Carrion Crow in Ireland Common?

MB Lacey · 15-09-2010 8:20pm #1

I was looking at the Irish Species list on birdguides.com and they've listed Carrion Crow as a 'Common' Irish species and the Hooded Crow as a 'Local' Irish species.

I see hooded crows everywhere but consider myself lucky if I see the one hybrid Carrion crow which hangs out at Bull Island in Dublin.

Does anyone know what constitutes a bird being considered Common and Local..

and how is a Carrion Crow in Ireland 'Common'?

Here's the link to their species list http://www.birdguides.com/species/default.asp?list=2&menu=menu_species

Feargal as Luimneach · 15-09-2010 9:04pm

MB Lacey wrote: »

I was looking at the Irish Species list on birdguides.com and they've listed Carrion Crow as a 'Common' Irish species and the Hooded Crow as a 'Local' Irish species.

I see hooded crows everywhere but consider myself lucky if I see the one hybrid Carrion crow which hangs out at Bull Island in Dublin.

Does anyone know what constitutes a bird being considered Common and Local..

and how is a Carrion Crow in Ireland 'Local'?

Here's the link to their species list http://www.birdguides.com/species/default.asp?list=2&menu=menu_species

A good few errors in that link. Corn Bunting listed as common when it's extinct:(. Hooded crow is common while carrion crow occurs in very small numbers (usually passage). Turtle dove is listed as common

but it occurs only on passage in small numbers. Fulmar/Gannet listed as local but would be common. Barnacle goose listed as common while brent listed as local when Brent is much more common than Barncles. Pink-footed geese listed as common but occur only in small numbers.

MB Lacey · 15-09-2010 9:23pm

Thankyou Feargal - that's a pretty poor bit of research by them then.

It's easy enough to find out that Carrion Crows are quite scarce over here - so to list them as common is pretty bad.
And then there's the other errors you mention.

Looking forward to Eric Dempseys new Irish field guide book in October!

LostCovey · 15-09-2010 10:20pm

MB Lacey wrote: »

Thankyou Feargal - that's a pretty poor bit of research by them then.

It's easy enough to find out that Carrion Crows are quite scarce over here - so to list them as common is pretty bad.
And then there's the other errors you mention.

Looking forward to Eric Dempseys new Irish field guide book in October!

Hi MB Lacey,

It is beyond poor research - it is lazy and incompetent.

I have had a go at selecting all the blatantly wrong entries - I am sure there are more. A lot of these errors could be explained by them just copying and pasting a UK list & comments. However some editing has been done (e.g. Tawny Owl has been deleted).

<snip>

Something I never get about the internet - why do people do things like this? This obsessive need to provide lots and lots of content and fill up pages with tables and sod the quality. This isn't information, it is misinformation. That page would be far better if it were blank.

Anyway I found 59 blunders - can anyone beat this?

LostCovey

Avocet Recurvirostra avosetta Local A
Bee-eater, European Merops apiaster Scarce A
Bittern Botaurus stellaris Local A
Brambling Fringilla montifringilla Common A
Bustard, Great Otis tarda Scarce B
Buzzard, Common Buteo buteo Common A
Buzzard, Honey Pernis apivorus Scarce A
Crake, Spotted Porzana porzana Scarce A
Crow, Carrion Corvus corone Common A
Crow, Hooded Corvus cornix Local A
Curlew, Stone Burhinus oedicnemus Scarce A
Dotterel Charadrius morinellus Local A
Dove, Stock Columba oenas Common A
Dove, Turtle Streptopelia turtur Common A
Duck, Ruddy Oxyura jamaicensis Common C1C2
Firecrest Regulus ignicapilla Local A
Flycatcher, Pied Ficedula hypoleuca Local A
Flycatcher, Red-breasted Ficedula parva Scarce A
Fulmar Fulmarus glacialis Local A
Gadwall Anas strepera Common A
Gannet Morus bassanus Local A
Garganey Anas querquedula Local A
Goosander Mergus merganser Common A
Goose, Barnacle Branta leucopsis Common AC1
Goose, Brent Branta bernicla Local A
Goose, Greylag Anser anser Common AC1
Goose, Pink-footed Anser brachyrhynchus Common A
Goose, Taiga Bean Anser fabalis fabalis Local A
Goshawk Accipiter gentilis Local A
Harrier, Marsh Circus aeruginosus Local A
Harrier, Montagu's Circus pygargus Scarce A
Hawfinch Coccothraustes coccothraustes Local A
Kingfisher, Common Alcedo atthis Common A
Kite, Black Milvus migrans Scarce A
Lark, Wood Lullula arborea Local A
Nightingale Luscinia megarhynchos Local A
Nightjar Caprimulgus europaeus Local A
Oriole, Golden Oriolus oriolus Scarce A
Osprey Pandion haliaetus Local A
Ouzel, Ring Turdus torquatus Local A
Owl, Little Athene noctua Common AC2
Plover, Little Ringed Charadrius dubius Common A
Pochard, Red-crested Netta rufina Common A
Redstart, Common Phoenicurus phoenicurus Common A
Sandpiper, Curlew Calidris ferruginea Local A
Sandpiper, Green Tringa ochropus Common A
Tern, Black Chlidonias niger Local A
Tit, Bearded Panurus biarmicus Local A
Tit, Marsh Poecile palustris Common A
Wagtail, Yellow Motacilla flava Common A
Warbler, Reed Acrocephalus scirpaceus Common A
Whimbrel Numenius phaeopus Local A
Whinchat Saxicola rubetra Common A
Whitethroat, Lesser Sylvia curruca Common A
Woodpecker, Great Spotted Dendrocopos major Common A
Woodpecker, Green Picus viridis Common B
Wryneck Jynx torquilla Scarce A
Yellowhammer Emberiza citrinella Common A

