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Water meters install problem

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  • Registered Users Posts: 445 ✭✭Froststop


    Five Lamps wrote: »
    Isn't it already there? On my street, every house has one out on the pavement. I haven't seen any of these new meters but if IW are claiming they can switch off non payers then they must have the ability integrated into the meter. Or perhaps they'll use the existing street valves if already present. They'll own those as well.

    Not restrictors, only stopcocks. There is a lot of talk of IW being able to shut restrict flow remotely, but not on a cheap meter.
    Five Lamps wrote: »
    Your rights aren't infringed at all. A clean water and sanitation supply is being delivered to your front door. The UN right doesn't imply that access has to be free of charge. It only has to be affordable.

    Not if you can't access it.
    Five Lamps wrote: »
    I presume the installation and use of it?

    €800 for a €95 meter and reader.

    Five Lamps wrote: »
    Most homes have an internal stop cock to handle the situation you describe.

    A lot of homes have only a stopcock on the street. About 20% are missing, regularly I have been unable to find a stopcock for homes.


  • Registered Users Posts: 78,218 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Froststop wrote: »
    So are we buying the meters for €800 or renting them?
    IW are specifying a certain standard of water meter, whether that is (a) Model X (b) any meter to standard Y or (c) any model that has features A, B & C.

    IW are buying it and will always own it. The customer never buys it and never owns it. The price IW are paying is between them and their suppliers / contractors.

    The customer will pay a fixed charge and a usage charge. Part of this income will go towards metering.

    This is exactly the same as any other utility.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 687 ✭✭✭Five Lamps


    Froststop wrote: »


    Not if you can't access it.

    I think it's really important that you read and understand the entire "right". Firstly, it's not directed at us in the first world though it does apply. The right is access to affordable source of water and sanitation in an equitable manner. I can't see anybody getting too far in a case here if drinking water and sanitation is delivered to their home and they choose not to pay. Best of luck with that one.
    A lot of homes have only a stopcock on the street. About 20% are missing, regularly I have been unable to find a stopcock for homes.

    They should go sort out their plumbing them.


  • Registered Users Posts: 445 ✭✭Froststop


    Five Lamps wrote: »
    I think it's really important that you read and understand the entire "right". Firstly, it's not directed at us in the first world though it does apply. The right is access to affordable source of water and sanitation in an equitable manner. I can't see anybody getting too far in a case here if drinking water and sanitation is delivered to their home and they choose not to pay. Best of luck with that one.

    A lot of talk going around, we'll have to wait and see if anything will come out of it.
    Five Lamps wrote: »
    They should go sort out their plumbing them.

    I looks like most "lost stopcocks" have been lost due to resurfacing of roads & footpaths. Can't figure out why anyone in their right mind would cover them. This also creates the problem for IW to find them to fit meters.


  • Registered Users Posts: 164 ✭✭anonanymore


    Froststop wrote: »
    A lot of talk going around, we'll have to wait and see if anything will come out of it.



    I looks like most "lost stopcocks" have been lost due to resurfacing of roads & footpaths. Can't figure out why anyone in their right mind would cover them. This also creates the problem for IW to find them to fit meters.

    My stopcock is in the road, some years ago the council tarmaced over it.
    I mentioned it to the council, but nothing was done.
    Luckily I had previously fitted a stopcock on my property.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 164 ✭✭anonanymore


    Froststop wrote: »

    From what I'm aware, they will be changing out the existing stopcock and replacing it for the new boundary box complete with meter and stopcock inside. So if they lock it, then they are preventing access to the stopcock. If they restrict the flow, and if a problem develops then the home owner can't access the stopcock to turn off water to allow for a repair in the building.

    I don't Know how they are going to lock the boundary box, I got this reply from Irish Water when inquiring about reading the meter.

    "Thank you for your query with regards to reading your Irish Water meter.

    Should you wish to read your meter, please follow the following guidelines:

    To obtain access to the meter box, there are three recesses on the surface of the meter box lid. You can open the lid using a flat headed screw driver. Ensure that you insert the screw driver correctly as there is a rubber seal which protects the meter from rainwater. You then remove the lid and the frost plug."


  • Registered Users Posts: 445 ✭✭Froststop


    I don't Know how they are going to lock the boundary box, I got this reply from Irish Water when inquiring about reading the meter.

    "Thank you for your query with regards to reading your Irish Water meter.

    Should you wish to read your meter, please follow the following guidelines:

    To obtain access to the meter box, there are three recesses on the surface of the meter box lid. You can open the lid using a flat headed screw driver. Ensure that you insert the screw driver correctly as there is a rubber seal which protects the meter from rainwater. You then remove the lid and the frost plug."

