Primary school college course and atheism

darealtulip · 10-03-2012 12:28pm

I have no idea if they will keep him on. I think they were going to review the whole course. But I can be wrong. I am not sure.

Michael Nugent or Jon Pierson can answer that maybe?

Galvasean · 10-03-2012 6:10pm

darealtulip wrote: »

It was in the Irish times:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0310/1224313106779.html

Sadly in the same paper:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0310/1224313105941.html

Baby steps huh?

wonderfulname · 10-03-2012 6:58pm

darealtulip wrote: »

It was in the Irish times:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0310/1224313106779.html

Sadly in the same paper:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0310/1224313105941.html

We have to reject it, everyone apparently has a constitutional right to educate their child in accordance with their beliefs, and this means schools with religious affiliation have to discriminate on that basis if numbers require it. I don't see a problem with it, I was rejected from CoI secondary schools at that age for being baptised catholic, I eventually wound up being taught by Quakers (my parents trying as best they could to get me away from the Catholic system, grateful for that!). I think minority religions, and indeed the minority of honest non-religious, should be allowed ensure their children are educated as they wish, isn't that what this thread is about to a degree?

I'll admit discrimination is a problem within the current set-up, sure every other week there seems to be a thread here weighing up the necessity of baptism for a child's education, but that's just a symptom of a larger problem, the fact that schools, and even education in general, is Catholic by default, rather than secular.
I'd prefer to see the bigger picture changed than see schools of minority religions forced to refuse students who have made a concious decision to apply based on ethos, surely that's counter-productive?

expectationlost · 10-03-2012 9:05pm

the quotes from Dr Nicholas Breakwell don't suggest he gets it http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0310/1224313106779.html

Dr Nicholas Breakwell, vice-president for academic affairs and knowledge management, said yesterday that “some offending slides identified by Atheist Ireland have been removed pending the annual review process” to which all courses at the college are subject.

how did that go last year?

He also said Atheist Ireland had been asked to prepare a module for the college “on atheism, what it believes and does not”.

Atheist don't believe.

recedite · 10-03-2012 9:06pm

wonderfulname wrote: »

I think minority religions, and indeed the minority of honest non-religious, should be allowed ensure their children are educated as they wish, isn't that what this thread is about to a degree?

No, not really. Its about the training of teachers who will be on the State payroll, and whether they should be trained to teach to the agendas of only two churches; RC and CoI.

The State cannot be expected to fund separate schools for every minority religion that comes along.

wonderfulname · 10-03-2012 9:14pm

recedite wrote: »

The State cannot be expected to fund separate schools for every minority religion that comes along.

They don't, not fully, don't know where you plucked that out of. The only religious schools with full funding as far as I know are Catholic, others are funded in part by parents and the organisation.

By the way I would see the question of the religious agenda of teacher training to be paramount to the constitutional right of a parent to have their child educated in accordance with their beliefs, how one could see it otherwise is beyond me, if it were otherwise then surely it would be insignificant?

darealtulip · 10-03-2012 10:16pm

wonderfulname wrote: »

They don't, not fully, don't know where you plucked that out of. The only religious schools with full funding as far as I know are Catholic, others are funded in part by parents and the organisation.

By the way I would see the question of the religious agenda of teacher training to be paramount to the constitutional right of a parent to have their child educated in accordance with their beliefs, how one could see it otherwise is beyond me, if it were otherwise then surely it would be insignificant?

Nope they fund most of them. Since all schools are private, except for a few VEC schools, so they all can get money even ET schools.

People have the right to educate their children in the religion that they want but not from tax money.

wonderfulname · 10-03-2012 11:06pm

darealtulip wrote: »

Nope they fund most of them. Since all schools are private, except for a few VEC schools, so they all can get money even ET schools.

Voluntary minority schools are not within the free education scheme though, the teachers are paid by the government, to do the same job as any other teacher, more in fact, they are expected to deal with higher student:teacher ratios, but that's about it. The schools are heavily funded by the parent or religious organisation unless the parent is deemed to be particularly poorly off. Catholic parents are the only ones with a guaranteed free education option for their kids, why does the taxpayer pay wholly for a glut of "catholic" education, but only in part (and only in a secular manner) towards the education of anyone else some of the rest?

Personally I think all faith schools should be run by a somewhat similar model, the government paying for the education, the parent/church for whatever else they want on top of that, everyone keeps their rights, nobody indoctrinates their child without at least considering it first, and of course that would be a system secular by default, rather than catholic.

