Whats your problem with people getting from one suburb to another in a godly amount of time? Vast majority doing so to go to work and pay a decent amount of the cost of this road you dread so much.

    I wish they built 2 bypasses, one being a bypass of people who are delaying the growth of an otherwise great city on this island.

    You dropped an important fact from your reply. This project is not about moving "people" only those people who happen to be in private cars.

    And as an approach to "city" traffic it cannot work.


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    #173
    veryangryman
    Registered Users Posts: 5,531 ✭✭✭veryangryman


    galwaycyclist wrote: »
    You dropped an important fact from your reply. This project is not about moving "people" only those people who happen to be in private cars.

    And as an approach to "city" traffic it cannot work.

    Buses are allowed to use bypasses you know. Witness any GoBus/Citylink doing the airport runs via M6.

    Indeed, Dell in Limerick used to use the Motorway to ferry passengers across from the other side of city. Only a smallish example, but there are more benefits to the bypasses than your point makes. The West of city to Ballybrit commute for example is popular enough to warrant buses using the bypass in many instances.


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    #174
    spacetweek
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,955 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    veryangryman wrote: »
    Buses are allowed to use bypasses you know. Witness any GoBus/Citylink doing the airport runs via M6.

    Indeed, Dell in Limerick used to use the Motorway to ferry passengers across from the other side of city. Only a smallish example, but there are more benefits to the bypasses than your point makes. The West of city to Ballybrit commute for example is popular enough to warrant buses using the bypass in many instances.
    That only works in rare instances. I'm assuming the bus brought people non-stop from the ferry to Dell so no intermediate bus stops were needed. Usually you wouldn't have bus stops on a bypass as pedestrians are normally restricted or not allowed at all. The proposed bypass of Galway will be built to motorway specifications so putting bus stops on it won't be an option except for non-stop services.

    The idea is that the bypass is mostly only for long distance traffic and the inner bypass would be converted to a bus route. That makes sense because it would always be easier for pedestrians to reach the inner bypass than the outer one.

    As another poster stated, the intention here is not to move cars, it's to move people. The cars are optional and best omitted.


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    #175
    veryangryman
    Registered Users Posts: 5,531 ✭✭✭veryangryman


    spacetweek wrote: »
    That only works in rare instances. I'm assuming the bus brought people non-stop from the ferry to Dell so no intermediate bus stops were needed. Usually you wouldn't have bus stops on a bypass as pedestrians are normally restricted or not allowed at all. The proposed bypass of Galway will be built to motorway specifications so putting bus stops on it won't be an option except for non-stop services.

    The idea is that the bypass is mostly only for long distance traffic and the inner bypass would be converted to a bus route. That makes sense because it would always be easier for pedestrians to reach the inner bypass than the outer one.

    As another poster stated, the intention here is not to move cars, it's to move people. The cars are optional and best omitted.


    Sorry, the word "ferry" was a verb, not a noun - I should have been more clear. The passengers were "ferried" across the city. Non stop Caherdavin->Dell through tunnel, next exit, thus avoiding city centre.

    A stop somewhere around Rahoon/Salthill that takes you onto bypass and Ballybrit would be just the job for a huge number of workers. Even one that gets off at N84 junction to pick up others, then back on would save tonnes of time for alot of people.


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    #176
    what_traffic
    Registered Users Posts: 4,868 ✭✭✭what_traffic


    veryangryman wrote: »
    Sorry, the word "ferry" was a verb, not a noun - I should have been more clear. The passengers were "ferried" across the city. Non stop Caherdavin->Dell through tunnel, next exit, thus avoiding city centre.

    A stop somewhere around Rahoon/Salthill that takes you onto bypass and Ballybrit would be just the job for a huge number of workers. Even one that gets off at N84 junction to pick up others, then back on would save tonnes of time for alot of people.

    You don't even need a bypass to implement this idea. Not one single City Bus Service directly serves East-West or West-East commuters who don't need/want to go via Eyre Square. Could start with only running between 06h30 to 09h30 and same in the evenings 16h00 to 19h00


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    #177
    SeanW
    Registered Users Posts: 8,740 ✭✭✭SeanW


    spacetweek wrote: »
    As another poster stated, the intention here is not to move cars, it's to move people.
    It never is. Even the people who planned Los Angeles considered it to be a question of moving people in cars.
    The cars are optional and best omitted.
    Which is great, until you want to travel long distance, at odd hours, or with a lot of stuff. Then the car becomes a lot less optional and most certainly not "best omitted".


