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Marlborough Street Public Transport Priority Bridge

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    #62
    Rsc12
    Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭Rsc12


    trluk wrote: »
    .
    LOCATION GUIDELINES FOR NEW BRIDGE CONSTRUCTION IN HISTORIC CITIES


    Case Study - Dublin:

    jd2.jpg . hlled2.jpg




    I can't BELIEVE we're making the spacing mistake for the second time in less than 10 years @_@
    James Joyce Bridge was a stoopid place for a new bridge. Adding new bridges is fine but they have to be spaced properly.

    We do so many dumbass things these days in the name of "infrastructure" it's unreal. It's like the city was handed to a bunch of amatuers, and the country for that matter.


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    #63
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Rsc12 wrote: »
    I can't BELIEVE we're making the spacing mistake for the second time in less than 10 years @_@
    James Joyce Bridge was a stoopid place for a new bridge. Adding new bridges is fine but they have to be spaced properly.

    We do so many dumbass things these days in the name of "infrastructure" it's unreal. It's like the city was handed to a bunch of amatuers, and the country for that matter.[/Quote]

    Are you guys for real?

    Why does matter? The gods looking down on us? The views from future high rises? The view from your helicopter?

    James Joyce Bridge was put there for very good reasons (bus routes etc).


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    #64
    Rsc12
    Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭Rsc12


    Oh help!!! The aerial view simply ILLUSTRATES the bad location. As you are moving along the Quays there is a muddle of three bridges in quick succession around Queen Street. The grand, classical spacing is lost. Everybody notices this, even if unconsciously. It's illegible, it's bad city-making, it's ............... I give up.


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    #65
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    It's also a bridge to half-nowhere with very poor angles for bus traffic. I actually think that the Joyce Bridge makes traffic worse at peak periods of the day.


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    #66
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Rsc12 wrote: »
    Oh help!!! The aerial view simply ILLUSTRATES the bad location. As you are moving along the Quays there is a muddle of three bridges in quick succession around Queen Street. The grand, classical spacing is lost. Everybody notices this, even if unconsciously. It's illegible, it's bad city-making, it's ............... I give up.

    You still have yet to say why this matters, expect for the gods, or the few who have helicopters.

    Far more important is the people level of how things work for people.

    FreudianSlippers wrote: »
    It's also a bridge to half-nowhere with very poor angles for bus traffic. I actually think that the Joyce Bridge makes traffic worse at peak periods of the day.

    But the bridge does a lot for buses which uses it.


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    #67
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    monument wrote: »
    You still have yet to say why this matters, expect for the gods, or the few who have helicopters.

    Far more important is the people level of how things work for people.
    It's not aesthetically pleasing from the ground, nor is it good city design.
    But the bridge does a lot for buses which uses it.
    Does it? I would have to disagree with you on that one. Poor turning angle, poor traffic light pattern and a nightmare during peak periods.


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    #68
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    FreudianSlippers wrote: »
    It's not aesthetically pleasing from the ground, nor is it good city design.

    Good city design is making good connections even if it upsets a few aesthetics extremists.

    FreudianSlippers wrote: »
    Does it? I would have to disagree with you on that one. Poor turning angle, poor traffic light pattern and a nightmare during peak periods.

    Not sure what routes the buses using Blackhall Place use to use, but all of the alternative routes between Manor Street and O'Connell Street are worse than the bridge.


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    #69
    Rsc12
    Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭Rsc12


    monument wrote: »
    You still have yet to say why this matters, expect for the gods, or the few who have helicopters.

    Far more important is the people level of how things work for people.
    If I can't explain it perhaps the paragraph below will.

    'Dublin is one the great European cities. Its development in the 19th and
    early 19th centuries made it far more than a mere provincial capital cast in
    the shadow of London. The design and grandeur of its public buildings,
    the nobility of its domestic architecture and the beauty of its town plan –
    with its squares, riverside terraces and generous streets – makes it a city
    second to none. It stands alongside Venice, Rome, Amsterdam and Bath
    as a supreme example of the city as a corporate work of art. And this is
    still true of Dublin, even after years of heart-destroying demolitions.'
    - Dan Cruikshank, Observer Magazine, 1988


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    #70
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Rsc12 wrote: »
    monument wrote: »
    You still have yet to say why this matters, expect for the gods, or the few who have helicopters.

    Far more important is the people level of how things work for people.
    If I can't explain it perhaps the paragraph below will.