Mothman · 16-09-2010 9:03am

Has anyone contacted/emailed Birdguides to point out the errors?

LostCovey · 16-09-2010 9:22am

Mothman wrote: »

Has anyone contacted/emailed Birdguides to point out the errors?

Good thinking Mothman.

We COULD contact BirdWatch Ireland who would know the definitive status of every one of these species, and whose current chairman John Cromie, from Co. Donegal, could contact BirdGuides.

http://www.birdwatchireland.ie/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=Qsg20zccSwU=&tabid=72

Or we COULD contact the founder and technical director of BirdGuides Ltd, one John Cromie from Co. Donegal.

http://www.birdguides.com/aboutus/default.asp

Oh, wait........

LostCovey

Mothman · 16-09-2010 9:51am

Point made LC but I don't see John Cromie beinging mentioned as founder..though I now see the word directer:) It appears to me that he is responsible for the software rather than the content.

I don't see it as being helpful what I consider throwing the blame at one person.

I agree with your general sentiment and in particular

This isn't information, it is misinformation. That page would be far better if it were blank.

Lets give them a chance to sort it out.

Anywhere else one can see an Irish list online, and if so any with status?

MB Lacey · 16-09-2010 10:03am

That's pretty bad isn't it?

Imagine they have the Corn Bunting listed when as Ferg says it's extinct!

Lostcovey - you came up with a huge list of mistakes there aswell...

Huge shame because I bought Collins field guide a few weeks ago and was going to use that birdguides list to cross reference which birds in the collins book can be found in Ireland.

It's a crime that the birdguides list is so inaccurate - especially when LC has pointed out that someone involved with Birdwatch Ireland is also involved with the the birdguides website.

Unless someone else (more knowledgable) would be up for it, I could just forward this link to birdguides and birdwatch Ireland and let them see the errors Lostcovey listed??

Does anyone know somewhere I could get an Accurate, up to date, Irish species list ??

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 16-09-2010 4:49pm

Drop them a line here: contact@birdguides.com

and see if they respond. I have done so just now.

MB Lacey · 16-09-2010 4:52pm

If they haven't responded to you in the next few days, I'll email them aswell.

tertials · 16-09-2010 8:32pm

I noticed that the title of the column referred to does not say "Status in Ireland" but "Birdguides Rarity Level". As this is a rare bird news service aimed primarily at British birders I presume that the rarity level is in a UK context to help those British Birders who may filter their news based on this rarity level.

For example Bitterns in the UK might be classed as scarce or local (UK -75 males breeding and 50-150 wintering per RSPB) while in Ireland it would be classed as rare.

Having two levels of rarity level, one for for Ireland and one for the UK is perhaps problematic insofar as the vast majority of birders subscribing would be British. However this could be made clearer if indeed this is the case!

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 16-09-2010 9:14pm

Good reply but doesn't hold water as British birders would use this kind of information when planning a birding visit to another area such as Ireland.

LostCovey · 16-09-2010 10:09pm

Mothman wrote: »

Point made LC but I don't see John Cromie beinging mentioned as founder..though I now see the word directer:) It appears to me that he is responsible for the software rather than the content.

I don't see it as being helpful what I consider throwing the blame at one person.

Well just to back up what I said (but I have no axe to grind with John Cromie), his BirdWatch Ireland profile (linked above) says:

John Cromie
John Cromie, who lives in Donegal, has served on the board for five years and is the current chairman. He runs a software consulting business, Skylark Associates. As a founder and technical director of BirdGuides, a
leading UK website for birders, he can combine a lifelong passion for birds and nature with his business interests.

More luck to him if he can make a living from something we do as a hobby. Like professional golf, it probably takes some of the fun out of it.

My ONLY point was that BirdGuides is a company with significant Irish component, and the Irish list is disappointing, no more than that.

LostCovey

LostCovey · 16-09-2010 10:12pm

MB Lacey wrote: »

That's pretty bad isn't it?

Does anyone know somewhere I could get an Accurate, up to date, Irish species list ??

Well the definitive list is the IRBC list
http://www.irbc.ie/topbar/categories.php

but that doesn't show relative abundance/rarity, just documented occurrences (ie a bird which appeared once in a wild state is listed alongside Jackdaw).

LC

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 17-09-2010 8:03am

Fair play to Birdguides in that they replied promptly.

