Eircom eFibre VDSL/FTTC rollout – plans to reach 1.6m premises by mid 2016

Solair · 01-03-2012 1:32am

Contrarian wrote: »

Looking at that, the UPC entry level package is 50c more expensive but you get off peak calls all week and international calls if you are so inclined. This is on a contended network however of 17:1 and from my experience telco grade VoIP would also be a superior offering.

Having used UPC's telephone service, it is actually a superior offering to an eircom landline in many ways.

1) Sound quality is 100% perfect (no long analogue line). It's totally digital from the phone port onwards.
2) The network is setup with QOS prioritization for voice, so it does not cause any issue with calls. Also, there's pretty huge bandwidth the local coax networks, and lots of fibre backhaul points so overall, contention shouldn't really be much of an issue. There's loads of capacity.
3) It's not like your typical VoIP service, calls complete on last digit dialed etc. Dial plans are all set up perfectly.
4) It has a much better range of services than eircom:
Anonymous call rejection (gives a message to anyone calling from a blocked number). Caller ID on call waiting (which, ironically, works on eircom-branded DECT phones!), various conditional divert options like a mobile phone etc.

From what I know of their network, it's actually delivered using some cable-company grade of VoIP & pretty top notch Nortel (division now owned by Ericsson) DMS voice switches.
So, as telephony services go, UPC's is top notch.

Rossi IRL · 01-03-2012 1:40pm

oh well, i live over 10km from 1 of the exchanges getting upgraded so it looks like ill have to do with 2mb for another 10 years,,

i have 1 question,,

how much would it cost to get a new exchange built

Sponge Bob · 01-03-2012 2:33pm

Assuming fibre is at the location ...around €30-40k

bealtine · 01-03-2012 2:42pm

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Assuming fibre is at the location ...around €30-40k

That would be for a fibre fed cabinet no?

MrO · 01-03-2012 2:52pm

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Assuming fibre is at the location ...around €30-40k

To build a new exchange?

I'm not so sure - seems quite low to me.

mobil 222 · 01-03-2012 6:36pm

Rossi IRL wrote: »

oh well, i live over 10km from 1 of the exchanges getting upgraded so it looks like ill have to do with 2mb for another 10 years,,

i have 1 question,,

how much would it cost to get a new exchange built

For people living about 7km from an exchange and are on less than 2megs is there not a case that when FTTC is introduced that they might get greater than 2.
What i mean is that- say you are fed on a cable direct from the exchange at the moment ie your residence is about 7 km away with NGB on your line.
In the new new setup Eircom decide to locate a cabinet about 4 km away
from the exchange which leaves your house 3 km away.

Question . Can you apply for an upgrade using the new tecknology.

iMuse · 01-03-2012 7:51pm

iMuse wrote: »

This box is half a mile from my house and Ive seen eircom working at it before. Is it a Cabinet?

Eircom and KN networks laying cable to this cabinet today

lucernarian · 01-03-2012 8:40pm

mobil 222 wrote: »

For people living about 7km from an exchange and are on less than 2megs is there not a case that when FTTC is introduced that they might get greater than 2.
What i mean is that- say you are fed on a cable direct from the exchange at the moment ie your residence is about 7 km away with NGB on your line.
In the new new setup Eircom decide to locate a cabinet about 4 km away
from the exchange which leaves your house 3 km away.

Question . Can you apply for an upgrade using the new tecknology.

I see no reason based on the eircom wholesale presentations etc. to think that eircom will move cabinets any closer to where they are needed. Even if ducting and fibre already exists on the route! Like the Letterkenny release mentioned "all 38 cabinets" being enabled. Implicitly saying that no new cabinets will be erected beyond the existing number. It will come down to hoping that the nearest cabinet is less than 2km from your address:(

mobil 222 · 01-03-2012 9:02pm

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

mobil 222 wrote: »

For people living about 7km from an exchange and are on less than 2megs is there not a case that when FTTC is introduced that they might get greater than 2.
What i mean is that- say you are fed on a cable direct from the exchange at the moment ie your residence is about 7 km away with NGB on your line.
In the new new setup Eircom decide to locate a cabinet about 4 km away
from the exchange which leaves your house 3 km away.

