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Urban/rural Ireland...where are we going?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    murphaph wrote: »
    Cities in Germany and pretty much everywhere else in Europe get the infrastructure they need. Why are Irish cities the exception?

    I may well be wrong here,but I suspect it's because we're......."Different"
    Foghlagh:Let's assume that there was a decision to set-up a Greater Dublin Authority, complete with an elected mayor, city representitives etc.

    In this respect it's worth recalling that the original intention was for the NTA (National Transport Authority) to be the DTA (DUBLIN Transport Authority).

    It was only after quite a deal of Machievellian subtefuge that it was altered at the 11th Hour...with the most pressing alteration being the removal of strategic planning oversight from its new remit.....therein lies the tale. German's we sure ain't !! :(


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,015 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Foghladh wrote: »
    @murphaph

    Let's assume that there was a decision to set-up a Greater Dublin Authority, complete with an elected mayor, city representitives etc.
    What level of autonomy would you like to see the authority holding? What services would you like to see handed over? What revenue streams would be assumed by the new body?
    I'd propose a reduction of income tax nationally and the consequent reduction in funding to all local authorities. I would then allow local authorities to raise taxes locally based on property ownership (ie, reverting to what we had roughly in the 70's with the domestic rates). I might also allow local authorities to raise revenues by adding up to 1% on VAT. This is a common funding model for specific projects in the US and I think it's good: you can put specific projects to public vote etc.

    More densely populated local authority areas would obviously be able to make their money go further. It goes without saying that local government would need a total overhaul for any of this to be possible: most county councils at present are incompetent in the extreme and I wouldn't trust them with the contents of my piggy bank.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    murphaph wrote: »
    I'd propose a reduction of income tax nationally and the consequent reduction in funding to all local authorities. I would then allow local authorities to raise taxes locally based on property ownership (ie, reverting to what we had roughly in the 70's with the domestic rates). I might also allow local authorities to raise revenues by adding up to 1% on VAT. This is a common funding model for specific projects in the US and I think it's good: you can put specific projects to public vote etc.

    More densely populated local authority areas would obviously be able to make their money go further. It goes without saying that local government would need a total overhaul for any of this to be possible: most county councils at present are incompetent in the extreme and I wouldn't trust them with the contents of my piggy bank.

    Given the way the thread went I never thought I'd be saying this but I agree with you.

    In addition to the overhaul of county councils we would, however, also need to overhaul the welfare system COMPLETELY, ensuring that those who are on it have enough to survive and no more......charity is great if you can afford it.

    If working married couples have to move home because of funding issues, then so should welfare recipients.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,872 ✭✭✭View


    Foghladh wrote: »
    @murphaph

    Let's assume that there was a decision to set-up a Greater Dublin Authority, complete with an elected mayor, city representitives etc.
    What level of autonomy would you like to see the authority holding? What services would you like to see handed over? What revenue streams would be assumed by the new body?

    There already is a Dublin Regional Authority with powers and functions.

    I dislike the idea because for a number of reasons:
    i) I believe there is a danger it (i.e. the proposed system) will usurp the county & city councils in the Dublin region (and I favour those bodies having much greater powers than they currently have).
    ii) It is worth remembering the reason the old Dublin county council was broken up was that it was regarded as too unwieldy and open to corruption in the planning process (i.e. Councillors from N Dublin voted through planning exemptions in S Dublin and vice versa thus enabling all the local councillors to do an "Ah, but I voted against that in my area" line with the voters and evade responsibility for dodgy planning decisions).
    iii) None of our regional, county or city councils operate a presidential system of "elected mayors" and I see no reason why it would be preferable to our existing "council with chairman" system,
    iv) I see no reason why the Dublin region - but no other region, county or city - should have an "elected mayor". This is pure "exceptionalism" and there is no reason to justify it for one of our local authorities and no other.
    v) Lastly, being pedantic - the title "Mayor" is usually for someone in charge of a City Council or equivalent. The appropriate title for a regional authority would be either "Chairman" or even "President" (i.e. Presiding Officer of the Authority) but not "Mayor".

    This to my mind is just a badly-though out lame effort at copying London while ignoring the huge disparities that exist between London and Dublin and their governmental structures.


