Fallout from the minor hurling semi final - Galway v Limerick

Lapin · 20-08-2013 5:55pm #1

Limerick have lodged an objection to Sunday's result with Croke Park and it has just been announced that the team are to return to training tomorrow evening in anticipation of a rematch been granted.

I think they should let it go and accept the result with dignity while they still have some left.

The Hawk Eye incident occured early in the first half and Limerick had the rest of the game to get over it. With the extra time they had well over an hour of hurling to put things right.

Both teams started on an equal footing going into extra time with Galway eventually proving to be the better side on the day by going on to win by 3 points. A fact acknowledged by the Limerick manager after the game.

It would be different if the controversial incident happened in the dying moments of the game and Limerick didn't have time to respond to it on the field of play. But as I said above, they had over an hour to do so last Sunday and they didn't.

No need for a rematch.

I genuinely wish Limerick (both minor and senior teams) the very best of luck in 2014.

niallo27 · 20-08-2013 6:04pm

Isn't extra time technically a new game anyway. From a neural point of view this is making limerick look very bitter.

limklad · 20-08-2013 6:36pm

I do not consider Limerick minor having a chance of getting a replay. There been many scoring incidents by referee and umpires that cost games for losing matches and the results still stood. That the way the games unfortunately went. Hawk-eye is no different than umpires/referee in the decision making process.

Anyway Rule 7.10(n) does allow for referee mistakes to allow or not allow a score

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/limerick-to-lodge-appeal-against-result-in-wake-of-hawk-eye-debacle-1.1499272?page=2
Challenging the result
Disputed scores are not valid grounds for challenging the results of matches. According to Rule 7.10 (n) of the Official Guide: “… however no Objection or Counter-Objection may be submitted on grounds that a referee had incorrectly allowed or failed to allow a score.”

It happen very early in the match to have a damping impact. Many a score have been disallowed in club and other inter county matches by referees in the past.

One thing for sure it was a very good match to watch. Better than the senior match.

grenache · 20-08-2013 6:36pm

We don't deserve a replay. But we are in need of an apology from Croke Park. Fobbing us with this "inconsistencies with the technology" is not good enough. Give us a direct apology or nothing. It shouldn't be left to the Hawkeye bosses. The GAA are complicit in this too.

But not a replay. I as a Limerician would be embarrassed if we got one. Galway were marginally the better team and deserved their victory.

Browney7 · 20-08-2013 6:44pm

grenache wrote: »

We don't deserve a replay. But we are in need of an apology from Croke Park. Fobbing us with this "inconsistencies with the technology" is not good us. Give us a direct apology or nothing. It shouldn't be left to the Hawkeye bosses. The GAA are complicit in this too.

But not a replay. I as a Limerician would be embarrassed if we got one. Galway were marginally the better team and deserved their victory.

Agree with Grenache on this one. Said as much in the Limerick thread. I don't think its bitterness either though. Think the county board are doing it to show they ain't happy with how it went down but it just smacks of John Delaney after Henry.

Also, Duignan (who wouldn't exactly be pro anyone to be fair) nearly went as far as to say Limerick should appeal. The rules may be open to interpretation too as the referee did technically allow the score and he put it in the notebook at first so there could be a loophole there that some lawyer could exploit as there is no precedent with regards to Hawkeye.

I wouldn't appeal and I think most Limerick people feel the same really.

Utopia Parkway · 20-08-2013 6:44pm

Genuinely feel sorry for Limerick but the game went to extra-time (essentially a mini replay in itself) and Galway won it fair and square in extra-time.

Browney7 · 20-08-2013 6:47pm

Utopia Parkway wrote: »

Genuinely feel sorry for Limerick but the game went to extra-time (essentially a mini replay in itself) and Galway won it fair and square in extra-time.

