Primary school college course and atheism

recedite · 12-05-2014 7:41pm

expectationlost wrote: »

do we have any secular teacher training or not?

Looks like it will develop out of this. Students will be able to take the religious modules separately, or not at all.

Sulla Felix · 12-05-2014 10:46pm

silverharp wrote: »

they seem to be aware of it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hibernia_College

That section was edited out, recently in January from the looks of it. I never really got into the whole wiki editing thing but if anyone's active enough to stand a chance in a wiki war, well, I'll cheerlead.

oceanclub · 12-05-2014 10:54pm

Sulla Felix wrote: »

That section was edited out, recently in January from the looks of it. I never really got into the whole wiki editing thing but if anyone's active enough to stand a chance in a wiki war, well, I'll cheerlead.

Oh look, and that's the only thing they edited on Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/UserIreland1234

How conveeeeeeeeeeeeeeeenient.

P.

Hotblack Desiato · 13-05-2014 1:23am

recedite wrote: »

Looks like it will develop out of this. Students will be able to take the religious modules separately, or not at all.

And if they don't take them, they'll be unemployable in 98% of primary schools.

Brian Shanahan · 13-05-2014 5:12pm

recedite wrote: »

Looks like it will develop out of this. Students will be able to take the religious modules separately, or not at all.

It'll still mean that the doors to employment aren't open to them in 96% of all primary schools in this country.

Tim Robbins · 13-05-2014 10:40pm

Here would be a good question:

The God Channel is the most hilarious station on your TV?

1. True
2. True

expectationlost · 10-06-2015 2:29am

Hibernia College seeks bishops’ approval over graduate fears
Jobseeker posted letter from Catholic employer saying college’s religious diploma not recognised by catholic schools http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/hibernia-college-seeks-bishops-approval-over-graduate-fears-1.2243235 where was this posted somehow Hibernia isn't religious enough after what they had in there exam, we've never seen what they replaced it with.

Hibernia doesn't seem very well run

more of the story on Anseo http://www.anseo.net/hibernia-graduates-and-the-catholic-qualification/ and the Voice for Teachers facebook page https://www.facebook.com/VoiceForTeachers and twitter https://twitter.com/voiceforteacher

original post on the issue https://www.facebook.com/VoiceForTeachers/posts/985142521526421 may 27th

photo of letter https://www.facebook.com/VoiceForTeachers/posts/992431580797515 but i just can't find original source perhaps on this site http://forum.educationposts.ie/viewtopic.php?pid=994613#p994613 which I can't access, said to first circulated on behalf of Bishop of Meath

Apparently the teaching council have circulated a letter to all the catholic schools in the country telling them not to hire Hibernia students even for subbing as our qualification does not cover the religion curriculum. We do receive a religion certificate but the teaching council doesn't recognise this

actually this did not happen

A religious cert does not come under the remit of the Teaching Council. It is only a matter between a patron and individual teachers. Therefore we can be positive that no such letter has issued from the Teaching Council.

https://www.facebook.com/VoiceForTeachers/photos/a.531109630263048.124239.527218130652198/987179874656019/?type=1
must have been individual school

https://www.facebook.com/VoiceForTeachers/posts/992967117410628
https://www.facebook.com/VoiceForTeachers/posts/993348077372532
https://www.facebook.com/VoiceForTeachers/posts/993352407372099
https://www.facebook.com/VoiceForTeachers/posts/986225818084758

Update from Hibernia College in relation to religious certificate:

We are fully aware of concerns surrounding the religious certificate. Please be assured that Hibernia College is vigorously pursuing our inclusion on the list of qualification providers and has been advised that we can expect resolution in the near future. We will advise you as soon as the matter is resolved.

https://www.facebook.com/HiberniaCollege/posts/10153099805339652?hc_location=ufi
http://www.catholicschools.ie/

recedite · 10-06-2015 8:33am

It seems that RC authorities are taking revenge on Hibernia after they caved in to atheist demands for a little bit of truth and balance in the syllabus.

It ran into controversy in 2012 when Atheist Ireland claimed a number of lecture slides contained “untrue statements” about atheism, prompting the college to remove the material.

expectationlost · 10-06-2015 3:44pm

recedite wrote: »

It seems that RC authorities are taking revenge on Hibernia after they caved in to atheist demands for a little bit of truth and balance in the syllabus.

how do we know we never saw what they changed, they just said they'd change it

but note in the article its said it was never recognised and Hibernia seem to never have applied.