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    Talking of joined up thinking...

    http://www.nationaltransport.ie/index.html

    What have this lot achieved in 2.5 years? A nice website?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 78,218 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    I was specifically referring to the joyriders and thieves that come from urban areas, and so in the correct context the phrasing is accurate.
    Generalise much? :)

    What of the joyriders and thieves that come from rural areas, who just happen to own the vehicle they are using for joyriding and their other crimes relate to property and taxes?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    Victor wrote: »
    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    I was specifically referring to the joyriders and thieves that come from urban areas, and so in the correct context the phrasing is accurate.
    Generalise much? :)

    What of the joyriders and thieves that come from rural areas, who just happen to own the vehicle they are using for joyriding and their other crimes relate to property and taxes?

    I've admitted that I deliberately started to generalise and twist as ridiculously as others. It was that kind of thread and at least the above statement has some basis in fact.

    Strange how you only highlighted that one.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,015 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    View wrote: »
    ii) It is worth remembering the reason the old Dublin county council was broken up was that it was regarded as too unwieldy and open to corruption in the planning process (i.e. Councillors from N Dublin voted through planning exemptions in S Dublin and vice versa thus enabling all the local councillors to do an "Ah, but I voted against that in my area" line with the voters and evade responsibility for dodgy planning decisions).
    If you believe that, you'll believe anything. Dublin County Council was really broken up by Dail Eireann because it was getting too big for its boots in the minds of most TDs and they wanted to slap it down-easiest way: break it up into 3 less effective and (even) less efficient LAs.

    Nowhere else, with one exception, would this have been the "solution" to any "problem". The trend in all other European capitals (that I can think of) has been to consolidate the administrative area of the city. I can think of ONE exception to this: LONDON in the 1980s! Margaret Thatcher was (similarly) getting fed up of the Greater London Council and abolished it, only for the essence of it to be returned to London under Labour 15 years later.

    If they wanted to eliminate the councilors voting for each others bribed projects (and that did and arguably still does happen), they could have one head to roll for obviously corrupt decisions: the Mayor's head (btw: I just used the term Mayor for simplicity, call the office what you like, but I know that County Kildare at least (and probably others) has a "Mayor".

    It should be noted that I am not for the breaking up of Ireland, but I am for more local democracy with the democratic decisions having a real effect. I am sick and tired of all taxes being collected nationally and handed to local authorities like charity grants from central government. I dare say my proposals would actually lead to better services in some rural quarters, as people everywhere would be more focused on what their taxes were actually paying for.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,025 ✭✭✭Tipp Man


    This thread has got to be the greatest load of rubbish i have ever heard

    Look Ireland is simply too small to go dividing up into 26 tax and expenditure centres.

    The USA has a land area more than 120 times that of Ireland so it makes sense that states set their own tax levels as well as cental taxes. They have dozens of cities bigger than Dublin. Their model suits them - that doesn't mean it suits Ireland

    Similarly London has a population about 8 times that of Dublin - making comparisions between the 2 is futile

    What Ireland needs is better value for money from its county councils, less waste and more productivity and more accountability.

    We do not need every county council setting its own taxes. Of course this has nothing to do with a want for more local autonomy - lets call a spade a spade - it boils down to the fact that Dubs think they are somehow bank rolling this country and a feeling deprieved of things because "money has to go down the country".

    The irony of course is that this thread was started by a person who doesn't even live in this country. Which seems to be a common trend i have noticed on boards lately - Irish people abroad (or even some non Irish) wanting to dictate how Ireland is run


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,068 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    murphaph wrote: »
    I'd propose a reduction of income tax nationally and the consequent reduction in funding to all local authorities. I would then allow local authorities to raise taxes locally based on property ownership (ie, reverting to what we had roughly in the 70's with the domestic rates). I might also allow local authorities to raise revenues by adding up to 1% on VAT. This is a common funding model for specific projects in the US and I think it's good: you can put specific projects to public vote etc.

    As Tippman points out some of that is frankly unworkable rubbish.
    We are much too small a country to have individual tax (inparticular VAT rates) for provinces never mind counties.

    Letting individual councils fiddle with tax/VAT rates is a complete joke.
    Do you know what would be involved in managing such a system at the accounting level ?
    Did you stop to think how so many people fled over the border to another jurisidiction when their VAT rates were much lower.
    Imagine a scenario where VAT rates in Galway were 5% lower than Dublin.

    Stop comparing us to the likes of the US where you have both a vastly different geographical area and population.
    They can have both federal taxes and a different state tax on goods, but that is easy when the state is already the geographical size of a small European country with the population to match.
    Some residents never even leave their state since it is such a large entity.
    Here people often commutte daily across 4 or 5 counties in a couple of hours.

