Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

If you were born into a different religion...

  • 21-03-2012 1:37pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 2,109 ✭✭✭


    A question to those who consider themselves devout in their current religion.

    If you were born into another religion, do you believe you would have "found" and converted to your current religion, or would you be devout in the religion of your birth?

    It's a question that has always intrigued me.


«13

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 10,245 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    It depends, doesn't it? If I was born into Richard Dawkins' family then possibly not. If I was born into a family in Saudi Arabia then possibly not. There is absolutely no way to know.

    "If a tree falls in a forest" and all that.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    I don't know that I would consider myself "devout" but I do believe myself totally commited to my Faith on the One True Church founded by Jesus Christ.

    If I had been born into any other religion my constant questioning of "is this right" would ultimately have led me to converting to Catholicism.

    In probabilistic terms the next most likely religion to have been born into would be Islam and while its Abrahamaic and believes in God ultimately it is not a religion of peace and that is a problem for humankind. If it presents a problem then it cannot be right and true.

    If I had been born into Judaism my questioning nature would have led me to the study of Jesus Christ and any study of Jesus leads ultimately to joining His Church.

    With Buddhism I imagine I would have had problems with its attitude to marriage and with its lack of a God, who is more and more evident the deeper one delves into science.

    I could go one but essentially any exploration of why the Church teaches what it does leads to one place and one place only.

    The only question remaining is whether you accept it or reject it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,334 ✭✭✭RichieC


    Festus wrote: »
    I don't know that I would consider myself "devout" but I do believe myself totally commited to my Faith on the One True Church founded by Jesus Christ.

    If I had been born into any other religion my constant questioning of "is this right" would ultimately have led me to converting to Catholicism.

    In probabilistic terms the next most likely religion to have been born into would be Islam and while its Abrahamaic and believes in God ultimately it is not a religion of peace and that is a problem for humankind. If it presents a problem then it cannot be right and true.

    If I had been born into Judaism my questioning nature would have led me to the study of Jesus Christ and any study of Jesus leads ultimately to joining His Church.

    With Buddhism I imagine I would have had problems with its attitude to marriage and with its lack of a God, who is more and more evident the deeper one delves into science.

    I could go one but essentially any exploration of why the Church teaches what it does leads to one place and one place only.

    The only question remaining is whether you accept it or reject it.

    I know you probably think all this but chances are no, you wouldn't have converted to Catholicism. If you were born in Ireland chances are you were baptised. That is why Catholicism seems the one true way to you. not because it is the one true way.

    I was Baptised and found the one true way. My own.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    I wasn't baptised. I was raised as an atheist.

    And, yes, I found the true way eventually.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    RichieC wrote: »
    I know you probably think all this but chances are no, you wouldn't have converted to Catholicism. If you were born in Ireland chances are you were baptised. That is why Catholicism seems the one true way to you. not because it is the one true way.

    I was Baptised and found the one true way. My own.

    Ah, you presume to tell me what I probably think? Some would take that to be arrogance.

    No, you probably don't know I think all this because as I have laid out my thoughts you know that that is what I think. No probability about it.

    So, despite what you think I know what I think and I stand by what I have said and disagree with you.

    Catholicism does not seem to be true, it is true, because it comes directly from Christ.


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,334 ✭✭✭RichieC


    Festus wrote: »
    Catholicism does not seem to be true, it is true, because it comes directly from Christ.

    So sayeth the doctrine..


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    RichieC wrote: »
    So sayeth the doctrine..

    ... and history

    http://www.beginningcatholic.com/catholic-church-origin.html


  • Registered Users Posts: 676 ✭✭✭HamletOrHecuba


    Festus wrote: »

    In probabilistic terms the next most likely religion to have been born into would be Islam and while its Abrahamaic and believes in God ultimately it is not a religion of peace and that is a problem for humankind. If it presents a problem then it cannot be right and true.

    The problem here is that you could take the Crusades and the blessing of the Spanish and Portugese land grabs later on as proof that Catholicism is not a Religion of peace either. Islam also believes itself to be a Religion of peace and presents itself as such- would a cradle Muslim looking at the history of the supposedly Christian west really come to the conclusion that Catholicism was much more of a religion of peace? We both should know that the answer to that is no.

    What would make a Muslim turn towards Christianity would surely be the lack of a proper understanding of original sin in Islam, coming to an intuitive grasping of the need for the Atonement of the Crosss and how law without Grace cannot bring us closer to God, surely?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,109 ✭✭✭Ben D Bus


    PDN wrote: »
    I wasn't baptised. I was raised as an atheist.

    And, yes, I found the true way eventually.


    Were you raised as an athiest in a Christian country? Might there have been a cultural influence to your decision?

    My OP is driven by the fact that in most parts of the world there is a dominant religion. And it would appear that there are relatively very few conversions in any direction. And at least some of those conversions are for cultural or pragmatic reasons (e.g. marriage)

    I don't know if cross posting is frowned upon in this part of boards but I'd like to ask the same question in the Islam board.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,334 ✭✭✭RichieC


    Festus wrote: »

    History according to Catholics. If there was a Christ he would tear that Roman monstrosity to the ground. Golden walls and opulence weren't Christ's style.