    They're using standard boundary boxes judging by the reply! I believe they can't lock them, but it's been suggested that they will restrict flow to those who don't pay and I was looking to find out how they were going to do it. I suggested the home owner could just turn the stopcock on full again afterwards & it was suggested by another poster they could lock them. From my knowledge of boundary boxes, they can't restrict flow without digging it up and the design of the boxes doesn't allow for locks to be fitted.

    There is even suggestions that IW can restrict flow remotely on other sites!

    I think IW are putting these notions forward in news reports and on media to play on people who don't know any better.


  • Registered Users Posts: 78,218 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Froststop wrote: »
    There is even suggestions that IW can restrict flow remotely on other sites!
    That would require it to be internet connected, which would be incredibly rare.
    I think IW are putting these notions forward in news reports and on media to play on people who don't know any better.
    I'm not seeing any of these reports. Are you sure it isn't just you?


  • Registered Users Posts: 445 ✭✭Froststop


    Victor wrote: »
    That would require it to be internet connected, which would be incredibly rare.

    Not that rare, I have one fitted in my house which allows me to login when I want to view my water consumption in real time to within 30 mins. There are other type available also.
    Victor wrote: »
    I'm not seeing any of these reports. Are you sure it isn't just you?

    Restricting the flow is mentioned in all these.

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/irish-water-boss-says-flow-will-be-down-to-a-trickle-if-charges-not-paid-29904311.html

    http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/irish-water-splash-out-100-3006140

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0109/496778-irish-water/

    Posters on other sites are claiming that IW can do it remotely.
    But this is impossible with the equipment IW have purchased.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 687 ✭✭✭Five Lamps


    Froststop wrote: »
    Not that rare, I have one fitted in my house which allows me to login when I want to view my water consumption in real time to within 30 mins. There are other type available also.

    IS this expensive? I wonder will many people do this to verify the meter in the ground outside?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    Victor wrote: »
    That would require it to be internet connected, which would be incredibly rare.
    I'm not seeing any of these reports. Are you sure it isn't just you?

    It'd also mean there's electrical power, and unless they're gonna buy a load of batteries...
    but then, no-one can get fired for being useless if they get a job there....


  • Registered Users Posts: 445 ✭✭Froststop


    Five Lamps wrote: »
    IS this expensive? I wonder will many people do this to verify the meter in the ground outside?

    I made it up my self with the help of a friend in the US, parts were reasonable as it was made from scratch including printed circuit boards etc. However to put it on the market it would work out a bit pricey for one off systems, it would depend on the volumes. If the volume was large enough I think it would be costing between €180-250. It has the potential to be customised for any application using any communication type, sim, WiFi, Bluetooth etc.


  • Registered Users Posts: 445 ✭✭Froststop


    It'd also mean there's electrical power, and unless they're gonna buy a load of batteries...
    but then, no-one can get fired for being useless if they get a job there....

    It would require a 12V power supply for live readings, but can also be set up on battery. However battery would only allow for 4 readings per day to get a reasonable battery life.


  • Registered Users Posts: 445 ✭✭Froststop


    Five Lamps wrote: »
    IS this expensive? I wonder will many people do this to verify the meter in the ground outside?

    Verifying the IW meter is one thing, why not set it up to calculate bills also?
    Home owners could just inter the start & end dates of their bill, inter cost per cubic meter, standing charge and proposed free allowance, click GO and the system could calculate the bill automatically once the cost of water & standing charges etc are known/announced. I have mine set up to calculate the consumption for the period selected on the graph at €2.30/cubic mt. Also it sleeps when there is not consumption, showing a flat line on the graph.


  • Registered Users Posts: 445 ✭✭Froststop


    Came across this tonight, same type system IW have purchased. Make me wonder what we will have to put up with. These systems are being taken out in the US due to problems.:rolleyes:

    http://youtu.be/16gI4pCeQxw


  • Registered Users Posts: 727 ✭✭✭Cuttlefish


    Froststop wrote: »
    Came across this tonight, same type system IW have purchased. Make me wonder what we will have to put up with. These systems are being taken out in the US due to problems.:rolleyes:

    http://youtu.be/16gI4pCeQxw

    This is quite worrying.

    You know where Irish Water is going eventually - privatisation and this is where we will end up.