    You complain about how the country and it's cities, bar Dublin, are tiny in comparison to for instance the UK, yet you come up with a lunacy plan to have individual tax rates.

    Yes I do agree about the reintroduction of the residential property rates system and let the councils set the rates and then keep the money.
    murphaph wrote: »
    More densely populated local authority areas would obviously be able to make their money go further. It goes without saying that local government would need a total overhaul for any of this to be possible: most county councils at present are incompetent in the extreme and I wouldn't trust them with the contents of my piggy bank.

    Local government needs an overhual which involves the removal of individual county and city councils.
    They are unnecessary talking shops.
    Install provincial councils and leave it at that.

    As for comments about the NRA, it was yet another unneccessary ill functioning qungoe dreamed up to give yet more jobs for the boys and girls who were connected to the ruling parties.

    We have a dept of transport which in a nation this size should surely have some function other than allowing it's ministers come up with unworkable traffic laws and regulations. :mad:
    Tipp Man wrote: »
    This thread has got to be the greatest load of rubbish i have ever heard

    Look Ireland is simply too small to go dividing up into 26 tax and expenditure centres.

    The USA has a land area more than 120 times that of Ireland so it makes sense that states set their own tax levels as well as cental taxes. They have dozens of cities bigger than Dublin. Their model suits them - that doesn't mean it suits Ireland

    Similarly London has a population about 8 times that of Dublin - making comparisions between the 2 is futile
    ...
    What Ireland needs is better value for money from its county councils, less waste and more productivity and more accountability.

    Nice to see some common sense. ;)


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  • Registered Users Posts: 19,015 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Tipp Man wrote: »
    The irony of course is that this thread was started by a person who doesn't even live in this country. Which seems to be a common trend i have noticed on boards lately - Irish people abroad (or even some non Irish) wanting to dictate how Ireland is run
    I lived in Ireland long enough (>30 years) and continue to pay taxes, so I'll make whatever comments I like about it. The Irish in Ireland haven't exactky done a great job of running the country and perhaps they should listen to people with different perspectives.

    As to 26 local authorities raising taxes blah blah. I did qualify my statement with a rather large proviso: total overhaul of local government in Ireland. This would have to include amalgamating many councils into regional authorities.

    We could also look at the Swedish model, where all incomce taxes are given back to the local authority from central government (with some authorities subsidising others, but I imagine to a much smaller degree than in Ireland). Again, not before local government is completely streamlined and reformed.

    Dublin does get a raw deal IMO. But I believe all the cities do. I think regional assemblies with a city or large town at their core would focus spending somewhere that would bring results, instead of dividing the money up so many times that it ends up doing nothing much at all.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    murphman wrote:
    Irish in Ireland haven't exactky done a great job of running the country
    Many of the Irish in Ireland aren't involved in running the country, so comments that relate to how Ahern, Drumm, Fitzpatrick et al did what they did best are insulting.

    It'd be like blaming all of the Americans for the invasion of Iraq by Bush and his round table of like-minded warmongers and oil cronies.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,015 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    Many of the Irish in Ireland aren't involved in running the country, so comments that relate to how Ahern, Drumm, Fitzpatrick et al did what they did best are insulting. It'd be like blaming all of the Americans for the invasion of Iraq by Bush and his round table of like-minded warmongers and oil cronies.
    Perhaps, but as a whole the electorate elects the government and must take responsibility for their collective choice. I blame the US electorate for electing Bush, I don't blame individual voters who may have voted for someone else.

    Anyway, it was only in response to being told (more or less) to mind my own business because I'm not physically present on the hallowed soil (despite paying income tax there and being an Irish citizen), so who should feel more insulted? ;) Other states allow their citizens to vote when abroad, but of course Ireland is different here as well, I suppose.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    murphaph wrote: »
    Perhaps, but as a whole the electorate elects the government and must take responsibility for their collective choice. I blame the US electorate for electing Bush, I don't blame individual voters who may have voted for someone else.

    Anyway, it was only in response to being told (more or less) to mind my own business because I'm not physically present on the hallowed soil (despite paying income tax there and being an Irish citizen), so who should feel more insulted? ;) Other states allow their citizens to vote when abroad, but of course Ireland is different here as well, I suppose.