    'Dublin is one the great European cities. Its development in the 19th and
    early 19th centuries made it far more than a mere provincial capital cast in
    the shadow of London. The design and grandeur of its public buildings,
    the nobility of its domestic architecture and the beauty of its town plan –
    with its squares, riverside terraces and generous streets – makes it a city
    second to none. It stands alongside Venice, Rome, Amsterdam and Bath
    as a supreme example of the city as a corporate work of art. And this is
    still true of Dublin, even after years of heart-destroying demolitions.'
    - Dan Cruikshank, Observer Magazine, 1988

    Well, if he does not mind heart-destroying demolitions, I'm sure he won't mind the odd out of place bridge.

    Cities are for the people living in them. Great architecture is good to have too, but planning where bridges go or not based on some unexplained "classical spacing" over what works for a city and its people is downright madness.

    While there must be respect for history, but a city is not a museum and demanding "classical spacing" of bridges is far from balanced.


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    #71
    dubhthach
    Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    I wouldn't mind but most of the quays particularly the North Quays were destroyed anyways and replaced by a pastiche behind which sit box-apartments.


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    #72
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,542 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    The whole point of James Joyce bridge was to facilitate the large numbers of 37, 39, 39a and 70 buses with a direct turn off the South Quays onto Blackhall Place.

    If you had ever seen the buses making the right turn onto Rory O'More bridge (as it was two way), coupled with another right turn and then finally a left turn onto Blackhall Place, you'd realise why it was necessary. It was far too convoluted and a very difficult turn. Imagine trying it with the tri-axle VT type buses. When the articulated buses were on the 39b they had to go all the way up to Frank Sherwin bridge and come back again as the turn was too tight for them.

    So sorting all that is really "stoopid". Right!


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    #73
    Rsc12
    Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭Rsc12


    A minor bus-turn improvement is frankly pitiful justification for building a bridge in the wrong place.

    @monument, you need to improve your standard of posting. You complained about the aerial view illustrating the bad spacing of James Joyce Bridge, so I explained the situation on the ground instead and why it matters. You then said "You still have yet to say why [spacing] matters ..." Since you weren't getting it I posted the Observer Magazine quote in the hope of conveying the idea of Dublin as a great relic of urban civilisation and again you react dismissively. Please.


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    #74
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,542 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    It was hardly minor given the large volume of bus traffic using it.

    The alternative was for buses to have to go up to Heuston Station and back every outbound journey.


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    #75
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Rsc12 wrote: »
    A minor bus-turn improvement is frankly pitiful justification for building a bridge in the wrong place.

    @monument, you need to improve your standard of posting. You complained about the aerial view illustrating the bad spacing of James Joyce Bridge, so I explained the situation on the ground instead and why it matters. You then said "You still have yet to say why [spacing] matters ..." Since you weren't getting it I posted the Observer Magazine quote in the hope of conveying the idea of Dublin as a great relic of urban civilisation and again you react dismissively. Please.

    Can you please try to reply to my points rather than dismissing them as being dismissive? In that regard, I would contend that you are the one who needs to improve your standard of posting. You are wholly unconvincing and you're dismissively of my honest opinion -- back with given reasons -- that your points aren't convincing.

    My main point is that: Cities are for people living in them, the view the gods and rich people who own or can afford to use helicopters is irrelevant. I would add to that the few people who notice on the ground and the even fewer who care (ie a few aesthetics extremists). The importance of aesthetics has to be balanced -- things like making places more liveable and making connections are more important than aesthetics. Aesthetics at the level you're talking about (where few people notice or care), can't override making connections, making a city more liveable, and more sustainable.

    The James Joyce Bridge is actually a major bus service improvement -- from the ability to use articulated buses without a notable diversion, to a more direct and more reliable route. Knocking off a regular near 1.2km diversion with three extra sets of traffic lights on a urban bus journey is far from minor.

    The idea of a classical spacing seems like a modern day invention, by you. The spacing of older bridges seem more about making connections.

    The quote from the Observer Magazine is at best vague and little can be take from it about bridge spacing -- it is the kind of thing both you or I could claim supports our arguments.


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    #76
    trluk
    Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭trluk


    Consistent spacing of bridges is not some esoteric idea. It's really simple. The bridges of Dublin were always beautifully spaced - until this modern-day nonsense of bunging new bridges inbetween existing ones.

    *Wince*, I still can't believe Dublin City Council are about to commit this civic crime again at Marlborough Street X_X


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    #77
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    trluk wrote: »
    Consistent spacing of bridges is not some esoteric idea. It's really simple. The bridges of Dublin were always beautifully spaced - until this modern-day nonsense of bunging new bridges inbetween existing ones.

    *Wince*, I still can't believe Dublin City Council are about to commit this civic crime again at Marlborough Street X_X

    Yeah, actually, it is a esoteric idea. It's also a bit eccentric. You might not be able to see it but it is. The vast majority of people don't care that the Loopline, Talbot, Sean O'Casey, Millennium, Joyce etc bridges don't fit in with the "classical" spacing.

