Running Diesel cars on Vegatable Oil?

Hobbes · 29-08-2005 9:46pm

air wrote:

http://www.revenue.ie/services/tax_info/vatrate/T01249.htm
Looks good to me

I think that refers to buying it in the shop to use in cooking.

Not sure what the law is in Ireland but in the UK they started stamping down on people who were not paying petrol tax and using vegtable oil. Some chip shop chain store got caught a few years back running all its transport vans on the stuff.

Takeshi_Kovacs · 02-09-2005 9:49pm

well from what i've heard and seen on the net, the government announced tax breaks on biofuels since start of august... i'll try and find a link to verify this..

well just saw the news there where they say that petrol will go up to around 1.30 euros and diesel up to around 1.27, so the idea of using veggie oil is really looking like a smart idea... now if could only get some methanol...

xonencentral · 03-09-2005 3:15pm

The tax breaks were only for specific research projects, some well publicised, I think the government were just trying to get them off their backs.

Takeshi_Kovacs · 03-09-2005 10:02pm

well i don't care if they don't like me putting an enironmentally sound fuel into my car , i pay enough taxes as it stands to a gobsh!ticus government, that is only good on frickin wasting a lot of money while at the same time giving themselves a wage increase, for *a hard job well done*

do you know, it wouldn't be so bad if the money was well spent on the same level of quailty infrastructure that countries such as Germany, Denmark, France, e.t.c. have had for decades

*goes to see who my local green party member is...*

gregos · 06-09-2005 1:00am

I've been running my Pajero for a few days now on 50/50 diesel / veg oil and it seems to be going fine, although I did have to take a deep breath before pouring all that stuff into the tank. I'll definitely be continuing with this project. I propose to write to Revenue asking for guidance regarding excise duty, and if the normal form continues, I should probably get no help at all. That's fine. I'l keep a copy of my letter on the dash, in the unlikely event that I'm ever stopped.

Takeshi_Kovacs · 06-09-2005 11:10pm

gregos wrote:

I've been running my Pajero for a few days now on 50/50 diesel / veg oil and it seems to be going fine, although I did have to take a deep breath before pouring all that stuff into the tank. I'll definitely be continuing with this project. I propose to write to Revenue asking for guidance regarding excise duty, and if the normal form continues, I should probably get no help at all. That's fine. I'l keep a copy of my letter on the dash, in the unlikely event that I'm ever stopped.

please let us know how you get on with the veg oil and the taxman...

vibe666 · 08-09-2005 8:41am

how much would that work out at per litre using 50/50?

does it make it worthwhile?

could you go 25/75 without causing problems?

Sarsfield · 08-09-2005 4:32pm

Didn't CIE have a couple of hybrids on the road a few years ago?

From todays IT

"CIE chairman John Lynch has ordered an investigation into the use of biofuels and hybrid electric/diesel engines in a bid to cut the company's soaring fuel bills.

CIE currently spends Eur 34 million a year on diesel and although the company buys its diesel 18 months in advance, costs in 2005 have risen 40 per cent above 2004 levels.

A preliminary report prepared for Mr Lynch has warned that next year prices are expected to be double what the company paid in 2003.

Now engineers at Dublin Bus have been asked to look at the possibility of using biofuel or hybrid engines across the three State transport companies, as a cheaper alternative to diesel.

In the past the CIE group's favoured position in being exempt from most of the State's excise duty has made biofuel an unrealistic proposition.

But with rising prices, a range of alternative fuels is now being examined.

The move would also improve Ireland's greenhouse gas emissions and help achieve a current EU directive to secure 2 per cent of our fuel from alternative renewable sources.

Engineers will also look at the prospects for future developments in the areas of biomass. Biomass is organic material such as decomposing waste which releases gases which can be captured to provide energy.

The most immediate option being examined by CIE is biodiesel, a blend of diesel and vegetable oil which could be used in diesel engines without modification. Biodiesel is widely used around the world.

It is used in American army vehicles and by public bus companies in France. Biodiesel is more environmentally friendly than regular diesel in that when the crops are growing they consume carbon and the oil has fewer emissions than regular diesel. It also reduces engine wear, is biodegradable and renewable.