Hibernia president Dr Seán Rowland confirmed it had never been on the list of approved colleges, which was first published in 2011, but “we have asked to be on it now”.

would Twomey's course have qualified?

here's what you need to qualify

Recognition of Qualifications to Teach Catholic Religious Education http://www.catholicbishops.ie/2011/11/08/recognition-qualifications-teach-catholic-religious-education/ 2011 there the list from 2011 wonder if its been updated since? maybe it was after the DCU/teaching colleges consolidation

and 2014 version that includes all of the Island of Ireland Recognition of Qualifications to Teach Catholic Religious Education in Catholic Primary Schools in Island of Ireland http://www.catholicbishops.ie/2014/03/25/recognition-qualifications-teach-catholic-religious-education-catholic-primary-schools-island-ireland/

oceanclub · 10-06-2015 4:26pm

You have to love the irony. They bent over backwards to indoctrinate new teachers with bigoted offensive rubbish on behalf of the Catholic Church, and the same church has now pulled the rug from under them.

P.

Peregrinus · 11-06-2015 7:48am

Isn't the irony that the stuff which was unacceptable to the readers of this Board also turned out to be unacceptable to the Catholic church?

When A&A and the Catholic bishops are both togging out for the same team, against Hibernia College, you'd have to be a brave man to put your money on Hibernia College.

expectationlost · 11-06-2015 1:31pm

don't think has anything to do with what was in the course before, because apparently it hasn't been there for a while, just a consolidation of schools ethos/control

Hotblack Desiato · 12-06-2015 1:01am

Peregrinus wrote: »

Isn't the irony that the stuff which was unacceptable to the readers of this Board also turned out to be unacceptable to the Catholic church?

When A&A and the Catholic bishops are both togging out for the same team, against Hibernia College, you'd have to be a brave man to put your money on Hibernia College.

Entirely unevidenced assertions - never!

In the Irish Times article expectationlost linked to, the president of Hibernia said they did not seek approval (which isn't a good sign in itself professionalism-wise, given that 90% of primary schools are RC controlled so this is pretty important for the employment prospects of their graduates - but it does mean they haven't been rejected by the RCC - not yet anyway)

Peregrinus · 12-06-2015 1:48am

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Entirely unevidenced assertions - never!

In the Irish Times article expectationlost linked to, the president of Hibernia said they did not seek approval (which isn't a good sign in itself professionalism-wise, given that 90% of primary schools are RC controlled so this is pretty important for the employment prospects of their graduates - but it does mean they haven't been rejected by the RCC - not yet anyway)

My point was to query oceanclub's suggestion that Hibernia "bent over backwards to indoctrinate new teachers with bigoted offensive rubbish on behalf of the Catholic Church". It now appears that they had no contact with the church at all, and we know from earlier posts in this thread that the bigoted offensive rubbish doesn't feature in the courses run by colleges who do have the episcopal nod of approval. The conclusion must be that the bigoted offensive rubbish was entirely Hibernia's own choice, and their own responsibility. Perhaps they just shared oceanclub's assumption that the bigoted offensive rubbish would be what the church would want, but the assumption appears to be baseless and is itself, perhaps, the tiniest bit bigoted.

SpaceTime · 12-06-2015 2:31am

You'd think in this day and age one of the secular universities like UCC or NUIG might develop a primary teaching programme. It'd be far healthier for primary teachers to be educated in that kind of mainstream university environment too.

Think about it.
Age 4 to 12 catholic primary
Age 12 to 18 Catholic secondary
Age 18 to 22 Catholic teacher education centre.
Age 22 to retirement - teaching in Catholic school.

Hardly surprising that nothing in education here changes.

Peregrinus · 12-06-2015 3:21am

The former Froebel College of Education is now a department of NUI Maynooth, and is located on the main Maynooth campus.

Hibernia College, which is the one causing the problems here, is a secular institution. Plus, its primary teaching qualification is a Master's degree, for which an entry requirement is a Bachelor's degree, so all its students have already been to university, usually secular university.

expectationlost · 12-06-2015 5:41am

Vincent Twomey is an Irish Roman Catholic priest and Professor Emeritus of Moral Theology. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vincent_Twomey

he transferred to the University of Regensburg to do his doctoral studies under the supervision of the then Professor Joseph Ratzinger.

