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Ryanair bid for Aer Lingus

124

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 6,315 ✭✭✭ballooba


    lxflyer wrote: »
    It's your opinion that they provide a mediocre service.

    Clearly from the passenger numbers an awful lot of people including myself disagree with you.
    Plenty of mediocre products/services enjoy a loyal custom. Especially when people have never known quality.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,315 ✭✭✭ballooba


    Aer Lingus is civilised compared to Ryanair and not really that much more expensive if you include onward travel costs.
    My most recent Aer Lingus experience was one of near death, so I wouldn't call it civilised. Relaxed is about the kindest word I could use and that's not necessarily a compliment.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,350 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    ballooba wrote: »
    lxflyer wrote: »
    It's your opinion that they provide a mediocre service.

    Clearly from the passenger numbers an awful lot of people including myself disagree with you.
    Plenty of mediocre products/services enjoy a loyal custom. Especially when people have never known quality.

    You pay for the privilege of quality.

    I saw that as a person who travels on some of the best airlines in the world with work.

    It is great when the job is paying for it, but wen I travel on my own money I usually fly Ryanair, Aerlingus or similar low cost carriers.

    The reality is Ireland is just too small a market to support a large full service carrier like Virgin, BA, Lufthansa, etc.

    Aerlingus is just about pitched just right for the Irish market. Cheap but decent level of service that connects into most of the major hubs and carriers.

    The reality is the vast majority if the Irish public don't travel enough or far enough to wonder about frequent flyer program's or business class.

    I've come to the conclusion that you simply want to destroy an Irish Airline, thousands of Irish jobs and force people to pay higher fares for purely selfish reasons, in the mistaken belief that if Aeroingus is gone, a full service carrier like Virgin, BA, etc. will fill its place.

    Sorry but that just won't happen, we don't have enough business travel for that in Ireland.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,315 ✭✭✭ballooba


    bk wrote: »
    Aerlingus is just about pitched just right for the Irish market. Cheap but decent level of service that connects into most of the major hubs and carriers.
    i.e. mediocre.

    When I lived in Australia there were four airlines: Virgin, Qantas, Jetstar and Tiger. I never travelled in the latter and avoided the middle two whenever possible. A differentiated product does not have to be high cost.

    If Ireland is too small a market, then why is Ryanair so interested and why are Middle Eastern airlines here at all?


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,483 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    ballooba wrote: »
    Plenty of mediocre products/services enjoy a loyal custom. Especially when people have never known quality.

    I'd appreciate it if you do not make assumptions about myself or indeed others. I happen to be a frequent flyer and I am well acquainted with most airlines service levels.

    I don't see EI as mediocre. I see the product offered as perfectly acceptable for the market it is serving.

    Load factors are up which means plenty of other people agree with that assessment.

    Having an opinion is one thing, but you are presenting yours as facts which frankly I would fundamentally disagree with. The traffic statistics would tend to back me up on this.


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  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,077 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    ballooba wrote: »
    If Ireland is too small a market, then why is Ryanair so interested and why are Middle Eastern airlines here at all?

    Ryanair are FROM here. They have been reducing the number of flights they operate to/from Ireland significantly for a number of years.

    If you're referring to the Aer Lingus hard product as "mediocre", dare I ask what term you have for the Ryanair one? Seeing as its markedly inferior in every imaginable away.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,859 ✭✭✭bmaxi


    This is the type of quality product Ryanair provide.
    http://www.thejournal.ie/ryanair-refuses-apologise-tohumiliated-woman-colostomy-bag-527936-Jul2012/
    Somehow I could never see this happen with Aer Lingus.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    bmaxi wrote: »
    This is the type of quality product Ryanair provide.
    http://www.thejournal.ie/ryanair-refuses-apologise-tohumiliated-woman-colostomy-bag-527936-Jul2012/
    Somehow I could never see this happen with Aer Lingus.
    Shoddy alright, and I don't think I could ever see it happening with Aer Lingus either.