  • Advertisement
  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    RichieC wrote: »
    History according to Catholics. If there was a Christ he would tear that Roman monstrosity to the ground. Golden walls and opulence weren't Christ's style.


    Well... there is, and He hasn't


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,334 ✭✭✭RichieC


    Festus wrote: »
    Well... there is, and He hasn't

    He was never alive to see it.

    Do you want to demonstrate how Christ's message jives with a massive Palace and billions in cash?


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,639 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    As I mentioned in another thread on the property tax, property is not wealth per se. Also, running a fairly balanced budget means that social utilities which are run by the Church have some mode of continuous operation in comparision to Ireland's own which are subject to the Trokia's mercy.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    RichieC wrote: »
    He was never alive to see it.

    He is
    RichieC wrote: »
    Do you want to demonstrate how Christ's message jives with a massive Palace and billions in cash?

    That's your fantasy so I think it would be impossible. Do feel free to have a go yourself.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,255 ✭✭✭tommy2bad


    Manach wrote: »
    As I mentioned in another thread on the property tax, property is not wealth per se. Also, running a fairly balanced budget means that social utilities which are run by the Church have some mode of continuous operation in comparision to Ireland's own which are subject to the Trokia's mercy.

    I think your confusing heritage with property but thats a tangent so.....

    I think I might be whatever I was born into, and be as bad a Muslim or Jew or Buddhist as I am a Christian. It would be something monotheist or atheist to fit me anyway.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    This is the genetic fallacy. It presumes that people are Christians because their parents are Christians. However, there are millions of people who have become Christians without Christian parents in the world. Therefore the logic is flawed.

    I think availability is key. However, in the 21st century, Christianity is available pretty much everywhere, even in persecuted countries. I'd have to concede that there would be lessened availability, but nonetheless there would still be a probability of this being the case.

    Simply put, I don't believe in Christianity because of my parents, I believe because I'm convinced of the Gospel and what Jesus did.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,310 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    a "do you believe" question is hardly a fallacy

    in any case, i was baptised in one religion and am now another
    wouldn't really say i'm "devout", though...


  • Registered Users Posts: 445 ✭✭muppeteer


    I wouldn't call it a fallacy to say that the majority of people are a particular religion because they were raised in that religion. Saying this does not preclude people from converting from one religion to another, so there is no logical flaw.

    Here's some info on the levels of conversion to and from various groupings.
    Being brought up in a particular religion seems to make you much more likely to stay within that religion or to only convert into one of its branches or offshoots. For the UK data it seems converting to a non Christian religion is much rarer. The same rarity is true for conversions to Christianity, despite no shortage of access.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    The question is based on it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 676 ✭✭✭HamletOrHecuba


    Faith in Christ is a Gift that no sinful human deserves.


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,205 ✭✭✭Benny_Cake


    No real way of knowing,but I suspect I would have remained in whichever religion I was born into. Although plenty of people change to a different religion, the majority do stay in the one which their family or surrounding culture holds. That said, while I don't reject anything that is good in any faith, I'm quite glad that I had the chance to learn about the Christian faith and Christ, it is an extraordinarily rich tradition and I've been lucky also to come into contact with people who live their faith in a very authentic way. That is not to say that non-Christians don't have much to offer spiritually, Judaism, the Sufi tradition of Islam and some of the Buddhist traditions seem to have a lot to offer...but that Jesus guy, he's someone I've never quite been able to get away from.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    muppeteer: That depends on region. In the US for example about 50% change in their lifetime between differing denominations and no religion.

    The article puts it as follows:
    The genetic fallacy is a fallacy of irrelevance where a conclusion is suggested based solely on something or someone's origin rather than its current meaning or context. This overlooks any difference to be found in the present situation, typically transferring the positive or negative esteem from the earlier context.

    Irrespective of the source where people began to consider their faith, ultimately people are Christians because they find that it is convincing to them. People naturally as they grow up decide what makes reasonable sense to them and what doesn't, if any belief in general not just in respect to Christianity doesn't make good sense, it will be naturally discarded. In my case it was varied sources from my teenage position of agnosticism.

    It's especially nonsense to say that Christianity is determined by parents, because whole swathes of people have become Christians in the world who weren't from Christian backgrounds.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,334 ✭✭✭RichieC


    Festus wrote: »
    He is



    That's your fantasy so I think it would be impossible. Do feel free to have a go yourself.

    No hope you could make sense when you answer me by any chance?


    There is no way the Christ of the bible would agree with Vast palaces with opulent interiors and billions in assets and bank accounts while children sit in a desert dying by the thousands. Now, if you can counter that with perhaps something he said concerning said palaces I will concede the point.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,334 ✭✭✭RichieC


    philologos wrote: »
    muppeteer: That depends on region. In the US for example about 50% change in their lifetime between differing denominations and no religion.

    The article puts it as follows:


    Irrespective of the source where people began to consider their faith, ultimately people are Christians because they find that it is convincing to them. People naturally as they grow up decide what makes reasonable sense to them and what doesn't, if any belief in general not just in respect to Christianity doesn't make good sense, it will be naturally discarded. In my case it was varied sources from my teenage position of agnosticism.

