The Corrib Tape

BrianD · 05-04-2011 9:38am #1

Anybody listen to it?

I think there is a lesson to be learned re the confiscation of any recording equipment.

Listened to it. Starts with the arrest, all reasonably done it with seem.

A conversation then starts about the challenges of health and safety and removing protestors from heights. Nothing unreasonable about this. Every job has it s challenges.

One Garda makes an absolutely bizarre remark saying "give me your name or I'll rape you". While completely inappropriate it was made in jest in private amongst colleagues and not to a member of the public. Why this would enter the mind of somebody to say even in private is beyond me. A wrong and inappropriate remark - it's not something that you joke about.

Anyway talk about landing a prize PR coup to the protestors!

Contra Proferentem · 05-04-2011 10:01am

Naturally it's already being discussed in AH.

I remember the open mics back in the old days of hobby listening to the locals which were along similar lines. I guess it comes down to being more careful in the environment you speak in, at the moment for instance using a public computer, there's a team of techies sniffing what I post.

Make sure things are turned off, and placed in the boot of a car I would guess.

gilly0512 · 05-04-2011 10:05am

Surprise surprise it is now the lead story on every news bulletin, we really have become a nation that just loves rubbish tabloid stories. While the comments that were made were stupid, they were made in jest and in private, and I sincerely hope that the members in question to not suffer anything more than a slap on the wrist.

Bosh · 05-04-2011 10:09am

Sorry guys... AH?

:o

JonJoeDali · 05-04-2011 10:22am

I'd say the wives/girlfriends of these guys won't be best pleased. That's where the real punishment will take place, whatever about their careers.

MagicSean · 05-04-2011 10:33am

JonJoeDali wrote: »

I'd say the wives/girlfriends of these guys won't be best pleased. That's where the real punishment will take place, whatever about their careers.

I doubt it. Anyone who knows a Garda, or anyone in the emergency services, knows their sense of humour can be warped and that it is a mechanism for coping with the trauma and stress in the job.

ifiwasonlyrich · 05-04-2011 10:53am

I agree with ye all. Although, you'll get the feminist screaming "you can't joke about rape", and granted, no you can't, but not in the context they were saying. Due to all the genuine corrupt members of policing, I think the lads did as is, a joke, and made in jest, would they have pursued in raping the woman?! Hell no!
I did have to snigger myself a bit when I read the transcript "Will ya be me friend on facebook"......:p

CaseyRyback · 05-04-2011 11:05am

k_mac wrote: »

I doubt it. Anyone who knows a Garda, or anyone in the emergency services, knows their sense of humour can be warped and that it is a mechanism for coping with the trauma and stress in the job.

I expect the majority of persons on here will have said something at some point in their lives they would rather didn't wind up in the national press. Such a gaffe only becomes newsworthy however when its someone in authority that's caught out.

Read all about it! Cops make inappropriate remarks in private!!!

Yawn. Slow news day.

Beruthiel · 05-04-2011 11:18am

ifiwasonlyrich wrote: »

Although, you'll get the feminist screaming "you can't joke about rape"

As a Garda, in uniform, doing your job, comments about rape, even to another colleague just aren't funny and completely inappropriate.
I fail to see how you have to be a feminist to understand that fact.

Sure, they were made in what they thought was a private conversation, that doesn't stop the joke from being completely inappropriate.
I mean, are you not expected to behave in a manner that will uphold the honour of having a Garda position and not embarrass your fellow colleagues during a working day?
Doesn't being a Garda come with an expectation of respect from the general population?
I have always viewed being a Garda as taking an honorable position in life. Modern day warriors appointed to protect their fellow citizens.
Perhaps I've spent too much time reading about Cormac mac Art, who formed the Fianna, for the protection of the kingdom and tend to see the Garda as their decedents.

Newbie_2009 · 05-04-2011 11:21am

It sounded like something of the Hardy Bucks. although innocent enough in the grand scheme of things

professore · 05-04-2011 11:27am

Beruthiel wrote: »

As a Garda, in uniform, doing your job, comments about rape, even to another colleague just aren't funny and completely inappropriate.
I fail to see how you have to be a feminist to understand that fact.