    I think the fact that you want to impose your lifestyle preferences on others (while not even engaging in the parallel discussions re other choices like children & child benefit) combined with arbitrarily including rural areas that you were happy with (while dismissing other urban areas and less rural areas than you supported) had probably teed you up for a "butt out" long before the location revelation, and any reason would have done.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    Stench of jealousy from the highrises on this thread is sickening


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,218 ✭✭✭markpb


    jmayo wrote: »
    They can have both federal taxes and a different state tax on goods, but that is easy when the state is already the geographical size of a small European country with the population to match.

    You failed to mention that individual cities in America can also levy their own sales and income taxes. "Cities" can be as small as a few thousand people and they manage it just fine. You don't have to be in a situation where a state is the size of a small European country to divide up taxes.

    Also you asked us to imagine a scenario where VAT rates in Galway were 5% lower than Dublin but you never told us what you think would happen in that scenario. Personally I think people might travel from Dublin to Galway for some expensive items (cars, maybe?) but the vast majority of things (electricity, gas, grocerties, petrol) will continue to be bought where people live.

    Personally I think local/country income tax variances is the most workable, I'd much rather see that than local sales taxes but you could argue that people living in Kildare and working in Dublin would pay more of their taxes to Dublin than Kildare.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,025 ✭✭✭Tipp Man


    murphaph wrote: »
    I lived in Ireland long enough (>30 years) and continue to pay taxes, so I'll make whatever comments I like about it. The Irish in Ireland haven't exactky done a great job of running the country and perhaps they should listen to people with different perspectives.

    As to 26 local authorities raising taxes blah blah. I did qualify my statement with a rather large proviso: total overhaul of local government in Ireland. This would have to include amalgamating many councils into regional authorities.

    We could also look at the Swedish model, where all incomce taxes are given back to the local authority from central government (with some authorities subsidising others, but I imagine to a much smaller degree than in Ireland). Again, not before local government is completely streamlined and reformed.

    Dublin does get a raw deal IMO. But I believe all the cities do. I think regional assemblies with a city or large town at their core would focus spending somewhere that would bring results, instead of dividing the money up so many times that it ends up doing nothing much at all.

    i lived, worked, and payed taxes in the UK for a while as well, and still pay tax in UK - I'm not going to go telling them how they should or shouldn't run their country. Thats up to the people who are effected by it i.e. those who have to live with the consequences of those decisions

    Regarding your 26 local authorities blah blah blah - basically you don't give a damn about the rest of the country as long as the Dubs get to keep their taxes - basically that is what you are saying. This country is currently overrun with red tape and administration - and nobody is worse for this than government - so setting up more government administration is just ridiculous

    You refer to the Swedish model - what you have described is the same as the Irish model - yet you are unsure to what degree some of the Swedish local authorities are subsidising others?? Seems to be exactly the same as the Irish model - but maybe the Swedes are getting value for money from their local authorities.

    Dublin does not get a raw deal at all - you seem to forget that government policies have helped to create the city of Dublin at the expense of other areas of the country. The IFSC for example is a case of enticing companies to locate in Dublin, we could have had the IFSC in Cork for example and it could have been equally as successful. This is just 1 example.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,025 ✭✭✭Tipp Man


    murphaph wrote: »
    Perhaps, but as a whole the electorate elects the government and must take responsibility for their collective choice. I blame the US electorate for electing Bush, I don't blame individual voters who may have voted for someone else.

    Anyway, it was only in response to being told (more or less) to mind my own business because I'm not physically present on the hallowed soil (despite paying income tax there and being an Irish citizen), so who should feel more insulted? ;) Other states allow their citizens to vote when abroad, but of course Ireland is different here as well, I suppose.

    If we don't allow people in Ireland not to vote then I'm glad we don't. Its easy vote for a policy when you are in Germany, UK or USA knowing that it has absolutely zero impact on your life. Much harder to make that choice when it directly impacts on your life

    just because other countries allow it doesn't mean it better


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 ✭✭✭BluntGuy


    Tipp Man wrote: »
    The USA has a land area more than 120 times that of Ireland so it makes sense that states set their own tax levels as well as cental taxes. They have dozens of cities bigger than Dublin. Their model suits them - that doesn't mean it suits Ireland

    As markpb mentioned, small towns have the power to effect taxation. Surely it would be a boon for people who feel disengaged with the democratic process to have some real say in how their money is spent in their local area, rather than waiting for the euro to come from the central slush fund?
    What Ireland needs is better value for money from its county councils, less waste and more productivity and more accountability.