Another option being investigated is pure vegetable oil which would require only minor modification to the engines of the vehicles. Vegetable oil is used to power a bus fleet in Gratz, Austria.

Hybrid vehicles would require a new fleet according to CIE and this would be a longer-term option for the company."

Takeshi_Kovacs · 08-09-2005 8:11pm

vibe666 wrote:

how much would that work out at per litre using 50/50?

does it make it worthwhile?

could you go 25/75 without causing problems?

well assuming you're buying diesel at around say 1.08 euro (most garages near me seem to be averaging that price although they are changing by the day), and you're buying Veggie oil for around 63 cent a litre (Lidl price) then on a 50 litre fuel tank fill,
it would cost (at 50/50 mix) 25*1.08 = 27 for the diesel, and 25*0.63 = 15.75
Therefore full tank would cost 27 + 15.75 = 42.75 euro for a 50 litre tank of 50/50 mix

This is as opposed to 54 Euro for a pure diesel tank fill. A saving of around 11 euro..

Of course if you are using recovered and cleaned waste oil from your local chippy (collected for free assuming..), then you are only paying for the diesel and time and effort put into to cleaning the wvo. Now you are looking at only around 27 to 30 euro for a full tank of 50/50 fuel mix....

If i am wrong in the math or guesstimation, please correct me..

dowlingm · 09-09-2005 5:16pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodiesel

Toronto and Halifax both use biodiesel in their buses, although the level of biodiesel varies according to temperature, in winter it goes down to 5% as in -30C conditions gelling is a big problem. The Halifax BD is derived from local fish oil processing. The biodiesel vendor there also sells it as heating oil.

Toronto is buying some hybrid buses, however a normal bus costs C$500k, a hybrid costs C$750k so only part of the latest order is for hybrids.

Hellrazer · 10-09-2005 12:23pm

Most diesels will run fine on 100% veggie oil.Only problem Id foresee would be a fuel filter change more often than recommended and the problem of it freezing in winter--then again us old school people remember people heating their fuel tanks on their diesel cars in winter to get the diesel liquid again.

And at 65-77c a litre Im seriously considering buying a "cheap" diesel(and ridding myself of the company car) and running it on a few cheapo 5 litre LIDL specials of vegetable oil.

For what its worth apparently Mercedes/Volkswagens are least likely to have problems with vegetable oil.

Its a pity some budding entrepreneur doesnt come up with the idea of buying up all the chippies used oil and filtering it of particles and selling it on to consumers at a greatly reduced price.

JNive · 10-09-2005 2:49pm

Just a few questions

What sort of injector pumps etc are on a 1998 Merc E300 Turbo-Diesel, and is it able to be upgraded using one of those Elsbett DIY-Kits.

Has anyone converted a similar car, or received a qoute, and how much was it.
What sort of price would you be looking at if you were to get your local mechanic/garage to install one of these.

If using PPO i assume it would be smelling so much of MacDonalds either, if it does, then oh well, its all in the name of the environment anyway lol.

Any update on the price of 1,000 litre batches of PPO from eilishoils and who delivers such batches, and any updated prices for that, its 62c + VAT currently, but what is the situation with collecting or delivering, it says €80 for a container, is this correct, meaning outside of delivery, that would be €700, and also, for future refills, would you need to drive there with your container and fill-up, or can they come out and fill your container, or, deliver in a new container, and take old container back.

Keeks · 10-09-2005 5:05pm

GreenHell wrote:

You make a petrol out of some wheat crop as well. Its being tested over in wexford I believe.

Petrol from wheat?

Any more information on this as I'd like to know more about this? Are you sure its not a form of bio-diesel thats being tested?

dowlingm · 11-09-2005 4:23am

that's oilseed rape (known in these parts as canola).

vorbis · 12-09-2005 10:20am

There is some research into making butanol from corn though. Butanol is close enough to petrol properties to be used directly in an unmodified petrol engine. One thing regarding the straight vegetable oil, its more likely to gell at higher temps than biodiesel would.