    But for most of us who have no special requirements Ryanair are the cheapest 90% of the time.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,630 ✭✭✭SeanW


    ballooba wrote: »
    It's funny that you mention irrationality, because those arguments are ridiculous. Fares will not double, that is baseless scare mongering. Even if fares rise marginally, this for better service would be welcome.
    You are joking right? Ryanair's entire business model revolves around treating customers like crap.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    When they and GO tried the other airports Ryanair offered €0.00 seats long enough to kill the competition
    Plenty of airlines have pockets deep enough to offer €0.00 seats long enough to establish a foot hold surely?


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  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,537 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    n97 mini wrote: »
    Plenty of airlines have pockets deep enough to offer €0.00 seats long enough to establish a foot hold surely?
    You mean like Easyjet ?



    Ryanair made €500 million last year
    Average fares rose 16 per cent and traffic increased by 5 per cent, leading to a 25 per cent increase in profits to €503 million, the airline said today.
    ...
    The company’s fuel bill rose to over €360 million as oil prices increased by 16 per cent over the past year. In a statement, the airline said that high oil prices had forced competitors to increase fares and fuel surcharges.

    Note - Fares have gone UP in a recession
    The profit is larger than the fuel costs


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,350 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    You mean like Easyjet ?

    But note Easyjet rarely competes head on with Ryanair. If they start trying to get into a price war with Ryanair, that profit will evaporate very quickly. No airline will take on Ryanair in their own back yard. Just not going to happen.

    And it still won't give ballooba want he claims he wants. Easyjet is just another low cost carrier, with no frequent flyer program, etc.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,568 ✭✭✭Chinasea


    What naive nonsense I am reading.

    I worked for an American phone company who set up shop in Ireland once the whole deregulation happened in communications. We were gobsmacked to find that when we pitched 50% cheaper rates to the Irish customers they were very reluctant or indeed not willing to switch as they wanted to remain blindly faithful to their robbing Irish model.

    In a way the loyalty was admirable, but when I see posts like the many on here it smacks of brainwashed dumbness.

    Aer blo**y Lingus have been robbing the Irish blind for too many years. A plane is plane for f's sake and no pilot be it Aer Lingus or Ryan Air will get in a plane if they believe it unfit to fly. I see no difference whatsoever with my relatively short journey to European destinations on either carrier.
    I believe the media have had it in for Ryanair since they began. Funny that a government backed Airline gets such preferential media treatment.

    Keep going guys, as you will soon have shot the goose that lays the golden egg and you will be stranded on this godforsaken Island of the 1970’s with flights that only Boybands can afford.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,350 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Chinasea you seem to have no idea what you are talking about. No one is saying anything about safety concerns. Both Ryanair and Aerlingus are some of the safest airlines in Europe with some of the youngest airline fleets in Europe.

    Our concern is that if Ryanair buy Aerlingus, they will end up with close to 80% of all flights out of Ireland and will therefore become a defacto monopoly and raise prices. Simple as that.

    Personally whenever I fly I check both Ryanair and Aerlingus. I often actually find Aerlingus cheaper and therefore fly with them, if not I fly Ryanair.

    And what is all this rubbish about killing the goose? Ryanair is the largest airline in Europe. Even if they are blocked from buying Aerlingus, this won't change one bit. It will just mean that Irish people will continue to have a choice between two strong competitors to get off this island, as you put it.

    As for Easyjet filling the Aerlingus void, take a look at this map of Easyjets destinations:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Easyjetdestinations.png

    Note how the Republic of Ireland is one of the few countries in Europe they don't fly too. But that wasn't always the case, they use to fly to Cork, Shannon and Knock. That is until Ryanair ran them out of town.

    Easyjest won't be coming back for a repeat of that price war.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,077 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Chinasea wrote: »
    Aer blo**y Lingus have been robbing the Irish blind for too many years

    If there's blind loyalty here, its you to Ryanair.

    Aer Lingus are very often cheaper than Ryanair for the same route/date combination. Ryanair haven't been a particularly cheap airline for some time.