    More efficient local authorities and more autonomy aren't mutually exclusive propositions.
    We do not need every county council setting its own taxes. Of course this has nothing to do with a want for more local autonomy - lets call a spade a spade - it boils down to the fact that Dubs think they are somehow bank rolling this country and a feeling deprieved of things because "money has to go down the country".

    What exactly is wrong with the idea that cities should be allowed to spend a greater share than present of the tax revenue their citizens generate, to provide the decent urban services that they require?
    The irony of course is that this thread was started by a person who doesn't even live in this country. Which seems to be a common trend i have noticed on boards lately - Irish people abroad (or even some non Irish) wanting to dictate how Ireland is run

    I don't see why the fact that someone may be abroad or horror of horrors not be "Irish" devalues their opinion. Why this got thumbed up is beyond me.
    i lived, worked, and payed taxes in the UK for a while as well, and still pay tax in UK - I'm not going to go telling them how they should or shouldn't run their country. Thats up to the people who are effected by it i.e. those who have to live with the consequences of those decisions

    Because you're not living in the country, you have no right to have an opinion on how the country should be run? It sounds like you're trying to justify your indignation more than anything else, because this doesn't make one bit of sense. Indeed often an external view can be superior when it comes to taking a cold, hard logical look at the situation rather than emotional one.
    Dublin does not get a raw deal at all - you seem to forget that government policies have helped to create the city of Dublin at the expense of other areas of the country. The IFSC for example is a case of enticing companies to locate in Dublin, we could have had the IFSC in Cork for example and it could have been equally as successful. This is just 1 example.

    Government policies have often been actively doing the opposite. Only recently, the IDA were trying to get Paypal to set up in Limerick, and they elected to choose Dundalk, because of its proximity to Belfast and Dublin. On Cork, specifically relating to the IFSC, there is a proposal to construct an "Atlantic Quarter" in the Docklands that might provide competition to the IFSC. Whether or not that will ever get built though is another thing. Don't forget the IFSC wasn't built by the state, it was only allowed for by the state. I don't see how the government could've said "we like you're proposal but you have to build it in Cork".


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,025 ✭✭✭Tipp Man


    BluntGuy wrote: »
    As markpb mentioned, small towns have the power to effect taxation. Surely it would be a boon for people who feel disengaged with the democratic process to have some real say in how their money is spent in their local area, rather than waiting for the euro to come from the central slush fund?

    Why exactly would that be a boon? Sounds like a receipe for even more corruption
    BluntGuy wrote: »
    More efficient local authorities and more autonomy aren't mutually exclusive propositions.

    No but i would rather see how efficient and accountable councils operate in the current system before giving them tax creating powers. Right around the country councils have increased rates for the last few years and when back up and justification has been sought on this increases they have been met with silence - and you want to give these cowboys more power??

    BluntGuy wrote: »
    What exactly is wrong with the idea that cities should be allowed to spend a greater share than present of the tax revenue their citizens generate, to provide the decent urban services that they require?

    Will these same cities be willing to fully compensate the rural areas for the resources that they take from the rural areas?? Such as water, energy etc. Because currently they are not.

    BluntGuy wrote: »
    I don't see why the fact that someone may be abroad or horror of horrors not be "Irish" devalues their opinion. Why this got thumbed up is beyond me.



    Because you're not living in the country, you have no right to have an opinion on how the country should be run? It sounds like you're trying to justify your indignation more than anything else, because this doesn't make one bit of sense. Indeed often an external view can be superior when it comes to taking a cold, hard logical look at the situation rather than emotional one.
    As said previously it is easy to come up with hairbrained ideas when you are NOT the person who has to foot the bill or deal with the consequences of theses ideas. If the OP had the idea that everybody should be paying 95% tax to clear our budget deficit would you be so willing to entertain the idea??

    BluntGuy wrote: »
    Government policies have often been actively doing the opposite. Only recently, the IDA were trying to get Paypal to set up in Limerick, and they elected to choose Dundalk, because of its proximity to Belfast and Dublin. On Cork, specifically relating to the IFSC, there is a proposal to construct an "Atlantic Quarter" in the Docklands that might provide competition to the IFSC. Whether or not that will ever get built though is another thing. Don't forget the IFSC wasn't built by the state, it was only allowed for by the state. I don't see how the government could've said "we like you're proposal but you have to build it in Cork".