Takeshi_Kovacs · 12-09-2005 8:25pm

vorbis wrote:

There is some research into making butanol from corn though. Butanol is close enough to petrol properties to be used directly in an unmodified petrol engine. One thing regarding the straight vegetable oil, its more likely to gell at higher temps than biodiesel would.

hmmmm interesting, i've just been reading up on 'butanol' and it seems that it has a higher energy content per gallon (104,000 BTu/gallon) as opposed to ethanol (between 75,700 BTU and 84,000 BTU depending on burning temperature), which makes it more comparable to petrol (125,000 BTU/gallon)
This would achieve higher mpg than ethanol and somewhat close to Petrol. I think one to look out for in the future.. until then i think i'll try experimenting with distilling 200 proof ethanol (denatured of course), and burning it in the petrol engine hopefully..

JNive wrote:

If using PPO i assume it would be smelling so much of MacDonalds either, if it does, then oh well, its all in the name of the environment anyway lol.

Any update on the price of 1,000 litre batches of PPO from eilishoils and who delivers such batches, and any updated prices for that, its 62c + VAT currently, but what is the situation with collecting or delivering, it says €80 for a container, is this correct, meaning outside of delivery, that would be €700, and also, for future refills, would you need to drive there with your container and fill-up, or can they come out and fill your container, or, deliver in a new container, and take old container back.

hmmm i would have hoped that they could do a better deal than 62c before VAT, considering you are buying in bulk and the fact that Lidl sells 1-2 litre bottles of cooking oil for 63c last time i checked (although it would be awkward going for 20+ bottles every week, maybe they sell 5 litre bottles as well?)
which reminds me, i know a fella who wholesales cooking oil to the catering business, i must ask him would he sell me a few gallons and for how much)

JNive · 13-09-2005 10:42am

and on that note, if you convert with an Elsbett DIY kit for PPO/SVO will Your Lidl cooking oil work fine just as good as PPO if you wanted to change things around a little lol. ( hehe, bring that emergency bottle of Vegatble Oil in the boot lol )

mike65 · 14-09-2005 2:34pm

If large numbers of ppl started buying cooking oil in bulk presumably it would'nt take long for ther government to notice and to slap a tax on it (I presume its zero rated)?.

Mike.

CJhaughey · 14-09-2005 3:24pm

how can you tax food?
I thought all food was zero rated?

mike65 · 14-09-2005 3:43pm

Food is zero rated but it could be said that cooking oil is dual purpose! Just wait to the Dept of Finance get on the case.

Mike.

bat boy · 21-09-2005 11:55am

Hey gregos, how is your car running now after the 2 weeks? Really interested to find out. Did you start with a 50/50 mix or did you build up to it? I've read quite a few sites with people saying how they just simply switched from diesel to half diesel half veg oil, without doing anything to the engine, and I find it hard to believe its that simple. I really hope it is. I hope its working well for you, good on ya for giving it a go.

Wibbs · 21-09-2005 12:09pm

Takeshi_Kovacs wrote:

hmmmm interesting, i've just been reading up on 'butanol' and it seems that it has a higher energy content per gallon (104,000 BTu/gallon) as opposed to ethanol (between 75,700 BTU and 84,000 BTU depending on burning temperature), which makes it more comparable to petrol (125,000 BTU/gallon)
This would achieve higher mpg than ethanol and somewhat close to Petrol. I think one to look out for in the future.. until then i think i'll try experimenting with distilling 200 proof ethanol (denatured of course), and burning it in the petrol engine hopefully..

The only problem I could see with ethanol type fuels are the emissions. While on paper they're ok, have you ever stood behind a car using it? It stings the eyes out of you. A city full of them might cause problems. Just a thought.

Re xonencentral's claim that Mr. Deisel was assasinated, I understood he comitted suicide by jumping from a ship(he suffered badly from depression and was running out of money at the time). But then I was never one for conspiracies, myself. Maybe there's something in it. Never heard about his idea to help African farmers either. Interesting though, wouldn't surprise me looking at the personality of the man. I will agree he was a genius though.