Question . Can you apply for an upgrade using the new tecknology.

I see no reason based on the eircom wholesale presentations etc. to think that eircom will move cabinets any closer to where they are needed. Even if ducting and fibre already exists on the route! Like the Letterkenny release mentioned "all 38 cabinets" being enabled. Implicitly saying that no new cabinets will be erected beyond the existing number. It will come down to hoping that the nearest cabinet is less than 2km from your address:(

But cabinets are fed by a main cable which can range from 200 up to 1200 pair and it's possible that that cable might have feeds to 3 cabinets ie could be 300 going to each cab with the last 300 going direct therefore the need for an extra cabinet

lucernarian · 01-03-2012 9:11pm

In general, wouldn't the nearest areas be directly served with a cable with only more outlying areas served by a cabinet? So if there were 300 pairs left over, they'd probably serve the areas closest and least in need of a VDSL cabinet anyway.

stevenf17 · 01-03-2012 9:12pm

mobil 222 wrote: »

For people living about 7km from an exchange and are on less than 2megs is there not a case that when FTTC is introduced that they might get greater than 2.
What i mean is that- say you are fed on a cable direct from the exchange at the moment ie your residence is about 7 km away with NGB on your line.
In the new new setup Eircom decide to locate a cabinet about 4 km away
from the exchange which leaves your house 3 km away.

Question . Can you apply for an upgrade using the new tecknology.

For people look for big speed increases from FTTC its not really going to benefit people that live over a km away from a cabinet.
You'll see in this graph that after about a km the VDSL (which is used by FTTC) is actually slower than ADSL2+ which eircom are currently using for there NGB.

If they've got an area where theres lots of people that live far away from a cabinet they prob won't bother upgrade it to VDSL to get the 50Mb speeds.
They might still run fibre to the cabinets though, and leave the ADSL/ADSL2+ to improve the speeds of whoever is connected to that cabinet. That will be years down the line though if they ever get around to it!

lucernarian · 01-03-2012 9:32pm

Some of those numbers are simply wrong. At longer distances, there should be no difference between ADSL2 (G.992.3 Annex A) and ADSL2+ (G.992.5 Annex A) in speeds obtained.

They use the same modulation but ADSL2+ had twice the frequency range so at shorter distances, it could use that alongside the existing ADSL2/ADSL1 range. Lines over 4km couldn't use tones over 1.1MHz anyway so there cannot be a difference in speed over those lines between ADSL2 and ADSL2+.

stevenf17 · 01-03-2012 9:57pm

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

Some of those numbers are simply wrong. At longer distances, there should be no difference between ADSL2 (G.992.3 Annex A) and ADSL2+ (G.992.5 Annex A) in speeds obtained.

They use the same modulation but ADSL2+ had twice the frequency range so at shorter distances, it could use that alongside the existing ADSL2/ADSL1 range. Lines over 4km couldn't use tones over 1.1MHz anyway so there cannot be a difference in speed over lines 3 km or so long, between ADSL2 and ADSL2+

Yeah they should really fizzle out into the one line, but couldn't find a more detailed graph.
The VDSL stats are appox right though, yeah?

pic source http://boundlesscomms.com/fibre-wireless-confirmed-rural-broadband-solution-for-lancashire.html

jimmad · 02-03-2012 1:53am

I spoke to the guys laying the cable today and asked where the cabinet was going to be located, He said it was going to be put further on up the road from where the white cabinet is already located, I also asked when it would be going live he said it would be at least another month, can take that information for what it's worth.

iMuse · 02-03-2012 2:01am

jimmad wrote: »

I spoke to the guys laying the cable today and asked where the cabinet was going to be located, He said it was going to be put further on up the road from where the white cabinet is already located, I also asked when it would be going live he said it would be at least another month, can take that information for what it's worth.