My own gripe would be that the Gaa made the decision for extra time. Felt lads deserved a replay. The senior would have been so I don't think minor should be different but that's another discussion.

jjjd · 20-08-2013 7:45pm

Laois v Carlow in the mid 90's opened up a Pandora's Box by agreeing a replay after a similar incident. Seems to me that Croke Park can never think on its feet on big match days. e.g. when the referee blew the final whistle too early in 1998, instead of clearing the field and finishing the game they allowed Offaly supporters have a sit down protest which led to a replay and potentially cost Clare an All-Ireland; when Louth were denied a Leinster title the referee's wrong call was allowed to stand and the question of a replay was left up to the Meath players; on Sunday instead of making the obvious decision of adding on a point to the Limerick score at half-time they again did nothing. Croke Park should this time DO SOMETHING so that the injustice meted out to Clare and Louth in the past will not now be visited on Limerick. Time for Croke Park to show a bit of real leadership, instead of quoting sterile rule books. Give fair play to these young lads, it's the least they deserve. It seems to me that Limerick have good grounds to appeal, in that the referee had awarded the point, but the referee was overruled in error by faulty technology. Galway should offer Limerick a replay. It's the sporting thing to do. Especially as they benefited from the electronic glitch, as Limerick would have won the game by a point had Hawkeye not been used. Are Galway the new Meath? Is this how they want to be remembered by the sporting public? Is this the manner in which they are happy to accept victory? Meath got a lot a lot of stick for not offering Louth a replay and rightly so. Galway should take a leaf out of Ger Loughnane's book. The GAA prides itself on great character but that is thin on the ground if they do not offer a replay. If Galway don't offer a replay, then the GAA should make a stand and order a replay in the interests of fair play.

Utopia Parkway · 20-08-2013 8:09pm

In fairness the ref made sure in the closing minutes that the game would end in a draw (probably hoping to avoid any controversy) and the incident itself came so early in the game that there is no way to be sure that it had any definitive impact on the result. Sucks for Limerick alright but I can't see there being a replay.

niallo27 · 20-08-2013 8:55pm

If the ref had given the point he wouldn't have played the extra injury time to allow limerick draw level. The game would have ended in a draw either way.

jjjd · 20-08-2013 9:18pm

niallo27 wrote: »

If the ref had given the point he wouldn't have played the extra injury time to allow limerick draw level. The game would have ended in a draw either way.

That is mere speculation. You cannot conclusively state that the game would have ended in a draw. But we can all agree conclusively that the ball went between the points. Hence Limerick have solid grounds for appeal. There is a huge difference. And btw the referee did not play extra injury time, it is completely at his discretion how much injury time is played.

niallo27 · 20-08-2013 9:21pm

jjjd wrote: »

That is mere speculation. You cannot conclusively state that the game would have ended in a draw. But we can all agree conclusively that the ball went between the points. Hence Limerick have solid grounds for appeal. There is a huge difference. And btw the referee did not play extra injury time, it is completely at his discretion how much injury time is played.

Do you honestly believe he would have played the extra minute if the scores were level.

jjjd · 20-08-2013 9:36pm

niallo27 wrote: »

Do you honestly believe he would have played the extra minute if the scores were level.

Again, mere speculation. Don't see how this is even relevant to Limerick appealing the result. The referee decides how much injury time he feels is required. All he ensures is that he plays at least the time on the board. If anything he would have preferred one team to win and save himself the hassle of extra time.

niallo27 · 20-08-2013 9:47pm

jjjd wrote: »

Again, mere speculation. Don't see how this is even relevant to Limerick appealing the result. The referee decides how much injury time he feels is required. All he ensures is that he plays at least the time on the board. If anything he would have preferred one team to win and save himself the hassle of extra time.

The ref knew the situation, if he didnt want extra time he could have blown after the 1 minute of injury time. Listen I'd be pissed off it happened to Clare as well. I feel if he had blown up with Galway winning by a point then limerick would have grounds for appeal but surely the extra time was another game.