Just one itty bitty last point, from the governments point of view, non-religious are included in minority religions, and would be expected to fit within this model outside areas of critical mass, the opinion you're presenting, that people have the right to educate in their religion just not from the taxpayers pocket, in the current system applies in part to you, but not the Catholics. Funny country but there you go, again, something that's a symptom rather than a problem, and really shouldn't be attacked in isolation.

recedite · 10-03-2012 11:52pm

Don't know what you are on about there.
What is a "voluntary minority school"?
"No religion" is not a religion, just like having the TV set switched off is not a channel.

equivariant · 11-03-2012 2:17am

wonderfulname wrote: »

By the way I would see the question of the religious agenda of teacher training to be paramount to the constitutional right of a parent to have their child educated in accordance with their beliefs, how one could see it otherwise is beyond me, if it were otherwise then surely it would be insignificant?

Is this actually a consitutional right? Genuine question, as I don't know our constitution well enough (

). However, if it is, I find that to be surprising. I would be surprised (and disappointed) if we have a "constitutional right" to attempt to impose our belief system on anyone else(even our own children).

Anyway, if it is a constitutional right, could you give a reference to the exact article of the constitution that say that. I would be interested to read that?

JonPierson · 11-03-2012 6:36am

equivariant wrote: »

Is this actually a consitutional right? Genuine question, as I don't know our constitution well enough ( ). However, if it is, I find that to be surprising. I would be surprised (and disappointed) if we have a "constitutional right" to attempt to impose our belief system on anyone else(even our own children).

Anyway, if it is a constitutional right, could you give a reference to the exact article of the constitution that say that. I would be interested to read that?

Have a read (http://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/eng/Youth_Zone/About_the_Constitution,_Flag,_Anthem_Harp/Constitution_of_Ireland_March_2010.pdf).

The very first line is:

In the Name of the Most Holy Trinity, from Whom is all authority and to Whom, as our final end, all actions both of men and States must be referred,

and, as far as a secular State is concerned, it goes downhill from there.

Michael Nugent · 11-03-2012 7:49am

This is Article 42 of the Constitution, which is about Education:

Irish Constitution wrote:

Article 42

1. The State acknowledges that the primary and natural educator of the child is the Family and guarantees to respect the inalienable right and duty of parents to provide, according to their means, for the religious and moral, intellectual, physical and social education of their children.

2. Parents shall be free to provide this education in their homes or in private schools or in schools recognised or established by the State.

3. 1° The State shall not oblige parents in violation of their conscience and lawful preference to send their children to schools established by the State, or to any particular type of school designated by the State.
2° The State shall, however, as guardian of the common good, require in view of actual conditions that the children receive a certain minimum education, moral, intellectual and social.

4. The State shall provide for free primary education and shall endeavour to supplement and give reasonable aid to private and corporate educational initiative, and, when the public good requires it, provide other educational facilities or institutions with due regard, however, for the rights of parents, especially in the matter of religious and moral formation.

5. In exceptional cases, where the parents for physical or moral reasons fail in their duty towards their children, the State as guardian of the common good, by appropriate means shall endeavour to supply the place of the parents, but always with due regard for the natural and imprescriptible rights of the child.

Some observations on this...

42.1 makes parents responsible for providing religious and moral, intellectual, physical and social education; while 42.3.2 makes the State responsible for requiring a minimum level of moral, intellectual and social education.

So it is parents, and not the State, that are solely responsible for the religious education of their children. The State does not even have a duty to require a minimum level of religious education; just of moral, intellectual and social education.

42.3.1 says that the State shall not oblige parents, in violation of their conscience, to send their children to any particular school or type of school. This (in theory) prevents a parent from having their child indoctrinated with religious beliefs different to their own.

But this is not the same thing as saying that the State shall provide a particular school that actively promotes their religious beliefs. It is a right to not have something specific done to you, not a right to have something specific done for you.

42.4 says that the State shall provide for free primary education, and it is the word ‘for’ in this clause that enables the State to cop out of its social responsibility to actually provide primary education, rather than provide ‘for’ primary education.

darealtulip · 11-03-2012 9:53am

wonderfulname wrote: »

Voluntary minority schools are not within the free education scheme though, the teachers are paid by the government, to do the same job as any other teacher, more in fact, they are expected to deal with higher student:teacher ratios, but that's about it. The schools are heavily funded by the parent or religious organisation unless the parent is deemed to be particularly poorly off. Catholic parents are the only ones with a guaranteed free education option for their kids, why does the taxpayer pay wholly for a glut of "catholic" education, but only in part (and only in a secular manner) towards the education of anyone else some of the rest?

