"Leap" into the unknown: The feedback thread

robd · 14-12-2011 2:39pm

monument wrote: »

Return journey does not come into it when there's such a time limit.

What's exact is the harm in allowing 5mins?

I'm not thinking of service disruptions but anybody who tags on at the time of a service disruption is entitled to a refund anyway.

It's not in any case the same as the problem from paying for a companion on Dublin Bus: [1] on Luas there is already a time frame of about 20-30 seconds before you can tag off after just tagging on, so tagging off is a very deliberate act; [2] the problem on Dublin Bus is purely down to a lack of driver training / poor driver training.

It's a rather convoluted way to handle this. The simple solution is for the user not to tag-on until they see the tram approaching. That's what I do and I see others doing this. Those that don't will learn the hard way.

monument · 14-12-2011 2:52pm

robd wrote: »

It's a rather convoluted way to handle this. The simple solution is for the user not to tag-on until they see the tram approaching. That's what I do and I see others doing this. Those that don't will learn the hard way.

I'm not thinking of service disruptions. I'm think more of the line of change of mine, realising you've forgotten something, trams too full for prams / wheelchairs / anybody to get on. But I also have seen loads of times where service disruptions have started after trams have stopped at a stop.

What exactly is the harm having the ability to tag off within 5mins?

Is there an echo in the room?

Random · 14-12-2011 6:57pm

i just got this card today.
the customer service staff are great by email (about 10 emails back and forth in an hour) but the system itself is a mess.
apparently theres an issue with some irish rail pickups but they dont know what ones.
i hate having to activate topups on cards. i fail to see why it cant just be applied right onto the account.

markpb · 14-12-2011 7:00pm

Random wrote: »

i hate having to activate topups on cards. i fail to see why it cant just be applied right onto the account.

There's no account, the cash is on your card. When you tag on/off at a Luas stop, Dart station or Dublin Bus, there's no online connection to the host - the credit is deducted from your card and the host is told about the transaction later (possibly many hours later when the bus goes back to the depot that night).

Pablo Sanchez · 14-12-2011 7:00pm

If your using a Leap Card, how can you prove to an inspector that you paid for your journey on a Luas?

markpb · 14-12-2011 7:05pm

Pablo Sanchez wrote: »

If your using a Leap Card, how can you prove to an inspector that you paid for your journey on a Luas?

Same as with the old smartcards - the inspectors do/will have a handheld validator that reads the card and checks if it's tagged on.

eclectichoney · 14-12-2011 10:47pm

If I send off for a free leap card as I have an irish rail smartcard will my irish rail card still work as well as my new leap card, as I still have loads of credit on it. I don't want to get a new leap card and then find out my irish rail card won't work!

Thanks

dublinman1990 · 14-12-2011 11:43pm

eclectichoney wrote: »

If I send off for a free leap card as I have an irish rail smartcard will my irish rail card still work as well as my new leap card, as I still have loads of credit on it. I don't want to get a new leap card and then find out my irish rail card won't work!

Thanks

You use all of your credit on your irish rail smartcard first, then switch and register to the leap card.

There is a solution called a transfer rebate, where one card's credit is transferred to the leap card. But, is it not in place yet until next year. The Leap card is a Pay as you go system at the moment.

rye_212 · 15-12-2011 12:01am

SandyfordGuy wrote: »

No, how do you expect your card to be topped up? it doesn't have it's own internet connection after all. You don't need to collect your top up at a LUAS machine either or a paypoint.

You can collect your top up automatically when you tag on at an Irish Rail gate or alternatively at a LUAS validator. Unfortunately the bus does not have a direct connection to the itnernet so how can it know that you have topped up?

True, but they could do a better job of making that clear. I ordered mine online at the weekend (setting up an account with the fort-knox level of security required) and received it in the post today. On the attached info sheet it has an info pod on top-up which says:
"You can topup:
* at ... agent ... 400 in Dublin
* online at LeapCard.ie
* at ticket machines"

End of info. Implies those are 3 alternatives - no use of "and collect your credit at a machine". But it makes sense that you need to move the credit from the account to the card as discussed here. But I doubt I and others here are the only ones that wouldn't have thought of that.

coylemj · 15-12-2011 1:09am

The Leap card operates the same as the Oyster card in London - you can't get credit applied over the air, it can only be applied when you press the card against a machine and that does not include Dublin Bus machines.