Although the list is a specific Irish list, the status for each species as I thought, is a generically British as far as rarity status goes. It simply isn't be feasible to have two lots of species lists with 2 lots of status assigned, one for mainland UK sightings and one for Northern Ireland/ Ireland- an extreme of this is some thing like Blue Tit in Shetland, which would almost be a mega, but in the grand scheme of things it's a very common bird.

The status although generic is important when we come to send out rare bird news as customers define their settings by the status of birds.

I can't imagine British birders be too happy at receiving Turtle Dove and Corn Bunting reports when they expect to receive the latest rarity news, although I'd imagine Irish birders would appreciate this.

Hope this goes someway to explain the predicament.

Still not good enough in my opinion.

MB Lacey · 17-09-2010 9:41am

Christine Scary Standby wrote: »

It simply isn't be feasible to have two lots of species lists with 2 lots of status assigned, one for mainland UK sightings and one for Northern Ireland/ Ireland

The status although generic is important when we come to send out rare bird news as customers define their settings by the status of birds.

I can't imagine British birders be too happy at receiving Turtle Dove and Corn Bunting reports when they expect to receive the latest rarity news, although I'd imagine Irish birders would appreciate this.

It doesn't take THAT much work to update a seperate Irish Species list?
Lostcovey did it in about 10 minutes?????

All they need to do is go along the status column and with their knowledge I'd assume it's quite easy to change a 'common' to 'local'.

Thanks for the link to the IRBC list LC, I'll cross reference my collins guide using that info instead.

Judgement Day · 17-09-2010 10:02am

I use http://www.irishbirding.com/birds/web a lot and find a useful source for most up to date information.

MB Lacey · 17-09-2010 10:55am

Yes, that's a great site to use.

Having just gone through the IRBC list - they also have the Corn Bunting listed - with no mention that its now extinct.

tertials · 17-09-2010 11:47am

The IRBC list does not mention a status for any bird. It is just a list of birds that were ever recorded in Ireland. It doesn't show a 'status' for any species including Corn Bunting, it just puts each in a "Category".

Corn Bunting is Category A, i.e. "Species that have been recorded in an apparently natural state in Ireland at least once since 1st January 1950".

MB Lacey · 17-09-2010 12:17pm

tertials wrote: »

The IRBC list does not mention a status for any bird. It is just a list of birds that were ever recorded in Ireland. It doesn't show a 'status' for any species including Corn Bunting, it just puts each in a "Category".

Yes, I saw that - I mentioned it to show that the IRBC list couldn't really be used either to see which birds are scarce, local, common etc in Ireland.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 17-09-2010 12:20pm

MB Lacey wrote: »

It doesn't take THAT much work to update a seperate Irish Species list?
Lostcovey did it in about 10 minutes?????

All they need to do... .

Just to be clear. You quoted back at me the reply THEY sent me. Not my comment. I dislike the Birdguides site and actually avoid it if I can. Contact them and complain (as I did) rather than shoot the messenger. Actually, come to think of it - it would be much better to make your point to them rather than here, as they will not be reading this and we all already agree on the matter.

MB Lacey · 17-09-2010 1:08pm

Christine Scary Standby wrote: »

Just to be clear. You quoted back at me the reply THEY sent me. Not my comment. I dislike the Birdguides site and actually avoid it if I can. Contact them and complain (as I did) rather than shoot the messenger. Actually, come to think of it - it would be much better to make your point to them rather than here, as they will not be reading this and we all already agree on the matter.

:eek:
Hey, hey - cool your boots.
I'm not in anyway attacking you and it's a shame you jump to that conclusion.

If you read back - I was quoting the reply you got back from Birdguides and I was making a point that it wouldn't take that much effort on their behalf to update their categories on their Irish species list.

I suggested twice that I'd contact Birdguides myself but gave the chance to other more knowledgeable people to contact them if they wished.

You emailed them (thankyou) and I said that if you didn't hear back from them I'd email them..

I will email them again with my opinions, but as it was up for discussion on this Discussion board I made a comment here.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 17-09-2010 1:29pm

No problem and at no time was any footware warmed.
It's just that the delivery of your post quoted only their reply as under my name and your comments did not indicate agreement with me but disagreeemnt with the quote purtaining to come from me. That's all. Just clarity on the issue. No big deal.

MB Lacey · 17-09-2010 2:15pm

Well, I've emailed one of the guys directly pointing out how helpful it would be to have an accurate Irish Rarity level for the Irish Species list.

Seems nonsensical to me to have a list of Irish birds with how rare they are in Britain next to them?!

I'll let you know when I receive a reply and when they change the rarity status level

LostCovey · 17-09-2010 6:44pm

MB Lacey wrote: »

Well, I've emailed one of the guys directly pointing out how helpful it would be to have an accurate Irish Rarity level for the Irish Species list.

Seems nonsensical to me to have a list of Irish birds with how rare they are in Britain next to them?!

I'll let you know when I receive a reply and when they change the rarity status level

Well don't hold your breath MB Lacey. In birding circles that site is often referred to as 'DudeGuides", and that's not because they are cool..............

LC

Carrion Crow in Ireland Common?

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