    It's especially nonsense to say that Christianity is determined by parents, because whole swathes of people have become Christians in the world who weren't from Christian backgrounds.

    America is different. They have basically commercialised religion in the states, every church in your area will be a different denomination and they all go out of their ways to attract customers. Be it with big fancy churches, or OTT preachers/entertainers or big Choirs.

    It's a different world.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,055 ✭✭✭Cossax


    philologos wrote: »
    muppeteer: That depends on region. In the US for example about 50% change in their lifetime between differing denominations and no religion.

    Got a source for that? Seems high but I suppose if they're moving between Christian churches it could be true.
    philologos wrote: »
    The article puts it as follows:


    Irrespective of the source where people began to consider their faith, ultimately people are Christians because they find that it is convincing to them. People naturally as they grow up decide what makes reasonable sense to them and what doesn't, if any belief in general not just in respect to Christianity doesn't make good sense, it will be naturally discarded. In my case it was varied sources from my teenage position of agnosticism.

    It's especially nonsense to say that Christianity is determined by parents, because whole swathes of people have become Christians in the world who weren't from Christian backgrounds.

    Surely it's only a fallacy is you're evaluating the truth of their beliefs based on whether they got their religion from their parents?

    I think it's fair to say that the vast majority of Christians/Muslims/Jews/Hindus etc. who have ever lived were born into their religion rather than converting to it from another religion.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Pew Forum 2009 - http://www.pewforum.org/Faith-in-Flux.aspx
    Americans change religious affiliation early and often. In total, about half of American adults have changed religious affiliation at least once during their lives. Most people who change their religion leave their childhood faith before age 24, and many of those who change religion do so more than once.

    Most Christians that I have met, have had a stage in their lives when they have started to make sense of their own beliefs for themselves, irrespective of what mum and dad might think. For me, I wasn't too sure of it all. I decided to read the Bible cover to cover as a teenager and I started to see that it was true concerning the human condition and our relationship with God. It opened my eyes in fact, as there was whole swathes of content in there that I had never heard before in my life. It made me rethink what perception I had of what this life thing was about.

    The idea of children having brains that superglue ideas about God to their brains is simply demonstrably false. Even the UK chart shows that. Ultimately, people must realise what makes sense for themselves whether they like it or not, or whether their parents like it or not. That's simply life.

    Again, there are millions of people becoming Christians in the world who aren't from a Christian background. Indeed, most growth is happening in areas of the world where Christianity hasn't been heard of. Christianity in the 21st century is fundamentally different to any other century in so far as nobody can no longer say that it is mostly confined to traditionally Christian countries. There are more Christians outside of the Western world than are inside it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,109 ✭✭✭Ben D Bus


    philologos wrote: »
    Simply put, I don't believe in Christianity because of my parents, I believe because I'm convinced of the Gospel and what Jesus did.

    Would you accept that most devout Muslims, born into Islam, would say the same about the Koran and Allah and Mohammed?

    And to restate my original question, do you believe that if you were born a Muslim, in a part of the world where all major religions were there to be investigated, that you would have chosen Christianity?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Ben D Bus wrote: »
    Would you accept that most devout Muslims, born into Islam, would say the same about the Koran and Allah and Mohammed?

    I don't agree with the term "born into". I don't believe that children are born into religions. I believe that people come to make sense of the world around them largely as they grow up.

    I would agree that people would say that about other faiths. But ultimately, it doesn't particularly matter very much as to whether or not that is the case. What does matter is what is evident in the world around us, outside of thought processes. Ultimately truth reigns external to the mind.

    Sometimes atheists claim that this is a great argument for their position, but ultimately their own position falls into this predicament as well.

    I'm convinced by the evidence there is for Jesus being who He said He was. I'm quite happy to wait and see the results.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    RichieC wrote: »
    No hope you could make sense when you answer me by any chance?


    There is no way the Christ of the bible would agree with Vast palaces with opulent interiors and billions in assets and bank accounts while children sit in a desert dying by the thousands. Now, if you can counter that with perhaps something he said concerning said palaces I will concede the point.

    How much of the Churches income goes to charity every year?


  • Advertisement
  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    The problem here is that you could take the Crusades and the blessing of the Spanish and Portugese land grabs later on as proof that Catholicism is not a Religion of peace either. Islam also believes itself to be a Religion of peace and presents itself as such- would a cradle Muslim looking at the history of the supposedly Christian west really come to the conclusion that Catholicism was much more of a religion of peace? We both should know that the answer to that is no.

    What would make a Muslim turn towards Christianity would surely be the lack of a proper understanding of original sin in Islam, coming to an intuitive grasping of the need for the Atonement of the Crosss and how law without Grace cannot bring us closer to God, surely?

    You should try reading a real history book from time to time instead of getting your "history" from anti-Christian websites.

    The Crusades were a defence against Muslim agression and if they hadn't happened you would probably be a Muslim now. I say probably because if you wanted to be a Christian or an atheist they would kill you for apostasy.


Advertisement