Sure, they were made in what they thought was a private conversation, that doesn't stop the joke from being completely inappropriate.
I mean, are you not expected to behave in a manner that will uphold the honour of having a Garda position and not embarrass your fellow colleagues during a working day?
Doesn't being a Garda come with an expectation of respect from the general population?
I have always viewed being a Garda as taking an honorable position in life. Modern day warriors appointed to protect their fellow citizens.
Perhaps I've spent too much time reading about Cormac mac Art, who formed the Fianna, for the protection of the kingdom and tend to see the Garda as their decedents.

To be fair, I think you have unreasonable expectations. Of course they should not joke about something like this and should get a telling off but in the context of the conversation, which they assumed was in private, it was a stupid thing to say. Even the other guard said "I wouldn't go that far Jim" obviously seeing it was an inappropriate comment.

Gardai are human beings, thankfully, with the good and the bad that brings. They seemed to do a professional job with the protestors. I would find dealing with these protestors very frustrating in the extreme, and letting off steam in private probably keeps them sane. Give them a break in this case.

gbee · 05-04-2011 11:27am

Contra Proferentem wrote: »

Naturally it's already being discussed in AH.

I remember the open mics back in the old days of hobby listening to the locals which were along similar lines. I guess it comes down to being more careful in the environment you speak in, at the moment for instance using a public computer, there's a team of techies sniffing what I post.

Make sure things are turned off, and placed in the boot of a car I would guess.

Listen again. A comment comes up about being deported. Then 'and raped' and afer this the male locker room banter began.

At no stage was rape threatened or taken seriously.

BrianD · 05-04-2011 11:28am

Beruthiel wrote: »

As a Garda, in uniform, doing your job, comments about rape, even to another colleague just aren't funny and completely inappropriate.
I fail to see how you have to be a feminist to understand that fact.

Sure, they were made in what they thought was a private conversation, that doesn't stop the joke from being completely inappropriate.
I mean, are you not expected to behave in a manner that will uphold the honour of having a Garda position and not embarrass your fellow colleagues during a working day?
Doesn't being a Garda come with an expectation of respect from the general population?
I have always viewed being a Garda as taking an honorable position in life. Modern day warriors appointed to protect their fellow citizens.
Perhaps I've spent too much time reading about Cormac mac Art, who formed the Fianna, for the protection of the kingdom and tend to see the Garda as their decedents.

I think the comments were inappropriate and an odd subject to joke about in private. However, it is clear from the tape that the comment was an inappropriate joke in private and not a threat made in public to a member of the public. It is being wrongly spun by the protestors as a threat to members of the public.

Did they ever get that ladder?

gbee · 05-04-2011 11:30am

professore wrote: »

To be fair, I think you have unreasonable expectations. Of course they should not joke about something like this and should get a telling off but in the context of the conversation, which they assumed was in private, it was a stupid thing to say. Even the other guard said "I wouldn't go that far Jim" obviously seeing it was an inappropriate comment.

Gardai are human beings, thankfully, with the good and the bad that brings. They seemed to do a professional job with the protestors. I would find dealing with these protestors very frustrating in the extreme, and letting off steam in private probably keeps them sane. Give them a break in this case.

Whilst I agree, the quote of not going that far was qualified by comments of where the woman lived.

CaseyRyback · 05-04-2011 11:36am

Beruthiel wrote: »

Doesn't being a Garda come with an expectation of respect from the general population?

As it stands they will probably be disciplined for what was a stupid remark, despite it being made in private. Where a Guard falls short of what is expected by the public vis a vis professionalism there are various remedies open to management. Indeed there are few other roles where a person is so accountable for their behaviour, in public or private.

Contra Proferentem · 05-04-2011 11:40am

gbee wrote: »

Listen again. A comment comes up about being deported. Then 'and raped' and afer this the male locker room banter began.

At no stage was rape threatened or taken seriously.

No, I agree with that if you read my posts in AH. It's a storm in a teacup to be honest, discipline and move forward.

If people's every move, comment, etc. was recorded (a la facebook), I have a feeling that moral outrage would be the most renewable force on earth.

Buceph · 05-04-2011 12:07pm

Contra Proferentem wrote: »

No, I agree with that if you read my posts in AH. It's a storm in a teacup to be honest, discipline and move forward.

If people's every move, comment, etc. was recorded (a la facebook), I have a feeling that moral outrage would be the most renewable force on earth.