    As far as i was aware Paypal was given a choice of locations and chose Drogheda over Limerick, that is their choice

    RE the IFSC. The physical buildings might not have been built by government but the policy to only charge 10% corp tax to companies in the IFSC was a clear policy choice to get companies to locate in Dublin, more specifically in the IFSC. That is obviously going to attract people to Dublin, people in general who are on very good salaries. This has the double effect of increasing personal and corp tax in the Dublin region. So is a clear example of government policy directly increasing the tax take of the Dublin area. (note i think the IFSC was a good idea and a success and have no problem with it)


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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,218 ✭✭✭markpb


    Tipp Man wrote: »
    Why exactly would that be a boon? Sounds like a receipe for even more corruption

    Care to explain that?
    Will these same cities be willing to fully compensate the rural areas for the resources that they take from the rural areas?? Such as water, energy etc. Because currently they are not.

    Production of renewable energy (which currently only happens in rural areas) is *subsided* by the government. Food prices are given a floor by CAP, this is a subsidy paid for by EU taxpayers.
    the policy to only charge 10% corp tax to companies in the IFSC was a clear policy choice to get companies to locate in Dublin

    You mean like EU BMW grants for the border region, a move which was organised specifically by the government to ensure they continued getting grants when Dublin and the rest of the country were not. What about Udaras na Gaeltachta grants for setting up in Gaeltacht regions? Or the continued funding of Galway and Kerry airports and PSO subsidies for flights to Donegal and Kerry.

    Places outside Dublin get plenty of support for the government, people just don't see it or don't want to see it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,025 ✭✭✭Tipp Man


    markpb wrote: »
    Care to explain that?



    Production of renewable energy (which currently only happens in rural areas) is *subsided* by the government. Food prices are given a floor by CAP, this is a subsidy paid for by EU taxpayers.



    You mean like EU BMW grants for the border region, a move which was organised specifically by the government to ensure they continued getting grants when Dublin and the rest of the country were not. What about Udaras na Gaeltachta grants for setting up in Gaeltacht regions? Or the continued funding of Galway and Kerry airports and PSO subsidies for flights to Donegal and Kerry.

    Places outside Dublin get plenty of support for the government, people just don't see it or don't want to see it.

    First off I never said that places outside Dublin didn't get support - I am merely highlighting that Dublin also gets plenty of support which Dublin people just don't see or don't want to see

    Secondly the link between CAP and food prices floors never really existed and any link that was there was most certainly broken at the start of the last decade when de-coupling came in to place. Irish food companies are now competing on the world market - not on the Dublin or Ireland market

    No doubt renewable energy is being subsidised - but you only have to look at your next car fill of fuel to see that it won't be very long before these energies start to become independantly viable.

    On your first question - we are trying to move this country away from parish pump politics. Giving more power to local authorities and councils INCREASES parish pump politics not decreases it


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 267 ✭✭OssianSmyth


    32 boroughs in London, each with its own council and mayor and power to set, collect and spend residential council tax. Boroughs are similar in population size to Dublin local authorities.

    20 Arrondissements in central Paris, each with its own council and mayor

    Taxes in the US are levied at federal, state, county and city/town level. Property tax is typically set, collected and spent by the county/city

    One view is that Irish LA's should centralise and share services such as HR. Another view is that each LA should run its own shop with local money and compete with each other to provide the best services at the lowest tax cost. This is the idea in the UK - I don't know if it works.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,015 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Tipp Man wrote: »
    On your first question - we are trying to move this country away from parish pump politics. Giving more power to local authorities and councils INCREASES parish pump politics not decreases it
    You're getting confused here. Parish pump politics is when extremely local issues cloud peoples' decision making process with respect to issues if national importance. It's precisely because our councils are so weak that people go running off to their TD for x, y and z, rather than to their council, who should be the ones providing local services and so on.

    Although, as I've said at least 3 times (though you don't appear to be listenning), we need to reform loacl government completely, before giving them any more responsibility than they have, because local government is badly broken in Ireland. Though I'm sure whatever I'm saying is safe to ignore as I don't live there at the moment.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,068 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    markpb wrote: »
    You failed to mention that individual cities in America can also levy their own sales and income taxes. "Cities" can be as small as a few thousand people and they manage it just fine. You don't have to be in a situation where a state is the size of a small European country to divide up taxes.

    I would love to see how this affects companies, who are already fed up with the amount of bureaucracy we have in this country, when they have to set up different VAT rates for products in their shops throughout the country.
    If anything we need less differences in the country and somepeople want to add another layer.
    We are a small country with 4.5 million of a populaiton but somepeople want us to behave as if we have hundreds of millions and a land mass the size of the USA.