On 10 October 2011 he was conferred with the Pro Ecclesia et Pontifice medal by Cardinal Burke. The medal was given to Fr Twomey for outstanding services rendered to the Church and to the Pope

St Patrick's College, Maynooth (Irish: Coláiste Naoimh Phádraig, Maigh Nuad), is the "National Seminary for Ireland" (a Roman Catholic college), and a Pontifical University,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Patrick%27s_College,_Maynooth

Pontifical universities are "academic institutes established or approved directly by the Holy See, composed of three main ecclesiastical faculties (Theology, Philosophy and Canon Law) and at least one other faculty. These academic institutes deal specifically with the Christian revelation and related disciplines, and the Church’s mission of spreading the Gospel, as proclaimed in the Apostolic Constitution Sapientia christiana"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontifical_university

officer of the church wrties the court but that nothing to do with the catholic church?

Peregrinus · 12-06-2015 6:34am

St Patrick's College Maynooth (recently rebranded as "Maynooth College") is indeed the National Seminary for Ireland and a pontifical university. The Froebel Department of Primary and Early Education is, however, not a department of St. Patrick's College Maynooth but rather of the National University of Ireland Maynooth (recently rebranded as "Maynooth University") which is a separate, and much larger, institution. It's a secular institution, established by the Universities Act 1997 and run by a President who is appointed by the Governing Authority which (like the governing authorities of all Irish universities) is also constituted by the Universities Act 1997.

Vincent Twomey is indeed an Irish Roman Catholic priest, but it seems clear that his involvement in the Hibernia religion module didn't arise from any express or implicit requirement of the Catholic church, and the material that he seemingly provided for this course doesn't feature in any of the courses which have actually got the episcopal nod.

Hotblack Desiato · 12-06-2015 8:03am

Peregrinus wrote: »

My point was to query oceanclub's suggestion that Hibernia "bent over backwards to indoctrinate new teachers with bigoted offensive rubbish on behalf of the Catholic Church". It now appears that they had no contact with the church at all, and we know from earlier posts in this thread that the bigoted offensive rubbish doesn't feature in the courses run by colleges who do have the episcopal nod of approval. The conclusion must be that the bigoted offensive rubbish was entirely Hibernia's own choice, and their own responsibility. Perhaps they just shared oceanclub's assumption that the bigoted offensive rubbish would be what the church would want, but the assumption appears to be baseless and is itself, perhaps, the tiniest bit bigoted.

Yes it does appear that they didn't consult with the educational authorities of the RCC at all, which is pretty amateurish given the situation in Ireland in relation to control/patronage/ethos whateveryacallit in primary schools here. But someone had the brainwave to hire Vincent Twomey and then subject the material he presented to, it appears, no form of review at all.

You have to wonder what would have happened if Twomey's material had been submitted for approval - it would have been ironic if the RCC rejected a leading theologian's material as being too extreme...

Peregrinus · 12-06-2015 8:14am

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Yes it does appear that they didn't consult with the educational authorities of the RCC at all, which is pretty amateurish given the situation in Ireland in relation to control/patronage/ethos whateveryacallit in primary schools here.

Yup. The more this goes on, the more I get the sense that Hibernia College is not a brilliantly-managed outfit.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

someone had the brainwave to hire Vincent Twomey and then subject the material he presented to, it appears, no form of review at all.

What's with the "but"? If it's a badly-managed outfit then a bad decision by managers is pretty much what you'd expect.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

You have to wonder what would have happened if Twomey's material had been submitted for approval - it would have been ironic if the RCC rejected a leading theologian's material as being too extreme...

It would, though at best that's only a hypothetical irony.

But I don't know whether episcopal approval of the religious certificate involves detailed review of the course materials. We can only speculate, but it's at least possible that if Hibernia had sought approval they would have got it - not because Twomey's views on atheism would have found favour, but becaust Twomey's views on atheism wouldn't have come to light in whatever scrutiny process was involved.

The background here is that Hibernia was, until recently, the only secular institution involved in teacher training in Ireland. So my guess is that the episcopal approval process emerged in an environment in which the religion certificate was being delivered in a church-run institution, and checking the substantive content of the course wouldn't have been seen as a priority.

recedite · 12-06-2015 9:15am

This whole thing is getting a bit confusing. Is this correct;

During the time Fr. Vincent Twomey (Professor Emeritus of Moral Theology) was controlling the content of the religious module at Hibernia, they were issuing a cert to say its students were qualified to teach religion in a RC school. And RC schools had no problem accepting the cert.