So it's all very well doing it online with a credit card but if you're a bus user you simply have to forget that option and pay cash to topup at a local Payzone shop, they will apply the credit there and then.

Hotblack Desiato · 15-12-2011 1:44am

loyatemu wrote: »

but their next batch of buses may have 2 doors again (as reported on another thread here) - seems they can't make up their mind on this.

Back to the future. "EXIT BY CENTRE DOOR" signs for the passengers, and a policy of never opening the centre door for the drivers!

Carawaystick · 15-12-2011 1:57am

coylemj wrote: »

you can't get credit applied over the air, it can only be applied when you press the card against a machine and that does not include Dublin Bus machines.

There was me thinking that these were contactless smartcards....

AlekSmart · 15-12-2011 6:49am

ninja900 wrote: »

Back to the future. "EXIT BY CENTRE DOOR" signs for the passengers, and a policy of never opening the centre door for the drivers!

Gosh,I must have been on holidays when that "policy" was introduced cos anytime I operate a Double Door vehicle I habitually use the centre door...even to the extent of NOT opening the front door for where nobody presents to board....:)

Even saw a 16A in O Connell St yesterday with peeps scramblin out the hole in the middle too....:eek:

Never say NEVER !!!

foggy_lad · 15-12-2011 1:58pm

Flukey wrote: »

Some interesting quotes in that article:

What exactly constitutes a successful test journey?

Seeing at the official launch was yesterday and the taste phase, at which time there was also publicity, isn't that leaving it a bit late? I know the media is tied up with Christmas ads at present, but they should really be advertising it with gusto from now, so that people will get one before the new year starts.

A bit like questioning what a successful journey is, what exactly does this mean? If people are being overcharged, and I am not even including double payments in that, that is a flaw. We all know about the problems with people not knowing how many stages they are travelling. From what we've seen in the threads here, even allowing for the fact that people are more likely to post when they have had a problem, you would expect error rates to be higher than that.

They probably don't want to publicize it at the moment because they are not really ready for a large number of customers/users and the system may become unstable if too many start using the Leap card.

Baron de Robeck wrote: »

Well so much for reliability, the Leap card "technology" has caused most (maybe all?) card readers to crash this morning. When our driver called control to inform them of his dead card reader he was told it was happening across the city!!

Lots of free journeys today..........

More successful journeys

BenShermin wrote: »

Well I was double charged today, got an annulment but the whole transaction delayed the bus by about a minute. Driver apologised and said that it was the first leap card fare he processed. Felt sorry for the driver tbh, this whole second ticket idea is nonsense, an Irish solution to a problem that never really exsisted in the first place:rolleyes:!

I don't feel a bit confident using the card as a result of today to be honest, what if the next driver I meet can't process the annulment? There's no comeback as the terms and conditions state clearly that the only way to get an annulment is at the time of the transaction.

I would presume you stand your ground until an inspector arrives to sort the mess out or just throw money away and accept the double charging.

AlekSmart wrote: »

Gosh,I must have been on holidays when that "policy" was introduced cos anytime I operate a Double Door vehicle I habitually use the centre door...even to the extent of NOT opening the front door for where nobody presents to board....:)

Even saw a 16A in O Connell St yesterday with peeps scramblin out the hole in the middle too....:eek:

Never say NEVER !!!

For a very long time all drivers were instructed Not to use the centre doors but even before this many drivers on busier routes would not use them because people were careless when folding and storing buggys and shopping in the footwells. when the doors opened everything would fall out on the path(and the driver would usually be demonised for this) or the doors would not open at all because blocked by buggys.