Takeshi_Kovacs · 25-09-2005 10:43pm

Wibbs wrote:

The only problem I could see with ethanol type fuels are the emissions. While on paper they're ok, have you ever stood behind a car using it? It stings the eyes out of you. A city full of them might cause problems. Just a thought.

can't say i have, although i'll have a look into it...

on a side note, i'm gonna go experimenting with blending veggie oil and diesel, possibly work up to 50/50 ratio ( unheated) .. i've been doing a fair bit of reading up, and it seems to work alright, once it is not too cold, and that the oil is well filtered, before adding to diesel, .
also vigorously mixing the blend is a good idea too..

as well i think i will add a small bit of acetone to the mix, (and to the petrol in the mothers car) as this, supposedly reduces the surface tension of diesel and petrol, enabling better combustion, and increasing milage..
some 'blenders', have said that it all so reduces viscosity of the veggie oil, but i can't comment on that until i get myself (or make) a hydrometer..

on a side note, i was talking to fella recently who said he had bought a few gallons of chipper oil mix (biodiesel ?) and was running it in his van, but he didn't know if it was veggie oil/diesel mix, or if it was biodiesel... but when he started his van, the exhaust really did smell like a bbq..

Ev · 02-10-2005 10:03pm

hi folks, just wondering if you know if a Saab 93 2.2 Diesel can be converted to use vegetable oil???

CJhaughey · 02-10-2005 10:23pm

Go to the Elsbett site and have a look.
They say as long as it isn't a Lucas/CAV pump you should be fine.
The vegoil suppliers here eilish oils and others have a link to Elsbett on their pages.

Ev · 03-10-2005 9:46pm

Thanks Cj, couldnt get a lot of information on that site other that the basic conversation details.

Cuauhtemoc · 04-10-2005 8:57am

From todays indo...
I don't know about the pioneering, from whats on this thread i think its been done before. Nice to see it in a commercial sense i suppose.

MOTORISTS will soon be able to eat their chips and run the family car using the same cooking oil, writes Treacy Hogan.

An Irish company announced yesterday it has pioneered a process of turning ordinary home cooking oil into bio-diesel suitable for use in cars and trucks that use diesel fuel.

Greyhound Recycling & Recovery says it hopes to initially produce 100,000 litres of bio-diesel a month from deep-fat fryer oil. Motorists will save €1 a gallon by using the alternative green fuel, it claims.

The company says it can take any used cooking oil and convert it into a bio-diesel that conforms to international standards set down for diesel quality. The breakthrough came following extensive research in partnership with Queens University Belfast.

Brian Buckley, company director, said they were able to recycle any used cooking oil, from chippers, supermarkets, hotels, even from consumers deep fat fryers and convert this to bio-diesel.

The company had been exporting oil to Germany for recycling but recent investment means they can recover this used oil at home in their recyclingrecycle oil at their facilities in Clondalkin, Limerick and Trim. The company projects it will be producing 100,000 litres of bio-diesel within six months.

The fuel is being tested in Greyhound's fleet of trucks and in their plant generators. As soon as an uninterrupted supply is guaranteed it being made available to the public.

Yoda · 06-10-2005 5:11am

I'm visiting Portland, Oregon now and biodiesel is certainly coming online. Just passed a station today that had a sign up "Bio Here Soon".

The whole thing about making one's own biodiesel is all very interesting, but I'd just want to put in an order to some crowd in Waterford or Cork (or Belfast?) and have it delivered. Any sign of that happening?

flasher · 03-08-2006 9:28am

how do we clean the used chippy oil and what additives or chems do we need mix for home heating and agri use

vibe666 · 04-08-2006 11:52pm

Cuauhtemoc wrote:

From todays indo...
I don't know about the pioneering, from whats on this thread i think its been done before. Nice to see it in a commercial sense i suppose.

for christs sake you'd think they'd invented biodeiesel. :rolleyes:

iirc between 2 and 5% of all diesel in france is biodiesel (by that i mean if you fill up with diesel in france 2-5% of what's in your tank is biodiesel).

read up on a couple of google sites and you'll see that people all over the world have been making biodiesel from waste coking oil in their sheds for years.

go the indo! woohoo!

muppets.

Running Diesel cars on Vegatable Oil?

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