    BTW what is the smallest city/town that sets it's own unique sales tax ?
    I would just like to know that.
    markpb wrote: »
    Also you asked us to imagine a scenario where VAT rates in Galway were 5% lower than Dublin but you never told us what you think would happen in that scenario. Personally I think people might travel from Dublin to Galway for some expensive items (cars, maybe?) but the vast majority of things (electricity, gas, grocerties, petrol) will continue to be bought where people live.

    Doh. Yes I will travel 130 miles to buy my milk or other groceriers.
    But watch the electrical shops shut in one area and the same ones boom in another if the VAT rate differed by 5%.
    Same with cars, etc.

    Imagine how some pubs and offlicenses would do.
    For argument sake lets say Laois had 20% Vat and Carlow had 25% VAT.
    Now Carlow town is actually on the border. Lets see how that works.
    This is a cack eyed idea for a country our size. :rolleyes:
    markpb wrote: »
    Personally I think local/country income tax variances is the most workable, I'd much rather see that than local sales taxes but you could argue that people living in Kildare and working in Dublin would pay more of their taxes to Dublin than Kildare.

    Would it be based on where someone lives or where they are employed ?

    Again a managerial nightmare.
    Remember how much of a problem all the variations in pay scales in the dept of health HSE helped scupper the PPARS project.
    Tipp Man wrote: »
    Why exactly would that be a boon? Sounds like a receipe for even more corruption

    No but i would rather see how efficient and accountable councils operate in the current system before giving them tax creating powers. Right around the country councils have increased rates for the last few years and when back up and justification has been sought on this increases they have been met with silence - and you want to give these cowboys more power??

    Ah but shure they will be overhauled and everything will be hunky dory. :rolleyes:
    Tipp Man wrote: »
    Will these same cities be willing to fully compensate the rural areas for the resources that they take from the rural areas?? Such as water, energy etc. Because currently they are not.

    Water is a big one.
    If people in Dublin county had to rely on their own county for water they wouldn't be doing too well.
    If they decided to screw Wicklow and Kildare, all those counties would have to do is turn off or divert the flow.
    32 boroughs in London, each with its own council and mayor and power to set, collect and spend residential council tax. Boroughs are similar in population size to Dublin local authorities.

    Ehhh they don't set income tax or VAT do they ?
    No they set a residential tax or rates.
    20 Arrondissements in central Paris, each with its own council and mayor

    Every fecking village in France has a major.
    And I mean a collection of 10 or 12 houses with not even a shop or pub.
    Taxes in the US are levied at federal, state, county and city/town level. Property tax is typically set, collected and spent by the county/city

    Is it primarily property tax that varies at local level ?
    What is the smallest entity in the US with it's own sales tax is what I would like to know ?
    murphaph wrote: »
    You're getting confused here. Parish pump politics is when extremely local issues cloud peoples' decision making process with respect to issues if national importance. It's precisely because our councils are so weak that people go running off to their TD for x, y and z, rather than to their council, who should be the ones providing local services and so on.

    Although, as I've said at least 3 times (though you don't appear to be listenning), we need to reform loacl government completely, before giving them any more responsibility than they have, because local government is badly broken in Ireland. Though I'm sure whatever I'm saying is safe to ignore as I don't live there at the moment.

    I think there are too many mickey mouse councils ala the town councils.
    As for local county councils the number of members should be chopped.

    I do agree that local property/residential taxes/charges like the old rates should be set locally, and then used locally.
    But I do not want local councils having the ability to set their own sales tax i.e. VAT or even worse income tax levels.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,798 ✭✭✭goose2005


    Tipp Man wrote: »
    This thread has got to be the greatest load of rubbish i have ever heard