Also because of poor maintenance anyone standing in the footwells on a rainy day was likely to get drowned by rain and dirty floodwater splashed up under the doors, something which i have witnessed more than once on the 66/67A

markpb · 15-12-2011 3:03pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

They probably don't want to publicize it at the moment because they are not really ready for a large number of customers/users and the system may become unstable if too many start using the Leap card.

Based on what? Have you some inside track on the project and the inadequacies of it's backend infrastructure?

For a very long time all drivers were instructed Not to use the centre doors

Nope. They were told that if they pulled up badly and someone injured themselves getting out that they personally may be considered liable. There was no instruction not to use the door.

robd · 15-12-2011 4:06pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

There was me thinking that these were contactless smartcards....

They are. Otherwise they'd be dumb cards and the charging and account info would be centrally stored. Which sounds great till the Bus gets to signal blackspot and you're not allowed on the bus.

This is the exact same as other smart card systems such as the Oyster Card in London.

Flukey · 15-12-2011 4:20pm

They probably don't want to publicize it at the moment because they are not really ready for a large number of customers/users and the system may become unstable if too many start using the Leap card.

They have effectively had 2 launches so far, one before the test phase and one before it went for the general public on Monday. So it has got a lot of publicity so far in the media, being on prime time radio and TV news programmes, and also in the newspapers. That is how most of us heard about it and got in for the 500 volunteer cards, which were gone in minutes and leaving a lot of people disappointed. Anyone interested in public transport knows about the Leap Card by now.

Hotblack Desiato · 15-12-2011 11:54pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

Gosh,I must have been on holidays when that "policy" was introduced cos anytime I operate a Double Door vehicle I habitually use the centre door...even to the extent of NOT opening the front door for where nobody presents to board....:)

Even saw a 16A in O Connell St yesterday with peeps scramblin out the hole in the middle too....:eek:

Never say NEVER !!!

Well I was a daily bus user 1988-95 (for my sins, but on the plus side the daily crapness of taking the bus got me into motorbikes) and in hundreds of journeys there was literally a handful of times when I saw* the centre doors opened. Even at city centre stops where half the bus would be trying to get off at once. These would have been Ringsend garage buses, maybe the 'culture' was different elsewhere?

I use the bus occasionally now and the service is far better these days (at least on a QBC route) and in real terms, with a Travel 90, is probably cheaper.

* Edit: Back when you could still (legally) smoke on a bus I always sat downstairs...

Vincent Vega · 16-12-2011 1:31am

Does anybody know if these have a daily cut off point for how much you can be charged?
I've heard that when using the Oyster for the tube in London it stops charging you after the price of a 1 day ticket.
Anybody know if this is the same for Leap?
(don't really fancy running up a huge bill myself to test it out, and it's not on their FAQ as far as i can see:pac:)

Aard · 16-12-2011 2:10am

No daily cap right now, but will be introduced in the future.

robd · 16-12-2011 10:01am

Aard wrote: »

No daily cap right now, but will be introduced in the future.

Also, Oyster card had no daily cap when it was rolled out initially. Like LEAP that was rolled out in a later phase.

lardossan · 16-12-2011 10:50am

tried today for the first time on the Dart from Killester to Connolly. Tagged on OK then tagging out it seemed to say on the screen something like 2.90, whereas I thought the fare was supposed to be 1.70 or 1.80. So i asked the guy beside the gates to check how much I was charged and he could not do it.

I went to the tickets kiosk and she said she could not do it and to go to the Information kiosk, they in turn told me to go to the Luas stop on the groundfloor to check on the machine there. Basically no staff in Connolly can do any checks for you if you have a query.

Is this correct? No one can check what you have been just charged?

SilverLiningOK · 16-12-2011 10:59am

lardossan wrote: »

tried today for the first time on the Dart from Killester to Connolly. Tagged on OK then tagging out it seemed to say on the screen something like 2.90, whereas I thought the fare was supposed to be 1.70 or 1.80. So i asked the guy beside the gates to check how much I was charged and he could not do it.