    Lone customer against a large company who wont care about sky rocketing bills or inaccurate readings or the fact that the drive-by readings are 13% inaccurate


  • Registered Users Posts: 78,218 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Froststop wrote: »
    Came across this tonight, same type system IW have purchased. Make me wonder what we will have to put up with.
    Different manufacturer (Irish Water are using Itron and Diehl. No indication in the video as to why there are problems, other than (a) customer-side fault or (b) the wrong meter size being used (half inch pipe -v- one inch pipe).
    These systems are being taken out in the US due to problems.:rolleyes:
    Are they?
    Cuttlefish wrote: »
    You know where Irish Water is going eventually - privatisation and this is where we will end up.
    Off-topic, but that is unlikely to happen for a long time.
    the fact that the drive-by readings are 13% inaccurate
    You might watch the video again.


  • Registered Users Posts: 727 ✭✭✭Cuttlefish


    Victor wrote: »
    Different manufacturer (Irish Water are using Itron and Diehl. No indication in the video as to why there are problems, other than (a) customer-side fault or (b) the wrong meter size being used (half inch pipe -v- one inch pipe).

    Are they?

    Off-topic, but that is unlikely to happen for a long time.

    You might watch the video again.

    Define a long time please?


  • Registered Users Posts: 445 ✭✭Froststop


    Victor wrote: »
    Different manufacturer (Irish Water are using Itron and Diehl.

    Yes but same type, drive by system.
    Victor wrote: »
    Are they?

    DC water & Fairfax off the top of my head. I could make an enquiry to find out some more from a contact in the US in the water management business.


  • Registered Users Posts: 445 ✭✭Froststop


    Froststop wrote: »
    Came across this tonight, same type system IW have purchased. Make me wonder what we will have to put up with. These systems are being taken out in the US due to problems.:rolleyes:

    http://youtu.be/16gI4pCeQxw

    May have found the cause of incorrect readings regarding the video in the above link.
    The fault is number snagging. This is when as one dial turns it snags the dial to the left and drags that number on as well, for example you meter is reading 00199 and as it turns to 00200 the number 2 snags the zero to the left and drags it around as well so now the meter reads 01200 instead of 00200. This could be the reason problems with over charging are happening.

    Before you ask, yes Itron have the same fault. Infact it can happen on numerous types of meters, Elster, Kent, Schlumberger, Invensys Socam.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 445 ✭✭Froststop


    Has anyone got pictures of the Itron & Diehl meters IW are using, taken from the bottom/threaded side where the meter screws into the manifold.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17 projectvv


    Apparently, they cant meter for every house due to something to do with the piping and I heard they are block billing 3 houses, so that means 2 out of every 3 meters are dummies. then they will probably try to make a guess on the basis of the number of people in each household, that my explain why they are using bribery tactics to get peoples info to see how many kids etc in each house.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,218 ✭✭✭markpb


    projectvv wrote: »
    Apparently, they cant meter for every house due to something to do with the piping and I heard they are block billing 3 houses, so that means 2 out of every 3 meters are dummies. then they will probably try to make a guess on the basis of the number of people in each household, that my explain why they are using bribery tactics to get peoples info to see how many kids etc in each house.

    I heard that Sierra are installing meters using magic fairies and pixie dust and that all Irish Water staff are actually rejects from Santas toy making factory.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17 projectvv


    Unfortunately, we are not all engineers or working it the water works department, and therefore most of the threads posted on the likes of these forums are from what "we heard". Ultimately, it may be proven to be true or false, but unless the point is emanated through forums likes this, we will never know now, will we?


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,452 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    projectvv wrote: »
    Apparently, they cant meter for every house due to something to do with the piping and I heard they are block billing 3 houses, so that means 2 out of every 3 meters are dummies. then they will probably try to make a guess on the basis of the number of people in each household, that my explain why they are using bribery tactics to get peoples info to see how many kids etc in each house.

    Irish Water have confirmed though that if you do not have your own specific meter then you will received an unmetered bill which I assume is just an estimate based on family size and the like.

    Bit worrying that we still don't know how exactly an unmetered bill will be determined though.

    What is an unmetered bill?
    An unmetered bill is the type of bill sent to customers who do not have, or are not able to have, a water meter due to economic or physical circumstances. This is subject to change. Irish Water will be responsible for submitting a water charges plan to the CER for their approval. Irish Water and the CER are not in a position to advise on the level of charges or allowances until this process has concluded.

    It seems so rushed and messy.


  • Registered Users Posts: 997 ✭✭✭Colm R



    It seems so rushed and messy.

    It will be messy for those that don't have an individual spur from the road to their home. Which I would say is quite common - I'm willing to bet many of the boom time housing estates have a water network that goes as the crow flies.

    In these circumstances, there is going to need to be some engagement with the homeowners. But when you consider how difficult its been for them installing meters on public property, this is something that they will need approach at a later date.


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