Do you mean further up the road as in the tara court direction or arena 7 direction? There a cabinet at the entrance to glebe view aswell which would be about 800m up the road from that white box but that would leave people down the thorn road fairly far from the cabinet.

Sponge Bob · 02-03-2012 9:04am

MrO wrote: »

To build a new exchange?

I'm not so sure - seems quite low to me.

You forget that there will be no new exchanges, there will only be cabinets on the roadside in future and eircom won't be paying for land.

The era of the exchange as a building is over, from now it is the exchange in a box close to the home or business.

MrO · 02-03-2012 10:23am

Yes very unlikely, the space requirements are no longer there. Most of Eircoms switch and transmission rooms are empty space now - I suppose a basic double bay roadside cabinet ~ 5-7k minus a rectifier batteries, active kit, cabling etc.

Also, the civils - plinth work, ducting etc.

But if you move into the 5 or 10m cabin space you could be up at the 50/60k mark quite quick I think (without any kit).

Sponge Bob · 02-03-2012 11:20am

MrO wrote: »

But if you move into the 5 or 10m cabin space you could be up at the 50/60k mark quite quick I think (without any kit).

On a decent sized order....such as the one eircom allegedly gave Huawei late last year ...it could go as low as €20k-30k per unit for 100 line capacity. That is all in with VDSL gear, factory built and trucked onsite.

Site acquisition and fibre backhaul are extra.

Perhaps if the cabinet is large, serving 200-300 lines and must also house other operators gear for Sub Loop unbundling it could go as high as €50k per unit (and looks kinda like this specimen from another country)

cabinet%20open%20main430.jpg

MrO · 02-03-2012 11:58am

Yes maybe on a decent sized order.

That's another point about choosing FTTC over FTTH - in a lot of ways it seems the O&M and equipment costs required to have electronics deeper in the network work against the short term savings of avoiding running fibre all the way...

I would imagine that in a full FTTH (GPON) deployment that spot (serving a couple of hundred customers) would still need a bit space but not as much - only housing passive kit, splitters, and a high density ODF.

Sponge Bob · 02-03-2012 12:14pm

MrO wrote: »

I would imagine that in a full FTTH (GPON) deployment that spot (serving a couple of hundred customers) would still need a bit space but not as much - only housing passive kit, splitters, and a high density ODF.

True. GPON will do 10km from a cabinet where VDSL will do only 1km at best.

No power and aircon required in the GPON cabinet either, only where the OLT is housed.

jimmad · 02-03-2012 1:05pm

Today 01:01
iMuse
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmad
I spoke to the guys laying the cable today and asked where the cabinet was going to be located, He said it was going to be put further on up the road from where the white cabinet is already located, I also asked when it would be going live he said it would be at least another month, can take that information for what it's worth.
Do you mean further up the road as in the tara court direction or arena 7 direction? There a cabinet at the entrance to glebe view aswell which would be about 800m up the road from that white box but that would leave people down the thorn road fairly far from the cabinet.

Yes further out of the town towards tara court.

GIMickey · 02-03-2012 1:22pm

I was talking with the Eircom tech yesterday at the manorview cabinet, he give an estimated date for the complete install. The end of May for letterkkenny. Of course this is eircom talking but still they are working on it now loads. i saw them yesterday working on 5 of the cabinets, so this looks serious.

iMuse · 02-03-2012 1:37pm

GIMickey wrote: »

I was talking with the Eircom tech yesterday at the manorview cabinet, he give an estimated date for the complete install. The end of May for letterkkenny. Of course this is eircom talking but still they are working on it now loads. i saw them yesterday working on 5 of the cabinets, so this looks serious.

Yeah they seem to have a couple of teams at it, they where laying cable near the old unifi site earlier in the week. End of may sounds good, too bad I'm in a contract till september or so

lucernarian · 02-03-2012 1:38pm

Will Smart/Digiweb take part in sub loop unbundling? I think in all the areas in the first phase rollout, they have unbundled exchanges.