I went to the tickets kiosk and she said she could not do it and to go to the Information kiosk, they in turn told me to go to the Luas stop on the groundfloor to check on the machine there. Basically no staff in Connolly can do any checks for you if you have a query.

Is this correct? No one can check what you have been just charged?

Looks that way. So far the easiest way I have found to check credit is a Luas ticket machine. The only other real time option is to ask a payzone agent for a balance check. Online is worthless, other than for historical purposes. The transactions, at least from buses, seem to be batch updated at end of day or overnight. Hopefully this will be remedy over time.

Just a thought, would a dart/rail ticket machine be similar to Luas one for checking balance ?

Shelli2 · 16-12-2011 11:12am

lardossan wrote: »

tried today for the first time on the Dart from Killester to Connolly. Tagged on OK then tagging out it seemed to say on the screen something like 2.90, whereas I thought the fare was supposed to be 1.70 or 1.80.

My understanding of the Dart and Luas use, is that when you tag on they charge you the maximum fare possible, and then when you tag off the apply credit if the fare was less. So when you tagged off you would have got €1.20 credited if the fare was €1.70.

robd · 16-12-2011 11:14am

SilverLiningOK wrote: »

Looks that way. So far the easiest way I have found to check credit is a Luas ticket machine. The only other real time option is to ask a payzone agent for a balance check. Online is worthless, other than for historical purposes. The transactions, at least from buses, seem to be batch updated at end of day or overnight. Hopefully this will be remedy over time.

Just a thought, would a dart/rail ticket machine be similar to Luas one for checking balance ?

You can also check you balance online (next day for Buses anyway) if you register your card at leapcard.ie. Website isn't great though, especially on touch screen such as an iphone or android.

Bus Driver can print out receipt with last 5 transactions also. Just a note the card only stores last 5 transactions so thats all you can see on Luas TVM.

Irish Rail TVM's will be added in next stage.

In terms of your specific transactions its;
Tag-on: -4.30
Tag-off: +2.90
Total: 1.40

Card works by deducting max fare at tag-on and crediting you back difference at tag-off.

Fare is correct @ 1.40 as per http://www.irishrail.ie/your_ticket/fares_enquiries.asp

In reality this is very bad on Irish Rail's part. Ticket Inspectors at gates should be equipped with handheld reader as per Luas Ticket Inspectors.

HivemindXX · 16-12-2011 11:17am

Shelli2 wrote: »

My understanding of the Dart and Luas use, is that when you tag on they charge you the maximum fare possible, and then when you tag off the apply credit if the fare was less. So when you tagged off you would have got €1.20 credited if the fare was €1.70.

That's certainly the way the old Luas smart cards work.

lardossan · 16-12-2011 11:22am

thanks for your replies, I'll check at the LUAS stop in Connolly to see what was charged but I reckon robd calculation is correct as I did see 2.90 displayed albeit very quickly.

I am used to the Oyster card and the staff in London's tube stations who can check and tell you what's what there and then, I've found the general lack of any helpfulness from the Connolly staff quite disheartening, hopefully it will improve with time.

On a positive note I had ordered it with an extra tenner preloaded and it arrived pre-authorised so I did not need to unlock it before using it, also it was delivered in 2 days.

SandyfordGuy · 16-12-2011 11:29am

Connolly are the same with the Irish Rail Smart Card, the staff just tell you to fill a form in or phone up their customer care team, it's not a unique issue to leap, although at least with the Irish Rail card you can use their ticket machines.

Oh and I believe that online top-up's are sent to gates/validators in the early hours of the morning, I'm not sure when exactly, but when I've topped up before 10pm they've always been able to collect the next morning which makes me think it happens sometime over night that a feed goes through.

Seaswimmer · 16-12-2011 12:26pm

I couldnt find the answer to this query on the FAQ' so maybe someone here can answer..

Does the leap card operate like a travel 90 ticket??

If I get 2 buses within a short time space do i only pay one fare similiar to Travel90??

SandyfordGuy · 16-12-2011 12:33pm

Not yet...

"Leap" into the unknown: The feedback thread

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