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    #178
    galwaycyclist
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭galwaycyclist


    SeanW wrote: »
    It never is. Even the people who planned Los Angeles considered it to be a question of moving people in cars.

    Which is great, until you want to travel long distance, at odd hours, or with a lot of stuff. Then the car becomes a lot less optional and most certainly not "best omitted".

    So Los Angeles is now the transport model for Galway (population 80,000ish) - thanks I needed a good giggle to get me started for the day.

    You are exactly right , the car is the option of first choice for long distance travel or carrying lots of stuff. It should not be the option of first choice for commuter and school traffic in a small historical university town. The idea is ridiculous.


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    #179
    SeanW
    Registered Users Posts: 8,740 ✭✭✭SeanW


    galwaycyclist wrote: »
    So Los Angeles is now the transport model for Galway (population 80,000ish) - thanks I needed a good giggle to get me started for the day.
    I never said that. Rather, I was challenging the idea that planners that people such as yourself disagree with "plan for happy cars" or "design around cars" or suchlike.

    If my car ends up in Connemara, it's because I wanted to go there, not because the car gained sentience and decided to go there on its own for some reason. But yourself and IWH seem to advocate the view that even the worst planners plan for cars as an end unto itself - this is simply not the case.
    You are exactly right , the car is the option of first choice for long distance travel or carrying lots of stuff. It should not be the option of first choice for commuter and school traffic in a small historical university town. The idea is ridiculous.
    The problem is that there is no route from the South and East to places like Clifden, from Tuam to Connemara etc. that does not involve going through Galway city streets, some of them residential, all of them traffic nightmares. And (at least regarding the city streets part) that will not change until a proper bypass is built. Full stop.

    Regarding the concern that a bypass would simply become a commuterway, that's legitimate especially in light of some comments from members of the local authorities, but I've already outlined a solution - limit the bypass to 4 junctions, the Connemara Road, and the 3 N/M roads (M6, N84, N59) and mandate the NRA to take sole responsibility for the project. As I said before, the NRA by policy has a short but distinguished history of building and more importantly protecting a long distance National network.


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    #180
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    SeanW wrote: »
    The problem is that there is no route from the South and East to places like Clifden, from Tuam to Connemara etc. that does not involve going through Galway city streets, some of them residential, all of them traffic nightmares. And (at least regarding the city streets part) that will not change until a proper bypass is built. Full stop.

    Google Maps and sat navs will easily route you away from all streets from the east of Galway to Clifden.

    There might be residential roads on the route in the city, but there's fewer houses faceing the road in the city than there are on stretches of the road in rural and village areas along the N59 west of the city.

    galwaycyclist wrote: »
    So Los Angeles is now the transport model for Galway (population 80,000ish) - thanks I needed a good giggle to get me started for the day.

    You are exactly right , the car is the option of first choice for long distance travel or carrying lots of stuff. It should not be the option of first choice for commuter and school traffic in a small historical university town. The idea is ridiculous.

    I'd contend that LA is trying harder, at least in some ways.

    They have metro lines over and underground, light rail, commuter rail, extension plans for underground metro and at-grade light rail, a BRT line, an extensive local bus network, bicycle racks on all buses and BRT buses, intergraded ticketing long before Ireland, and they are have someone greenways for years, and are now looking at protected cycle lanes.


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    #181
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    According to local media in Galway, the delegation to the European Commission has been told that the old bypass has not been "completely ruled out".
    The European Commission has told a delegation from Galway that the old outer city bypass route is not completely off the table.

    There have been repeated calls to reconsider the route, despite part of it being turned down by the E.U previously due to the Habitats Directive.

    A delegation, made up of the Galway City and County mayors, local TDs, councillors, community representatives, council officials and engineers along with MEPS held an informal meeting with Commission officials in Brussels today.

    Speaking to NewsBreak from Brussels, MEP Marian Harkin said the European Commission says the old bypass route has not been completely ruled out.

    http://connachttribune.ie/old-outer-city-bypass-route-not-ruled-out-at-eu-meeting

    If the report is accurate, and the Commission's assessment is valid, this will take some people by surprise.

    It will be very interesting to see how this impacts on the N6 Galway City Transport Project's deliberations.


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