Fr Tod Umptious · 20-08-2013 10:26pm

jjjd wrote: »

Laois v Carlow in the mid 90's opened up a Pandora's Box by agreeing a replay after a similar incident. Seems to me that Croke Park can never think on its feet on big match days. e.g. when the referee blew the final whistle too early in 1998, instead of clearing the field and finishing the game they allowed Offaly supporters have a sit down protest which led to a replay and potentially cost Clare an All-Ireland; when Louth were denied a Leinster title the referee's wrong call was allowed to stand and the question of a replay was left up to the Meath players; on Sunday instead of making the obvious decision of adding on a point to the Limerick score at half-time they again did nothing. Croke Park should this time DO SOMETHING so that the injustice meted out to Clare and Louth in the past will not now be visited on Limerick. Time for Croke Park to show a bit of real leadership, instead of quoting sterile rule books. Give fair play to these young lads, it's the least they deserve. It seems to me that Limerick have good grounds to appeal, in that the referee had awarded the point, but the referee was overruled in error by faulty technology. Galway should offer Limerick a replay. It's the sporting thing to do. Especially as they benefited from the electronic glitch, as Limerick would have won the game by a point had Hawkeye not been used. Are Galway the new Meath? Is this how they want to be remembered by the sporting public? Is this the manner in which they are happy to accept victory? Meath got a lot a lot of stick for not offering Louth a replay and rightly so. Galway should take a leaf out of Ger Loughnane's book. The GAA prides itself on great character but that is thin on the ground if they do not offer a replay. If Galway don't offer a replay, then the GAA should make a stand and order a replay in the interests of fair play.

But the official outcome of the review was a MISS, I know the graphic indicated otherwise, so the ref had no choice but to take away the score, he could not have just added it on at half time as you suggest.

jjjd · 20-08-2013 10:39pm

niallo27 wrote: »

The ref knew the situation, if he didnt want extra time he could have blown after the 1 minute of injury time. Listen I'd be pissed off it happened to Clare as well. I feel if he had blown up with Galway winning by a point then limerick would have grounds for appeal but surely the extra time was another game.

It doesn't matter a jot what time the error was made or how much time was left to remedy it on the field of play. The fact remains that Limerick scored a perfectly legitimate point which was incorrectly shown as wide by Hawk Eye, initially awarded and then disallowed by the referee. Had Galway won by a massive margin we wouldn't be having this discussion. They didn't though, it finished as a draw after 60 minutes, as close as that, so yes, that point would have made an absolute difference. Fundamentally the GAA acknowledged the mistake its system had made there and then by pulling the system for the remainder of the day. At least when your county, Clare, were wronged by the referee in 1998 Clare showed great sportsmanship in offering Offaly a replay.
I think its completely reasonable to seek a replay, not so much for winning or losing but more for fair play. These youngsters have trained hard all year, a huge investment and sacrifice has been made by their families driving them here there and everywhere, and they are entitled to fair play. They have been training hard all year, some of these lads are only 15 or 16 years of age. Give them a replay and set a fair play example early in their careers. Even when Thierry Henry handled the ball which led to France's goal you would find very few people in Ireland who were against a replay.

InchicoreDude · 20-08-2013 10:39pm

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

But the official outcome of the review was a MISS, I know the graphic indicated otherwise, so the ref had no choice but to take away the score, he could not have just added it on at half time as you suggest.

If I remember correctly, I think the ref does actually have the power to over-rule hawkeye.

But I agree, it would not make too much sense to add on a score at half time. Games are played in the context of the score at that time, so if the miss was given at the time, a miss should stand.