    Ryanair only sell as many seats as they do as people assume they are *always* cheaper and don't check anyone else. Irish people have a surreal Stockholm Syndrome towards Ryanair.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,859 ✭✭✭bmaxi


    Chinasea wrote: »

    Keep going guys, as you will soon have shot the goose that lays the golden egg and you will be stranded on this godforsaken Island of the 1970’s with flights that only Boybands can afford.

    Very possibly, and unfortunately for the travelling public those flights will be provided by Ryanair.


  • Registered Users Posts: 674 ✭✭✭etchyed


    There are a depressing number of really quite thick people posting in this thread, who seem to have attached a personality to Ryanair and become emotionally attached to it, rather than realising that it's a business, which will always have as its number one priority the maximisation of profit, as any business should.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,537 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    bk wrote: »
    But note Easyjet rarely competes head on with Ryanair. If they start trying to get into a price war with Ryanair, that profit will evaporate very quickly. No airline will take on Ryanair in their own back yard. Just not going to happen.

    And it still won't give ballooba want he claims he wants. Easyjet is just another low cost carrier, with no frequent flyer program, etc.
    Go and Easyjet did try to compete with Ryanair on their own turf.

    Who else has ?



    The key point is the high cost airlines will charge more than the low cost ones. If prices rise at the bottom of the market , they will rise at the top. London - Dublin.


    To book a Ryanair flight to London today it's €247 + extras , there is one cheap flight on August 10 (25.99+ ) but they are hoping you'll be one of the 10% or so who don't fly (an extra cost of booking in advance) Beyond this there are flights for 17+

    I've always said Ryanair break even on the basics and the extras are pure profit.

    They have and will defend this right to gouge the punters.


    The high cost airlines don't really cares since they are going after a different market segment , people who will pay extra not to use Ryanair.


    Yes there may be an overlap between Ryanair and the Flag Carriers, but it's not that big and it's not worth a real fares war (yes there will be ads on both sides but nothing serious)


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    MYOB wrote: »
    If there's blind loyalty here, its you to Ryanair.
    I didn't get that at all from his post. Anti Aer Lingus, yes, and like me he has a long memory. Aer Lingus shafted the Irish public for the first, I dunno, 50 years of their existence?


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    MYOB wrote: »
    Aer Lingus are very often cheaper than Ryanair for the same route/date combination. Ryanair haven't been a particularly cheap airline for some time.
    Do a couple of random comparisons using Skyscanner.ie without actually searching for instances where either airlines is cheaper.

    1. Tomorrow DUB-LGW
    Lufthansa €100 via Paris
    Ryanair €117
    Aer Lingus €188

    2. 22nd Sept DUB-LGW
    Ryanair €21
    Aer Lingus €41

    3. Tomorrow DUB-EDI
    Aer Lingus €83
    Ryanair €124

    4. 22nd Sept DUB-EDI
    Ryanair €21
    Aer Lingus €46

    5. 22nd Sept DUB-VNO
    Ryanair €61
    Aer Lingus €102

    6. 23 July DUB-VNO (no flights tomorrow)
    Air Baltic €192 (via VIX)
    Ryanair €281
    Aer Lingus €301

    Six flights, short notice and two months notice.
    EI cheapest on one flight.
    FR cheapest on three flights.
    FR cheaper than EI on five flights.
    Price misalignment on one flight by FR (#6)
    Price misalignment on two flights by EI (#6, #1)
    Total cost if flown with FR: €604
    Total cost if flown with EI: €761 (+26%)

    My loyalty is to my wallet, and I would have flown FR for 1, 2, 4 and 5. IE for 3 and Air Baltic for 6.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,859 ✭✭✭bmaxi


    n97 mini wrote: »
    I didn't get that at all from his post. Anti Aer Lingus, yes, and like me he has a long memory. Aer Lingus shafted the Irish public for the first, I dunno, 50 years of their existence?