And now that Fr. Twomey no longer controls the content, those same schools have been told by RCC that they are not allowed to accept the Hibernia cert.

Peregrinus · 12-06-2015 9:59am

Yes, it is confusing. But (unless I am confused) your summary is not correct, or at least not necessarily correct.

1. I don't know that Twomey ever controlled the content of the religious module. He provided content which the College used. They were free to source and use other content.

2. He may or may not have been the only person providing content, I don't know, but he seems to have provided the particular content which gave rise to upset in 2011. The upset arose out of what he had to say about atheism, but I'd imagine comments about atheism formed a small part of the total religious module, which is basically about religion, and only incidentally about atheism.

3. As to recognition before the 2011 kerfuffle, it seems from the Irish Times report that it was only in 2011 that the bishops introduced a list of recognised religious certificates.

4. The timing seems to be that a recognition requirement was introduced after complaints about the Twomey material emerged, but before Hibernia introduces revised religious material - that only happened in 2012. So it's possible that they introduced it because they didn't like the Twomey material but, on the timing, less likely that they introduced it because they didn't like the replacement material.

5. It's also quite possible that the introduction of the recognition requirement was wholly unrelated to the Twomey kerfuffle; it could have been something that arose in response to the wider trend of the delivery of teacher training passing out of the control of the religious orders. And in fact this seems to me to be the more likely explanation. If it was connected with the Hibernia business, you'd expect Hibernia to be at least aware of it, whereas it seems they never knew of it at all until recently. And it's introduction came after Froebel College announced its planned closure and reappearance as the Froebel Department at Maynooth. (This was announced in 2010.) I think this was the first time that a religious-run training college was closed and replaced with a secular-run department on a secular campus.

SpaceTime · 12-06-2015 10:07am

Peregrinus wrote: »

The former Froebel College of Education is now a department of NUI Maynooth, and is located on the main Maynooth campus.

Hibernia College, which is the one causing the problems here, is a secular institution. Plus, its primary teaching qualification is a Master's degree, for which an entry requirement is a Bachelor's degree, so all its students have already been to university, usually secular university.

Maynooth is anything but a secular university.

Peregrinus · 12-06-2015 10:33am

How so? NUI Maynooth is pretty well identical in structure, governance, mission, ownership, ethos, etc to UCC or NUIG, both of which you identify as secular universities in post #406. True, NUI Maynooth is located adjacent to the (definitely not secular) St Patrick's College and they share some facilities, but I don't think that makes NUI Maynooth a religious institution any more that it makes St. Patrick's College a secular institution.

expectationlost · 12-06-2015 3:11pm

Hibernia graduates still unsure on eligibility in Catholic schools http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/hibernia-graduates-still-unsure-on-eligibility-in-catholic-schools-1.2246534

The Taoiseach was speaking at the official opening of a €50 million campus development at St Patrick’s College, his former alma mater.
He said he believed the incorporation of St Patrick’s with DCU, Mater Dei and the Church of Ireland College of Education on the site would strengthen its respect for religious, cultural and secular traditions

whats secular about these teaching colleges if you have to infuse religion into everything to get a job?

recedite · 12-06-2015 5:28pm

Peregrinus wrote: »

The timing seems to be that a recognition requirement was introduced after complaints about the Twomey material emerged, but before Hibernia introduces revised religious material - that only happened in 2012. So it's possible that they introduced it because they didn't like the Twomey material but, on the timing, less likely that they introduced it because they didn't like the replacement material.

RCC are playing the situation well, it has to be said. By drawing up this list of approved certs, they can distance themselves retrospectively from the original material after it has been discredited.
Also they can send the message that the new course would have to be approved by them.

It may or may not be open to Hibernia now, to go cap in hand to the bishops and ask them what sort of course content would meet their approval, and then implement that.

Unfortunately that still leaves the current crop of students who studied there since 2011 with an unapproved qualification in the teaching of catholic religion.
Maybe the Hibernian religion cert could be used in the new ETB primary schools, which propose to segregate students and teach a RC module to RC kids? As the schools are to be owned and operated under "secular" VEC patronage they wouldn't need official church approval to teach church doctrine. Or would they? Maybe church doctrine is proprietary/copyright and can't be taught without approval? :pac:

What a tangled mess this country has created by caving in to the original church demands to integrate religion into the State education system.

expectationlost · 12-06-2015 5:45pm

why after starting an approved list in 2011 did the church only start enforcing it in 2014?