InchicoreDude · 20-08-2013 10:42pm

jjjd wrote: »

It doesn't matter a jot what time the error was made or how much time was left to remedy it on the field of play. The fact remains that Limerick scored a perfectly legitimate point which was incorrectly shown as wide by Hawk Eye, initially awarded and then disallowed by the referee. Had Galway won by a massive margin we wouldn't be having this discussion. They didn't though, it finished as a draw after 60 minutes, as close as that, so yes, that point would have made an absolute difference. Fundamentally the GAA acknowledged the mistake its system had made there and then by pulling the system for the remainder of the day. At least when your county, Clare, were wronged by the referee in 1998 Clare showed great sportsmanship in offering Offaly a replay.
I think its completely reasonable to seek a replay, not so much for winning or losing but more for fair play. These youngsters have trained hard all year, a huge investment and sacrifice has been made by their families driving them here there and everywhere, and they are entitled to fair play. They have been training hard all year, some of these lads are only 15 or 16 years of age. Give them a replay and set a fair play example early in their careers. Even when Thierry Henry handled the ball which led to France's goal you would find very few people in Ireland who were against a replay.

But in GAA, extra-time is essentially a replay. Its just a shorter one and one that happens directly after the first match. I think Limerick would have better grounds for appeal if they lost by a point in 60 minutes. But they didnt. They had the opportunity to win in extra time. I dont see how the extra time period that Limerick got to play is much different to getting a replay now.

jjjd · 20-08-2013 10:46pm

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

But the official outcome of the review was a MISS, I know the graphic indicated otherwise, so the ref had no choice but to take away the score, he could not have just added it on at half time as you suggest.

Can the referee not use his discretion and over rule Hawkeye? Does the referee have to accept Hawkeye's interpretation? Especially as no one on the field of play disputed the point?

InchicoreDude · 20-08-2013 10:51pm

jjjd wrote: »

Can the referee not use his discretion and over rule Hawkeye? Does the referee have to accept Hawkeye's interpretation? Especially as no one on the field of play disputed the point?

***************************************************
8. What if a referee wants to over-rule Hawk-Eye for some reason?

He can still do so, as he has ultimate authority. However, it's very unlikely that a referee will take on technology.
***************************************************

http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-football/the-what-ifs-of-hawkeye-29271124.html

jjjd · 20-08-2013 11:01pm

InchicoreDude wrote: »

But in GAA, extra-time is essentially a replay. Its just a shorter one and one that happens directly after the first match. I think Limerick would have better grounds for appeal if they lost by a point in 60 minutes. But they didnt. They had the opportunity to win in extra time. I dont see how the extra time period that Limerick got to play is much different to getting a replay now.

I think it was very disrespectful for the GAA to make the teams play extra time, considering the magnitude of the game. It was an All-Ireland semi final, FFS. Even more so considering the impact it was going to have on the senior game following. I don't buy the argument that Limerick have less grounds to appeal because they drew the match and had extra time to win it. That situation should never had occurred if Hawkeye didn't screw up. 20 minutes to decide who wins an All-Ireland semi-final is not good enough. Had Limerick and Clare drawn in the senior, would everyone be happy with just extra time? I seriously doubt it.

marco_polo · 20-08-2013 11:13pm

Not sure what the logic behind it is but its been that way for a while, definately when Clare lost to Galway in the minor at the same stage in 2011 the last thing we wanted was extra time, as we probably should have won it in normal time. Galway ended up winning reasonably comfortably in the end.

Feel sorry for the Limerick lads but ultimately is it any different to an umpiring mistake, which is never grounds for a replay.

InchicoreDude · 20-08-2013 11:28pm

I dont understand the logic for extra time being played either. There was plenty of time for a replay. There was an announcement made before the minor match that in event of draw,there would be extra time. I was VERY surprised when I heard it.

WumBuster · 21-08-2013 12:28am

On what grounds can Limerick be awarded a replay? unless Galway offer them one i can't see any.

Fireball07 · 21-08-2013 12:38am

I agree with grenache.

Horrible to lose, particularly with something like that, but I don't think we'll get a replay. In general if the referee or umpires make a mistake, there isn't a replay..... maybe there should be if it's so obvious, but the precedent is there.