    Are the Butt and Loopline bridges beautifully spaced? Never any spacing "problems" before Dublin City Council came along!

    As for modern-day nonsense of building new bridges inbetween existing ones... Err.. You'll find that's been happening for more than 100 years! Not very modren.


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    #78
    trluk
    Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭trluk


    The turkey bridges are James Joyce Bridge and this new one that's about to be built. I don't know what you're getting at with most of the others cited.

    The Loopline bridge is an acknowledged historical blunder of the city. Running across in front of the Custom House, it could not be more insensitive. However it's a product of the Orwellian powers of the railway companies at the time. During the boom period, there was a plan to remove and replace the Loopline with a transparent bridge which would largely restore the Venetian vista of riverside terraces leading into the Custom House, as seen in the picture below. It was a designated "Millennium Project". But we couldn't even do that with all the money sloshing around. Where is that sense of hope and ambition for the city gone? Instead we're just about to further f**k up the 18th century river vista from O'Connell Bridge with this unnecessary, badly-planned, transport engineer bridge at Marlborough Street. Wow. Words fail me.


    cutomhsepreloopline2hh2-2.jpg


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    #79
    D.L.R.
    Registered Users Posts: 1,283 ✭✭✭D.L.R.


    trluk wrote: »
    *Wince*, I still can't believe Dublin City Council are about to commit this civic crime again at Marlborough Street X_X

    You can't believe it? You've heard of Wood Quay right?


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    #80
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    trluk wrote: »
    The turkey bridges are James Joyce Bridge and this new one that's about to be built. I don't know what you're getting at with most of the others cited.

    Starting at Heuston going east the classical spacing is: 516m > 240m > 308m > 320m > 276m > 303m > 260m > 249m > (and the apparent error of the Loopline at) 12m. For the record starting at Islandbridge, it's 273m > 815m > 516m etc.

    Now Beckett seems to confirm roughly the old spacing. It's 440m from the last bridge (Sean O'Casey) and the 900m or so left between Beckett and the Eastlink and allows for another bridge to be put in half way and still keep to that that roule of having around 450m between bridges.

    The placment of the Talbot Memorial Bridge broke this rule. It has only 176m between it and Loopline. The Sean O'Casey Bridge placment also broke this rule at only around 230m from Talbot.

    Same goes for the Millennium Bridge -- at only 126m from the Ha'penny and only 168m from Grattan.

    The Frank Sherwin Bridge also breaks the spacing at only about 50m from the now tram and ped only bridge, the Sean Heuston.

    So, the Loopline Bridge, Frank Sherwin Bridge, Talbot Memorial Bridge, Sean O'Casey Bridge, and the Millennium Bridge all broke the apprent rule. It's not just Joyce or the Marlborough Street Bridge.

    trluk wrote: »
    The Loopline bridge is an acknowledged historical blunder of the city. Running across in front of the Custom House, it could not be more insensitive. However it's a product of the Orwellian powers of the railway companies at the time. During the boom period, there was a plan to remove and replace the Loopline with a transparent bridge which would largely restore the Venetian vista of riverside terraces leading into the Custom House, as seen in the picture below. It was a designated "Millennium Project". But we couldn't even do that with all the money sloshing around. Where is that sense of hope and ambition for the city gone?

    I would agree that the Loopline could be improved, but I would say that if you go about where the photo was taken today and look, you'll see trees, those silly flag polls the council has dotted along the river bank, and buses and HGVs are far more insensitive to the view than the Loopline ever was. Have a look on Google Street View:

    Street View from around where the photo you posted was taken showing trees, polls, HGVs etc in the way of the view.

    Street View from around the centre of the bridge (currently showing buses in the way of the view).

    Street View only showing the Loopline Bridge vs trees.

    trluk wrote: »
    Instead we're just about to further f**k up the 18th century river vista from O'Connell Bridge with this unnecessary, badly-planned, transport engineer bridge at Marlborough Street. Wow. Words fail me.

    Please do explain how an street-level bridge will any way compare to the elevated Loopline.

    There isn't an 18th century river vista any more. A picture today from the same spot, even with the exact same lens and framing, would include the IFSC, the Liberty Hall, the Ulster Bank Building, the Convention Centre. You'll also have no sailing ships, but you would have lots of more people, and cars, buses and trucks. There may be good and bad bits, but Dublin is a city for today and tomorrow, not just a museum.


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    #81
    trluk
    Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭trluk


    Look man I think we'd better leave it because you're just not in tune with the overall point. You're trying to argue a load of details there which are not relevant to the overall point.