Solair · 02-03-2012 1:44pm

MrO wrote: »

Yes very unlikely, the space requirements are no longer there. Most of Eircoms switch and transmission rooms are empty space now - I suppose a basic double bay roadside cabinet ~ 5-7k minus a rectifier batteries, active kit, cabling etc.

Also, the civils - plinth work, ducting etc.

But if you move into the 5 or 10m cabin space you could be up at the 50/60k mark quite quick I think (without any kit).

Most of eircom's exchange buildings have been largely empty space since the 80s/90s when things went digital.

The old Ericsson Crossbar gear resembled something you'd see on a 1960s sci-fi movie, or the Bat Cave computer. Racks and racks and racks of clicking relays, flashing lights and moving components! And that was the modern, slightly computerised 1960s/70s stuff! There was older equipment again in use until the 80s in some areas that basically consisted of series of arms that moved to connect contacts as you dialed a number.

One exchange for about <10,000 lines would have easily occupied an entire floor of a large building. Bigger systems occupied several floors!

Modern stuff is tiny in comparison. Even 1980s-era digital switches are more like a few filing cabinets / racks of modules. Looks pretty much like a small data centre. Or what you'd find in a typical server / rack room room in a large company.

What still occupies a lot of space in urban exchanges is distribution frames. These are literally racks where lines are connected to the DSL and voice gear. Each line still ends up being individually connected at an exchange.

With fiber-to-kerb or fibre to home, that's all pushed out to cabinets on the street and the 'exchange' ends up just being a big router that connects it all together.

UPC already have similar infrastructure in place in most of Ireland's main urban centres and you'd hardly notice it. The only difference to what eircom are rolling out is the last bit of the connection on UPC's network is done using a coax distribution network. Eircom, are likely to continue to use phone lines going to the box on the street and ultimately swap those for fibre.

The only concern I have with fibre-to-kerb is that the street-side equipment needs to be heavily secured. I wouldn't like to see regular outages due to vandalism / cars reversing into boxes. (this happens a lot in France in my experience of Numericable, their version of UPC)

MrO · 02-03-2012 3:27pm

Solair wrote: »

One exchange for about <10,000 lines would have easily occupied an entire floor of a large building. Bigger systems occupied several floors!

Modern stuff is tiny in comparison. Even 1980s-era digital switches are more like a few filing cabinets / racks of modules. Looks pretty much like a small data centre. Or what you'd find in a typical server / rack room room in a large company.

True - when I started in Telecoms in the late 90's - even the digital switch gear seemed enormous to me but the newer ones (ericsson 501s etc.) were tiny in comparison. You could've had a game of football in some of the older exchange buildings...Adelaide Road etc.

You're right - security is always going to be an issue for cabinets - but there seems to be quite a few flavours of ruggedised cabs available now, with anti-graffitti finishes and the like.

But I guess you need to put it in the context of having a proper fibre access network - worth it I think even with a higher localised fault rate.

Recently I've even seen FTTH facade solutions - i.e. stringing from house to house. If the will is there - it can be done!

Solair · 02-03-2012 8:55pm

MrO wrote: »

Recently I've even seen FTTH facade solutions - i.e. stringing from house to house. If the will is there - it can be done!

Stringing it house to house is exactly what UPC do in a lot of older areas.

Liamario · 02-03-2012 8:58pm

Solair wrote: »

Stringing it house to house is exactly what UPC do in a lot of older areas.

Only semi successfully though. A lot of my neighbours for example have effectively prevented other residents from availing of UPC due to not allowing over hanging cables.

Salvation · 02-03-2012 11:11pm

Its amazing Dundalk being the biggest provincial town in Ireland and not even a hint of this rollout here as yet.

But letterkenny gets preference over a major town, doesnt make an ounce of sense.

Then again it is Eircon

NewHillel · 03-03-2012 12:44am

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

Will Smart/Digiweb take part in sub loop unbundling? I think in all the areas in the first phase rollout, they have unbundled exchanges.

That's a very interesting question.

Time will tell - the position of the various parties is covered in this document.

Eircom eFibre VDSL/FTTC rollout – plans to reach 1.6m premises by mid 2016

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