Gutted for the team though, they are a very skilful bunch... (they had chances on the day to win it, and didn't take them, I don't think they can blame Hawkeye for that).

keeponhurling · 21-08-2013 1:06am

No chance of a replay.
I don't think Limerick county board really expects a replay to be given, but they want to show their support for their own players, many of whom probably feel aggrieved.
At least they appear to be doing something. Maybe even when some time in the future a Limerick team win a game to a lucky decision and the tables are turned they can point to this, say they appealed, and Galway weren't interested.

Unfortunately the normal practice is to not offer replays.
A number of incidents including Westmeath senior hurlers, Tipp U21 hurlers, James Stephens, Meath footballers and many more show this.
If Galway make a rare sporting gesture this time and offer a replay, they know that the next time they have a team hard done by, no similar replay offers will be forthcoming.
Clare gave Offaly a replay in 1998, but in 2008 their U21s got nothing.

I do think that in some occasions the winning team should offer a replay, such as this case, but I know they won't.
GAA is not about money, it's supposed to be about pride and honour in winning, and a sense of fair play, so it's disappointing that sporting gestures are so rare.

grenache · 21-08-2013 7:28am

keeponhurling wrote: »

No chance of a replay.
I don't think Limerick county board really expects a replay to be given, but they want to show their support for their own players, many of whom probably feel aggrieved.
At least they appear to be doing something. Maybe even when some time in the future a Limerick team win a game to a lucky decision and the tables are turned they can point to this, say they appealed, and Galway weren't interested.

Unfortunately the normal practice is to not offer replays.
A number of incidents including Westmeath senior hurlers, Tipp U21 hurlers, James Stephens, Meath footballers and many more show this.
If Galway make a rare sporting gesture this time and offer a replay, they know that the next time they have a team hard done by, no similar replay offers will be forthcoming.
Clare gave Offaly a replay in 1998, but in 2008 their U21s got nothing.

I do think that in some occasions the winning team should offer a replay, such as this case, but I know they won't.
GAA is not about money, it's supposed to be about pride and honour in winning, and a sense of fair play, so it's disappointing that sporting gestures are so rare.

It wasn't Clare who decided that, it was central council who ordered a replay. Jimmy Cooney blew up after 68 minutes with Offaly on the attack and with momentum.

Keano · 21-08-2013 9:11am

grenache wrote: »

It wasn't Clare who decided that, it was central council who ordered a replay. Jimmy Cooney blew up after 68 minutes with Offaly on the attack and with momentum.

With Clare 3 points up

Back on topic - the issue was caused by human error and many matches have been lost as a result. An apology would be nice but doubt it will be forthcoming

marco_polo · 21-08-2013 9:39am

grenache wrote: »

It wasn't Clare who decided that, it was central council who ordered a replay. Jimmy Cooney blew up after 68 minutes with Offaly on the attack and with momentum.

As I recall Barry Murphy had skinned his marker in the corner and was steaming towards the Offaly goal inside the 21 when the whistle blew.

Totally over it now though. :pac:

Slow And One Sided · 21-08-2013 10:09am

Devastated for the limerick minors. You can say what you like about Galway being the better team in extra time and all that but at the end of the day, if they had counted that score, Limerick would have won the match in normal time.
When Limerick were three points up, that one point could have meant that galway needed at least 2 scores to tie up the game.

GS11 · 21-08-2013 10:33am

Slow And One Sided wrote: »

Devastated for the limerick minors. You can say what you like about Galway being the better team in extra time and all that but at the end of the day, if they had counted that score, Limerick would have won the match in normal time.
When Limerick were three points up, that one point could have meant that galway needed at least 2 scores to tie up the game.

One cannot say that for definite, given the way games flow, esp as they come to the end, Galway instead of Limerick would have been chasing that equalising score and for some reason a team can raise their game(just ike Limerick did) to get that equaliser.

I think we should give them a replay, a tainted medal is no good to anyone and sure we could do with the extra game.

Fallout from the minor hurling semi final - Galway v Limerick

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