Personally I think all faith schools should be run by a somewhat similar model, the government paying for the education, the parent/church for whatever else they want on top of that, everyone keeps their rights, nobody indoctrinates their child without at least considering it first, and of course that would be a system secular by default, rather than catholic.

Just one itty bitty last point, from the governments point of view, non-religious are included in minority religions, and would be expected to fit within this model outside areas of critical mass, the opinion you're presenting, that people have the right to educate in their religion just not from the taxpayers pocket, in the current system applies in part to you, but not the Catholics. Funny country but there you go, again, something that's a symptom rather than a problem, and really shouldn't be attacked in isolation.

My son goes to an school that is totally on it's own. It is not part of Educate Together but are affiliated with them. However this school is fully state funded.

I don't really understand what you mean with "on top of it". Every school wants extra funding so they can do extra things. Catholic schools don't get more money than non catholic schools. As far as I am aware you get paid per student attending the school in October. So as far as I know if they are not in the scheme than that is by choice.

I am not in favour of this whole patronage system as too much is depending on the Boards of Managements which have normally only 2 or 3 professional educators (The Principal and 1 or two teachers) and the other are priests or members of the community and a parent representative. Schools should be run be professionals.

I am very aware how the system works (or rather how it doesn't work) as I have been part of the BoM as well as part of the Executive Committee that is the patron of the school. What it boils down too is that the Principal can do what ever they want as the teacher won't vote against their boss. The chairman is from the patron who choose the Principal. In my experience of the two schools and what I hear from befriended principals is that a Board of Management just agrees with what ever the principal says.

Ok rant over and back op topic....

recedite · 11-03-2012 6:36pm

Michael Nugent wrote: »

42.3.2 makes the State responsible for requiring a minimum level of moral, intellectual and social education.

So it is parents, and not the State, that are solely responsible for the religious education of their children. The State does not even have a duty to require a minimum level of religious education; just of moral, intellectual and social education.

Interesting, so there should be no constitutional impediment to Dept. of Education funding a "non-denominational" school ? The school would still have to devote whatever time is specified by the national curriculum to teaching "about" religion/religions, but this is not a constitutional matter.

Zamboni · 12-03-2012 12:30pm

darealtulip wrote: »

Sadly in the same paper:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0310/1224313105941.html

Anger/frustration/disappointment all rolled into one.

token56 · 12-03-2012 2:27pm

Not sure where to put this but figured this thread would be ok, I see an announcement today about the construction of almost150 new primary and secondary schools in total. Does anyone know what denomination these new schools are going to be?

Link here btw: http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/govt-school-building-programme-to-create-15000-jobs-543238.html

Zamboni · 12-03-2012 3:08pm

token56 wrote: »

Not sure where to put this but figured this thread would be ok, I see an announcement today about the construction of almost150 new primary and secondary schools in total. Does anyone know what denomination these new schools are going to be?

Link here btw: http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/govt-school-building-programme-to-create-15000-jobs-543238.html

My guess is that Ruari Quinn is giving up on changing the current system and instead creating more schools and allowing other patron bodies the ability to increase their numbers.

JonPierson · 12-03-2012 4:27pm

token56 wrote: »

Not sure where to put this but figured this thread would be ok, I see an announcement today about the construction of almost150 new primary and secondary schools in total. Does anyone know what denomination these new schools are going to be?

Link here btw: http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/govt-school-building-programme-to-create-15000-jobs-543238.html

Atheist Ireland is not (yet!) as big as the Roman Catholic church but we are campaigning for a secular, state, primary school system.

I think that atheists, being atheists, have individual views and individual ways of living their religion-free lives. One attribute that a very many atheists have is that they are not 'joiners' and so, understandably, do not have any desire to join Atheist Ireland.

That's OK. But I hope that it doesn't mean that, maybe just this once, they won't stand up for what they (don't) believe in and help, personally, to achieve the goal of establishing a secular education system.