    Look Ireland is simply too small to go dividing up into 26 tax and expenditure centres.
    Most people suggested maybe 8 or 9 regions.
    The USA has a land area more than 120 times that of Ireland so it makes sense that states set their own tax levels as well as cental taxes. They have dozens of cities bigger than Dublin. Their model suits them - that doesn't mean it suits Ireland
    But virtually every advanced country has directly elected mayors and other officials, and local authorities with genuine power. The only reason Ireland doesn't is because we inherited a British system and couldn't be arsed changing anything.
    Similarly London has a population about 8 times that of Dublin - making comparisions between the 2 is futile
    No-one did. Look at Oslo, with a population similar to Dublin - 6 metro lines, 6 tram lines and 8 commuter rail lines. Dublin has 2 tram lines and 1 commuter line (DART).
    We do not need every county council setting its own taxes. Of course this has nothing to do with a want for more local autonomy - lets call a spade a spade - it boils down to the fact that Dubs think they are somehow bank rolling this country and a feeling deprieved of things because "money has to go down the country".
    Taxes and economic activity in Dublin do subsidise the rest of the country. This is a fact.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,081 ✭✭✭fricatus


    goose2005 wrote: »
    Taxes and economic activity in Dublin do subsidise the rest of the country. This is a fact.

    That's a pretty big statement. Can you provide a source?

    Bear in mind that the bulk of civil service and semi-state employment, which is well paid, is in Dublin and is paid for by all citizens. Don't forget the four universities in the Dublin area (compared to three in the rest of the country), or the subsidy provided by the 10% corporation tax rate in the IFSC. Also remember to include the cost of the LUAS and the Port Tunnel in your calculations...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,725 ✭✭✭charlemont


    Tipp Man wrote: »
    This thread has got to be the greatest load of rubbish i have ever heard

    Look Ireland is simply too small to go dividing up into 26 tax and expenditure centres.

    The USA has a land area more than 120 times that of Ireland so it makes sense that states set their own tax levels as well as cental taxes. They have dozens of cities bigger than Dublin. Their model suits them - that doesn't mean it suits Ireland

    Similarly London has a population about 8 times that of Dublin - making comparisions between the 2 is futile

    What Ireland needs is better value for money from its county councils, less waste and more productivity and more accountability.

    We do not need every county council setting its own taxes. Of course this has nothing to do with a want for more local autonomy - lets call a spade a spade - it boils down to the fact that Dubs think they are somehow bank rolling this country and a feeling deprieved of things because "money has to go down the country".

    The irony of course is that this thread was started by a person who doesn't even live in this country. Which seems to be a common trend i have noticed on boards lately - Irish people abroad (or even some non Irish) wanting to dictate how Ireland is run

    So what's you take on the merging of the two Tipperary councils then ??
    And what do you think should happen to the 6 town councils and 1 borough council in Tipperary ?

    Interesting how both Cahir and Roscrea have no councils.

    I personally think the two councils should remain separate but have the Town councils scrapped and merge them into their respective county councils, And the Borough council should remain but stay under the wing of South Tipp council.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,015 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    fricatus wrote: »
    That's a pretty big statement. Can you provide a source?

    Bear in mind that the bulk of civil service and semi-state employment, which is well paid, is in Dublin and is paid for by all citizens. Don't forget the four universities in the Dublin area (compared to three in the rest of the country), or the subsidy provided by the 10% corporation tax rate in the IFSC. Also remember to include the cost of the LUAS and the Port Tunnel in your calculations...
    ...not forgetting that Dublin City Council gets no rates from these state owned buildings which take up large swathes of the most expensive (and therefore rates lucrative) land in the country.

    Many buildings aren't even utilised fullly as a result of decentralisation.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 343 ✭✭chris2008x


    charlemont wrote: »
    So what's you take on the merging of the two Tipperary councils then ??
    And what do you think should happen to the 6 town councils and 1 borough council in Tipperary ?

    Interesting how both Cahir and Roscrea have no councils.

    I personally think the two councils should remain separate but have the Town councils scrapped and merge them into their respective county councils, And the Borough council should remain but stay under the wing of South Tipp council.

    Getting rid of urban councils is a bad idea. The town and borough councils are important for every town in Ireland for money to be allocated to each area and spent locally in the town. Lets use Tipperary as an example. How would the soon to be Tipperary council manage to absorb six town councils and one borough council exactly? Or control planning in these areas, promote these areas. The town councils need more powers if anything and some other powers taken away.

    I don't like quangos nobody does but set up one and take the social housing responsibilities off the councils this would save millions. Not all money spent on housing is provided by the Department of the Environment. Some of this money is raised through parking charges in the case of Templemore TC who only introduced parking charges in 2008.

    Allow town councils to set their own rates. With more powers like that these councils can be very productive. Getting rid of these town/borough councils would only make this worst by disadvantaging towns like Tipperary town, Cashel, Templemore etc cause all of the money will be sucked in by the larger towns Thurles, Nenagh and Clonmel .


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