    Not dissing you. I just don't think you should be having this conversation because you're so far out of tune with the sentiments.

    Respect.


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    #82
    Wild Bill
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭Wild Bill


    trluk wrote: »
    T During the boom period, there was a plan to remove and replace the Loopline with a transparent bridge which would largely restore the Venetian vista of riverside terraces leading into the Custom House, as seen in the picture below.


    Wow. Words fail me.


    cutomhsepreloopline2hh2-2.jpg

    They fail me when I see this described as a "Venetian vista" :rolleyes:

    Sir, I know Venice and this is no Venetian vista!


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    #83
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    trluk wrote: »
    Look man I think we'd better leave it because you're just not in tune with the overall point. You're trying to argue a load of details there which are not relevant to the overall point.

    Not dissing you. I just don't think you should be having this conversation because you're so far out of tune with the sentiments.

    Respect.

    Even people with very subjective views can define them at least somewhat, you don't seem to be able to thst, so while I'm not dissing you, your view on this seems completely impossable to definable and thus seems airy fairy at best.


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    #84
    [Jackass]
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,193 ✭✭✭[Jackass]


    It just pains me that no one identified that the problem is largely to do with the size of buses being run on narrow routes.

    Smaller buses, much, much more frequent service, and proper congenstion control. Our (Dublin) transport system is an ongoing joke, with no possible solution we can find from what the Brits left us with, and any attempt at improving this infrastructure within a confide city enviornment, almost without fail, has been an absolute disastor. Compared to early 1900's Dublin, the level of public transport in the city has been one of almost complete collapse, and our incompetence has really ruined one of Europes finest cities of the day.


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    #85
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,542 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    [Jackass] wrote: »
    It just pains me that no one identified that the problem is largely to do with the size of buses being run on narrow routes.

    Smaller buses, much, much more frequent service, and proper congenstion control. Our (Dublin) transport system is an ongoing joke, with no possible solution we can find from what the Brits left us with, and any attempt at improving this infrastructure within a confide city enviornment, almost without fail, has been an absolute disastor. Compared to early 1900's Dublin, the level of public transport in the city has been one of almost complete collapse, and our incompetence has really ruined one of Europes finest cities of the day.

    Look, the right turn onto Rory O'More Bridge off the south quays (as was) is not suitable for double deck buses of any variety. There were numerous accidents there and all of this led DCC to the decision that a new bridge was needed.

    The peak frequency on the combined routes using that bridge is a bus every 2.5 minutes and that is using tri-axle buses on many of them. You want more buses using a smaller bridge that is patently not suitable for that purpose?


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    #86
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    don't see any point in worrying our little heads about bridge spacing from an architectural point of view. As if Dubliners will be walking around with their cloth measuring tapes and then righting subsequent letters of complaint. The only problem I see with James Joyce Bridge is that it narrows in the middle and it was not designed originally to accommodate a cycle lane. Of course it is better to place road bridges where there can be straight though traffic(like Marlborough-Hawkins st). Still, Joyce Bridge cut 5 minutes off my journey home, 10 at rush hour, I can't complain. I don't care how close they are together, If the liffey was completely tunnelised, I wouldn't care.


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    #87
    Joko
    Closed Accounts Posts: 126 ✭✭Joko


    Buses carry the bulk of public transport passengers in Dublin and the bridge will allow Dublin Bus to further revise their network in the City Centre.

    http://www.dublincity.ie/RoadsandTraffic/MajorTransportProjects/Documents/Marlborough_Street_Bridge_Synopsis_-_Aug_2011[1].pdf


    What bus routes are planned to use this bridge? The plans only have south bound bus lanes.


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    #88
    darkman2
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8,633 ✭✭✭darkman2


    These pictures were posted on Skyscrapercity forum



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    #89
    Wild Bill
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭Wild Bill


    darkman2 wrote: »
    These pictures were posted on Skyscrapercity forum


    Hmmmm... this photo stream would fall foul of the photo restrictions being proposed for the weather threads! ;)


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    #90
    Joko
    Closed Accounts Posts: 126 ✭✭Joko


    Wild Bill wrote: »
    Hmmmm... this photo stream would fall foul of the photo restrictions being proposed for the weather threads! ;)

    Spamming a thread with photos is annoying for users on mobiles.

    Actually annoying for everyone.


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    #91
    Wild Bill
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭Wild Bill


    Joko wrote: »
    Spamming a thread with photos is annoying for users on mobiles.

    Actually annoying for everyone.

    Depends on the photos and the context. I'm not annoyed, ergo, it isn't annoying for everyone :cool:

    I would also oppose reducing the visual experience of PC readers just to facilitate mobile users.


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