Again, Atheist Ireland is not some sort of a dictatorial organisation that requires members to do or not do anything. However, I would hope that all atheists, and the many religionists who believe that children should be given an equal education, free of religious indoctrination, in a state system will at least do something.

I think the best way to achieve this goal is to pressurise TDs and Senators. I know that Atheist Ireland is organising a lobbying campaign, as Atheist Ireland, but, in my opinion, that is not sufficient. TDs and Senators need to know that there is support, and growing support, for a secular, state education system to be created.

I would, therefore, appeal for anyone who thinks that this would be a good idea, to write to their TD, and any Senators they feel like, and tell them what they think. Maybe, if you agree with this idea, you could even start spreading the idea amongst people that you know, write to newspapers and text or phone-in to radio stations.

The new-build of primary schools is a golden opportunity to abolish the system of patronage and put education in the hands of the state, where I believe it belongs. Taxpayers are paying for the schools. Taxpayers are paying for the teachers. Taxpayers are paying the annual capitation fees. Why does the state hand over the operation and control of taxpayers' schools to outside bodies, including religions?

TDs' details are available at http://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/tdssenators/tds/

Senators' details are available at http://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/tdssenators/senators/

This is not a recruitment exercise for Atheist Ireland. If you want to see what Atheist Ireland is doing, though, go to atheist.ie

By the way, having recently qualified with an LLB in Irish Law, it is not only the provision of non-denominational education that bothers me, it is the whole issue of the denial of many other fundamental human rights and freedoms that deeply concenrs me. I've started to compile a full list of human rights, detailed in international human rights instruments, that have been denied to Irish citizens, many as a result of the influence of the Roman Catholic church on our constitution, legislation and other areas of people's lives. I hope to post it on the internet in the not too distant future.

tricky D · 12-03-2012 4:41pm

expectationlost wrote: »

Fr Vincent Twomey who rejected any problem with the course notes is still the author of Hibernia College religion courses isn't he? what does Hibernia College have to say about that.

I have been informed that Hibernia will be changing the content in question to something more balanced.

Tbh I don't think Hibernia had any malicious intent or agenda, they merely farmed out the content and didn't vet it well enough.

oceanclub · 12-03-2012 4:45pm

tricky D wrote: »

I have been informed that Hibernia will be changing the content in question to something more balanced.

Tbh I don't think Hibernia had any malicious intent or agenda, they merely farmed out the content and didn't vet it well enough.

That's true, but on the other hand, Twomey is still in charge of the course and on radio recently, vehemently denied any problem with his course. I can't see how they can change his course without his consent and expect him to the teach the new atheist-neutral material disapassionately.

P.

Fortyniner · 12-03-2012 4:46pm

Yes, there is an opportunity now to make a significant change to the way the country is run. We're all good at commentating, but it's time for some action.

Here in Cork we're lining up a supportive campaign with Atheist Ireland. I hope this will happen across the country.

expectationlost · 12-03-2012 4:52pm

tricky D wrote: »

I have been informed that Hibernia will be changing the content in question to something more balanced.

Tbh I don't think Hibernia had any malicious intent or agenda, they merely farmed out the content and didn't vet it well enough.

yes but you'd have to get Twomey and Hibernian course directors into the same room and see what they say then because again

Fr Vincent Twomey who rejected any problem with the course notes is still the author of Hibernia College religion courses isn't he?

I've been told that a condition of Hibernia being allowed to set up as teacher training college was to have somebody like Fr Vincent Twomey write both the religion as subject and religion as faith courses. The consequence of this choice were obvious, how long was this course in place, I don't think its acceptable for Hibernia to claim not to know what was in its courses.

and situation actually hasn't changed despite what AI say, they've been flattered into dropping it rather then dealing with the original issue.

Obviously this is an issue for Hibernia College to address I don't see the change yet.

tricky D · 12-03-2012 4:53pm

oceanclub wrote: »

I can't see how they can change his course without his consent and expect him to the teach the new atheist-neutral material disapassionately.

It's what I've been told from someone reliable and in a position to know. I also don't think he does the teaching or is in charge as such but only provides the content.

expectationlost · 12-03-2012 5:02pm

Fortyniner wrote: »

Yes, there is an opportunity now to make a significant change to the way the country is run. We're all good at commentating, but it's time for some action.