SpaceTime · 12-06-2015 6:14pm

Peregrinus wrote: »

How so? NUI Maynooth is pretty well identical in structure, governance, mission, ownership, ethos, etc to UCC or NUIG, both of which you identify as secular universities in post #406. True, NUI Maynooth is located adjacent to the (definitely not secular) St Patrick's College and they share some facilities, but I don't think that makes NUI Maynooth a religious institution any more that it makes St. Patrick's College a secular institution.

Not quite the same in terms of its history.

Also the Froebel College is (or at least was until very, very recently) run by the Dominican order! Yeah moving into a mainstream campus is great news but, it's hardly a new institution or one that's not deeply imbedded in the historical legacy of Catholic schooling here.

Both UCC and NUIG were specifically founded as secular universities from day one. They've no legacy as being part of any religious organisation or having any religious ethos.

Rather progressively, the two former Queen's Colleges (and Queens Belfast) were specifically created to be non-religious as there was justifiable concerned that there would be a duplication of the sectarianism that existed in higher education in Dublin with Trinity and the Catholic University which morphed into what is now UCD.

There's no teaching of theology at UCC for example, it's only course on religion is more the history / sociology of religion.

I just find that when you look anything to do with education here (especially primary) you're always within a few metres of a nun.

Those universities were absolutely castigated as "godless institutions" by both Protestant and Catholic clergy in the 1800s.

I just think it'd be nice to see a somewhat different take on primary education teacher training. UCC academics for example have been quite strongly linked to educate together.

I'd love to see NUIG take up the role of training teachers for Gaelscoil programmes. It's the ideal location!

Peregrinus · 15-06-2015 1:46am

expectationlost wrote: »

why after starting an approved list in 2011 did the church only start enforcing it in 2014?

I'm not sure that they did "start enforcing it in 2014".

They announced the approval arrangements in 2011 but, obviously, at that point nobody had approval. All that was announced was that approvals would be given, what a certificate would need to cover to secure approval, and what colleges needed to do to secure approval ("send details of their programmes (course outlines, learning outcomes, contact hours, and bibliographies) to the Council for Catechetics of the Irish Episcopal Conference"). There was a statement that to be approved the programmes would have to be "located on Level 7 of the NQAI framework, Special Purpose Certificate Award", would have to be validated by extern examiners, etc. So presumably Colleges were going to have to review their existing programmes, and upgrade them if necessary, before applying for episcopal approval. Then when Colleges did apply, you'd imagine review and approval (or refusal of approval) would take some time. So I don't think it was ever the case that everyone graduating from 2011 onwards was expected to have an approved certificate; all that happened in 2011 was that they announced that they wanted colleges to offer approved certificates, but it was clearly going to take some time before courses were designed, reviewed, approved and taught. It may be that it wasn't until 2014 that there was any expectation that a newly-graduated teacher would have an approved certificate, those applying for jobs were being asked by interview panels if they had an approved certificate, and Hibernia graduates were discovering that they didn't, while others did.

expectationlost · 15-06-2015 2:05am

Peregrinus wrote: »

I'm not sure that they did "start enforcing it in 2014".

They announced the approval arrangements in 2011 but, obviously, at that point nobody had approval. All that was announced was that approvals would be given, what a certificate would need to cover to secure approval, and what colleges needed to do to secure approval ("send details of their programmes (course outlines, learning outcomes, contact hours, and bibliographies) to the Council for Catechetics of the Irish Episcopal Conference"). There was a statement that to be approved the programmes would have to be "located on Level 7 of the NQAI framework, Special Purpose Certificate Award", would have to be validated by extern examiners, etc. So presumably Colleges were going to have to review their existing programmes, and upgrade them if necessary, before applying for episcopal approval. Then when Colleges did apply, you'd imagine review and approval (or refusal of approval) would take some time. So I don't think it was ever the case that everyone graduating from 2011 onwards was expected to have an approved certificate; all that happened in 2011 was that they announced that they wanted colleges to offer approved certificates, but it was clearly going to take some time before courses were designed, reviewed, approved and taught. It may be that it wasn't until 2014 that there was any expectation that a newly-graduated teacher would have an approved certificate, those applying for jobs were being asked by interview panels if they had an approved certificate, and Hibernia graduates were discovering that they didn't, while others did.

fair point about lead in time, but surely between 2011 and 2014 Hibernian would have looked into it, not impressed by Hibernian

btw Hibernian just got a new CEO article about them in the SBP

Primary school college course and atheism

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