I agree, but I think there are scenarios where moral disgust (outrage is too strong a word for this) is acceptable and this is one of the cases. It wasn't just a guard making an offensive joke, it was a guard joking about abusing his powers, and it was a guard making a joke about abusing his powers in one of the most heinous ways.

Someone said there are few people in jobs where they're held to this standard, there's barristers, solicitors, doctors, nurses, priests (at least they should be held to a standard) pretty much all of the professions and any of the frontline services. But everyone in those jobs knows the standard they'll be held to before signing up to the jobs.

Like I said in AH, I have no problem where they joked about her being a crusty and not wanting to shag her because they might catch a disease. That's just a reaction to dealing with the protestors, and pretty normal joking about. But because it dealt with rape and abuse of powers it's something that goes beyond what's fine for a joke. I don't think there are many areas where this would be true, but some examples I could give are, arresting a black guy and joking about enslaving him, arresting someone who is Jewish and joking about genocide or gas chambers, or arresting someone from the North and joking about planting a bomb on them. All in all it's the combination of the situation (someone under arrest) and the joke (rape.)

As for punishment, a bollocking from whoever's in charge of their station, another bollocking from someone even higher up the totem pole. And someone from the rape crisis centre talking to them for a few hours (and just them, not a stationwide talk.) And I think they should be on their best behaviour for the next few months.

Finnbar01 · 05-04-2011 3:47pm

Buceph wrote: »

I agree, but I think there are scenarios where moral disgust (outrage is too strong a word for this) is acceptable and this is one of the cases. It wasn't just a guard making an offensive joke, it was a guard joking about abusing his powers, and it was a guard making a joke about abusing his powers in one of the most heinous ways.

The gardaí were making a simple joke in a private capacity. Should we insist that all conversations between garda are recorded when carrying out their duties?

Someone said there are few people in jobs where they're held to this standard, there's barristers, solicitors, doctors, nurses, priests (at least they should be held to a standard) pretty much all of the professions and any of the frontline services. But everyone in those jobs knows the standard they'll be held to before signing up to the jobs.

It’s part of human nature to be crude and rude. As another poster mentioned, sometimes it’s essential to have a warped sense of humour to help deal with the stresses of at times a difficult and demanding job.

Like I said in AH, I have no problem where they joked about her being a crusty and not wanting to shag her because they might catch a disease. That's just a reaction to dealing with the protestors, and pretty normal joking about.

But some other people may have a problem with jokes about protesters and STD’s, who’s to say that’s acceptable but other types of jokes are not?

But because it dealt with rape and abuse of powers it's something that goes beyond what's fine for a joke. I don't think there are many areas where this would be true, but some examples I could give are, arresting a black guy and joking about enslaving him, arresting someone who is Jewish and joking about genocide or gas chambers, or arresting someone from the North and joking about planting a bomb on them. All in all it's the combination of the situation (someone under arrest) and the joke (rape.)

But again, the joke was made in private. It couldn’t have caused any offence because it wasn’t made in the ear shot of the people who were the subject of the joke.

As for punishment, a bollocking from whoever's in charge of their station, another bollocking from someone even higher up the totem pole. And someone from the rape crisis centre talking to them for a few hours (and just them, not a stationwide talk.) And I think they should be on their best behaviour for the next few months.

A bollocking for cracking a joke and a dressing down from the rape crisis centre? Why, are you suggesting that the garda involved don’t take rape seriously. If they don’t no amount of bollocking or dressing downs will change their mind on the matter, so what you are calling for is a trivial and useless publicity stunt.

I’ve always seeing garda as ordinary joe soaps in uniform. They command our respect because of their position to uphold the law and ensures the rights of us citizens are protected but from reading this threads and threads on other forums, most people demand they become paradigms of virtue that can do no wrong, least of all crack bad tasting jokes in a private manner.

chahop · 05-04-2011 4:00pm

I'm not a Guard and think this has been blown out of all proportion, as it was a private discussion between colleague's not a threat to the lady, but as for just a slap on the wrist I think they should get more.
If this was in a private company and some staff members were found to be joking about rapeing a other menber of staff or a client they would be sacked or at least supended without pay.
BTW the reporting of this has been shocking.
Just my 2c

Buceph · 05-04-2011 4:06pm

They engaged in bravado dressing up the powers they have over members of public to the point of hypothetical rape. That's not a healthy stance for anyone entrusted with authority.