Here in Cork we're lining up a supportive campaign with Atheist Ireland. I hope this will happen across the country.

awaits hibernia action

It's what I've been told from someone reliable and in a position to know. I also don't think he does the teaching or is in charge as such but only provides the content.

yes and we are talking about the content, awaits hibernia action

lazygal · 12-03-2012 5:04pm

FAO Atheist Ireland - Any chance of a follow up meeting with Hibernia when the next take in of students commences to see how the course content has been changed?

Silver_525 · 14-03-2012 12:29am

Must say very impressed with the level of response and action to this thread. Well done op! I probably would never have come across that crazy stuff in the notes if I hadn't come across this thread- shows how enthusiastic I am about the prospect of teaching religion

Hopefully some long term, fixed action will be taken by the college...

JonPierson · 14-03-2012 1:39am

Silver_525 wrote: »

Must say very impressed with the level of response and action to this thread. Well done op! I probably would never have come across that crazy stuff in the notes if I hadn't come across this thread- shows how enthusiastic I am about the prospect of teaching religion

Hopefully some long term, fixed action will be taken by the college...

Welcome to the real world of Irish secularism, human rights and the separation of Church and State.

Michael Nugent (Chairman) and Jane Donnelly (Education Officer) of Atheist Ireland 'starred' on RTÉ's The Frontline on Monday night. The programme was about what religionists call "'aggressive' secularism" or what rational people call the introduction of a State in which neither religion or non-religious philosophy has any undue influence.

You can view the programme at http://www.rte.ie/player/#!v=1140150

I say you can view the programme. What I mean to say is that I can view the programme. I live in Meath with (allegedly) a 3Mbps microwave internet connection. You, on the other hand, may live further into the bog than I and have dial-up. What a pity that investment in 'science', like nation-wide high speed broadband, is deprived of much needed investment. Like, say, the, at least, €1,500,000 of taxpayers' money donated to the Roman Catholic church via grants to those unable to afford to dress up their children for first communion or confirmation. Or, better yet, the well over €9,000,000 a year of taxpayers' money donated to the Roman Catholic church to pay for 'chaplains' to preach to school children and to people in hospitals.

Yes, welcome to 21st century Ireland, and its Roman Catholic controlled State.

muppeteer · 14-03-2012 1:48am

JonPierson wrote: »

Or, better yet, the well over €9,000,000 a year of taxpayers' money donated to the Roman Catholic church to pay for 'chaplains' to preach to school children and to people in hospitals.

Yes, welcome to 21st century Ireland, and its Roman Catholic controlled State.

Whut? The state pays for chaplains in schools and hospitals? Where? I thought that the state only paid teachers wages in the denominational schools.

JonPierson · 14-03-2012 2:17am

muppeteer wrote: »

Whut? The state pays for chaplains in schools and hospitals? Where? I thought that the state only paid teachers wages in the denominational schools.

Ah... if only it were true. If you have the privilege of living in Ireland, and you are a taxpayer, you can bask in pleasure of knowing that your money, whilst budgets for essential needs for the worst off in society – like the provision of cookers and fridges for the poorest to provide cooked meals for their children and keep their food fresh – are being slashed, is helping to make sure that the Roman Catholic church doesn't have to sell a couple of its paintings in the Vatican, or any of its massive land-holdings in Ireland, to pay for its priests to spread the word of its god to the little children, and the sick, around the country – whether they want it to or not.

I am, genuinely, not being condescending, but what do think Atheist Ireland is about?

muppeteer · 14-03-2012 2:25am

JonPierson wrote: »

Ah... if only it were true. If you have the privilege of living in Ireland, and you are a taxpayer, you can bask in pleasure of knowing that your money, whilst budgets for essential needs for the worst off in society – like the provision of cookers and fridges for the poorest to provide cooked meals for their children and keep their food fresh – are being slashed, is helping to make sure that the Roman Catholic church doesn't have to sell a couple of its paintings in the Vatican, or any of its massive land-holdings in Ireland, to pay for its priests to spread the word of its god to the little children, and the sick, around the country – whether they want it to or not.

I am, genuinely, not being condescending, but what do think Atheist Ireland is about?

Emm you may have picked me up wrong. I was just asking are chaplains paid out of state monies for services in religious schools and hospitals on a similar basis to teachers being paid out of state monies in religious schools? I always assumed any chaplains would have been paid by their diocese?

And to avoid going completely off topic, well done everyone on getting results on this issue. Hopefully the college are serious about changing the content, even if they keep Fr Twomey for the time being.

Primary school college course and atheism

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