I don't mind them joking. I think joking about rape was stupid, but joking about something isn't the problem. And you can't see past your own point of viewk, "that it was all a joke" to take in someone else's point of view which isn't reliant on the joke at all. I couldn't care less about what they joke about. The joke is merely an indicator that they don't have a grounded view on their own purpose as guards. And I think that's dangerous, because if they don't have a sense of what the responsibilities of their authority is, they shouldn't have that authority. However, leading from that I don't think there's any grave failing. I think if it was explained to them that putting your power to arrest and the resulting power to instigate deportation in the same context as the psychopathic idea of the power play in rape isn't something they should be doing. And when they do that they should be made look at why it's wrong.

There are other issues that result from this, and that result from the simple act of joking about rape (the police's attitude to rape, the gravity with which they must conduct themselves, their inability to keep their insensitive joking private, etc..) However I think that the biggest problem is their failure to keep their power's as officers of the state separate from bravado and machismo.

Mr Jinx · 05-04-2011 4:54pm

Buceph wrote: »

They engaged in bravado dressing up the powers they have over members of public to the point of hypothetical rape. That's not a healthy stance for anyone entrusted with authority.

However I think that the biggest problem is their failure to keep their power's as officers of the state separate from bravado and machismo.

But this is exactly what they did..... They dealt with the situation involving the women and the protesters in a professional manner, and made a joke about it later while they were alone having a private conversation.

Random · 05-04-2011 5:10pm

this is bs media hype from what i've read so far. it reminds me of the sky sports thing. fair enough they were stupid / unluckly (depending on how you look at it) to be overheard/caught (again depending on what way you phrase it) but they didn't do anything wrong in my opinion. they were blowing off some steam in a private conversation among colleagues. if either of their colleagues feel the need to complain then fair enough but the women really have no right to comlpain from what i see. the women made the tape public themselves from what i understand.

the way the media is blasting this out a few people i've spoke to actually thing the 2 women were in the car with them!

r3nu4l · 05-04-2011 5:19pm

Bosh wrote: »

Sorry guys... AH? :o

The Afhter Hours Forum in the Rec category.

Lads and ladies, I'm not in the Emergency Services, I work in private industry as a medical communicator. We record telephone calls with our clients on a daily basis. If I made a comment like that in private to a colleague and it was recorded on the dictaphone and my boss heard it, I'd be sacked in an instant and rightly so.

This 'it's all just media hype' is hogwash. Same for the 'ah sure all the lads talk like that', especially in the context that the Gardaí SHOULD be the first people a rape victim approaches. This kind of comment has repercussions for some future victims of rape as it will likely be remembered. It's already hard enough for these victims to come forward without thinking that they will be laughed and joked about behind their backs the minute they leave the station or hospital after filing a complaint.

The Garda who said this may have been joking, he may have meant nothing by it but it was still a bloody stupid thing to say, especially on duty. Had he said that down the pub to his mates I'd be looking at it a bit differently (I'd still think he was an idiot) but he was on duty when he said it.

Total facepalm moment.

EDIT: Oh and for the record, I despise the Shell to Sea protesters and all of their ilk so my comments have nothing to do with that!

05-04-2011 5:37pm

My reply, when I seen it in AH was;

Deleted User wrote: »

Only seen this thread now, and heard the video.

Personally I find the conversation hilarious. The lads talking about how they were thaught in training to remove people from heights and saying that they should have had to erect a scaffolding inthe road and abseil the women down and such, and then talking about where they'd get step ladders from and if they'd be the right height etc.

I've worked alongside many people, from cabinet makers, carpenters, plumbers, photographers, bouncers, retail and restaurant staff, etc. and I've very often heard the word rape been thrown around. I've often used it as an ice-breaker myself. Never seen anyone getting upset about it.

supermedic · 05-04-2011 5:46pm

I'm knocking around in the emergency service for 20 years and I've heard some stuff that was an awful lot worse than this. We've got a fairly ****ty job some times and sometimes what most "ordinary" people would find distasteful, we use as a topic for banter at station level. It can get very very close to the bone often, but no menace what so ever is meant. Any conversations recorded in any Fire, Ambulance , Garda station on any night would give rise to the same sort of "moral" outrage. It was an inappropriate topic for the lads, but i hope a couple of probably decent lads do not swing for this

Finnbar01 · 05-04-2011 6:14pm

They engaged in bravado dressing up the powers they have over members of public to the point of hypothetical rape. That's not a healthy stance for anyone entrusted with authority.

And that’s what exactly what it was a joke about hypothetical rape. Not a threat of or a real rape.

I don't mind them joking. I think joking about rape was stupid, but joking about something isn't the problem. And you can't see past your own point of viewk, "that it was all a joke" to take in someone else's point of view which isn't reliant on the joke at all. I couldn't care less about what they joke about.

I could easily say that you can’t see pass your own point of view either

The joke is merely an indicator that they don't have a grounded view on their own purpose as guards.

Excuse me, but this sentence makes no sense. If what they joked about was ‘merely’ an indicator of what their view is, it suggests that their joking isn’t to be taking that seriously at all.( Which it shouldn’t)

And I think that's dangerous, because if they don't have a sense of what the responsibilities of their authority is, they shouldn't have that authority.

I’m sure they do know their responsibilities. They didn’t threaten or intimidate anyone with rape.

However, leading from that I don't think there's any grave failing. I think if it was explained to them that putting your power to arrest and the resulting power to instigate deportation in the same context as the psychopathic idea of the power play in rape isn't something they should be doing. And when they do that they should be made look at why it's wrong.

You’re looking way too much into this. If these gardai don’t believe rape is wrong, I don’t think anything at this stage would convince them otherwise.

There are other issues that result from this, and that result from the simple act of joking about rape (the police's attitude to rape, the gravity with which they must conduct themselves, their inability to keep their insensitive joking private, etc..)

But that’s exactly it, their joking was private. If was Shell to sea that decided to make it public.

However I think that the biggest problem is their failure to keep their power's as officers of the state separate from bravado and machismo.

Is that not sexism? Don’t women joke in privately too in a crude warped sort of manner?

salonfire · 05-04-2011 6:16pm

professore wrote: »

To be fair, I think you have unreasonable expectations. Of course they should not joke about something like this and should get a telling off but in the context of the conversation, which they assumed was in private, it was a stupid thing to say. Even the other guard said "I wouldn't go that far Jim" obviously seeing it was an inappropriate comment.

Gardai are human beings, thankfully, with the good and the bad that brings. They seemed to do a professional job with the protestors. I would find dealing with these protestors very frustrating in the extreme, and letting off steam in private probably keeps them sane. Give them a break in this case.

Oh, did the version of the video you listened to cut-off right after that sentence??

Then let me finish it off for you:

I wouldn’t go quite that far now yet Jim. She was living down in that crusty camp, f***’s sake, you never know what you might get

We all have colleagues that can say stupid and inappropriate things, but for both men to continue the rape joke was disgusting.

How can anyone joke about raping a girl?
Men might comment on a girl's arse or tits (sorry for the crudeness!) or something, but rape?! Not something you'd expect from any professional

vetstu · 05-04-2011 6:34pm

What would happen if someone told a bangarda that they were going to rape her?
I'd say it would not be regarded as a throwaway comment.

Spacedog · 05-04-2011 6:40pm

Why was the woman holding the camera arrested?

Finnbar01 · 05-04-2011 6:43pm

vetstu wrote: »

What would happen if someone told a bangarda that they were going to rape her?
I'd say it would not be regarded as a throwaway comment.

No it wouldn't, but the gardaí didn't threaten anyone with rape.

cocoshovel · 05-04-2011 7:00pm

Christ, I'm finding it annoying the way this is plastered everywhere in bold writing as headlines and top news stories. He just made a small crude joke that any person could of made. It wasnt even that bad when I heard it. Even my friends and I would make jokes like this quite often, infact nearly everybody I know would make a similar joke every now and then. There is no harm intended with this comment. Its just being blown massively out of proportion because a Garda said it. Why doesn't RTE and other news sources put up major top headlines like this when ordinary Joe from down the road makes a comment like this if thats the case? Because people just like to take any shot at the Gardai whenever they can, and they don't care about what anybody else does or says. You're only fooling yourself if you think this kind of joke is out of the ordinary these days.

The Corrib Tape

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