    Yet now you want to grant the same opportunity to Ryanair. I don't know what grounds you have to assume that removing competition will mean Ryanair will keep prices low. Do you think that removing Aldi, Dunne's, Lidl, Supervalu etc, would mean Tesco would still be a cheap place to shop? Doesn't make any business sense whatsoever. There are no moral values when it comes to share values.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,077 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    n97 mini wrote: »
    I didn't get that at all from his post. Anti Aer Lingus, yes, and like me he has a long memory. Aer Lingus shafted the Irish public for the first, I dunno, 50 years of their existence?

    You should read his post more clearly "believe the media has it in for Ryanair" for starters.

    One of many people in this country who believe the Sainted Mick can do no wrong.

    Do those SkyScanner prices include Ryanair's multitude of unavoidable extras? Or take in to account that its generally cheaper to take a bag on any other airline but them?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,153 ✭✭✭bkehoe


    MYOB wrote: »
    Do those SkyScanner prices include Ryanair's multitude of unavoidable extras? Or take in to account that its generally cheaper to take a bag on any other airline but them?

    And the fact that Aer Lingus allow one to have more hand luggage - a bag such as a laptop bag in addition to your main carryon.

    Back to the topic of Aer Lingus being sold, I and most other people in the industry would be of the strong opinion that Ryanair holding such a large amount of Aer Lingus shares at the moment is actually a deterrent to another large airline group launching a takeover offer. Once they're forced to sell their shareholding it should become clearer what future path Aer Lingus takes. Personally I think that if in 10 years they're still independent then that's not a problem. EI very successfully serves the market it's targeted at and provides a quality service for its passengers. The growth opportunities are quite limited for an airline that doesn't have growth plans like an airline like Ryanair...if they're making money then let them continue.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,220 ✭✭✭jackofalltrades


    n97 mini wrote: »
    Plenty of airlines have pockets deep enough to offer €0.00 seats long enough to establish a foot hold surely?

    Easyjet would be the airline with one of the closest operating costs and they got their fingers burnt to the extent that they pulled out of Ireland. You've mentioned Lufthansa and Air France-KLM, both of which have a higher cost base, lower % revenue from ancillaries, don't have a base in Ireland and wouldn't have the same brand recognition with the Irish public.

    And on top of all that, these airlines would be risking Ryanair competiting head to head with them in their own countries.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    MYOB wrote: »
    You should read his post more clearly "believe the media has it in for Ryanair" for starters.
    Saw that, still don't get any love for Ryanair.
    MYOB wrote: »
    Do those SkyScanner prices include Ryanair's multitude of unavoidable extras?
    Yes, all charges, including EI's €6 charge that you can't avoid even if you get a sad excuse for a debit card (like FR's).


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    bmaxi wrote: »
    Yet now you want to grant the same opportunity to Ryanair. I don't know what grounds you have to assume that removing competition will mean Ryanair will keep prices low.
    Hmm, you might need to read my posts again. I have no grá for EI for historical reasons, but I will still fly with them if they are the cheapest.

    I am a firm believer in competition (almost fanatical), but I don't believe that competition has to be in the form of EI. As I said earlier, I don't expect EI to exist much in 10 years, even if Etihad or Lufthansa buys them.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,077 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    n97 mini wrote: »

    Yes, all charges, including EI's €6 charge that you can't avoid even if you get a sad excuse for a debit card (like FR's).

    Visa Electron for EI. No idea who here issues them, but its a bit more open than a Ryanair-issued card only as FR either have or are going to require.


  • Registered Users Posts: 78,218 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    etchyed wrote: »
    There are a depressing number of really quite thick people posting in this thread
    No need for comments like this.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    MYOB wrote: »
    Visa Electron for EI. No idea who here issues them, but its a bit more open than a Ryanair-issued card only as FR either have or are going to require.

    Let's be fair here and not blinded by hatred.

    FR have a useless debit card that almost no-one would want, but none the less it exists and you can avoid the €6 charge with it.

    EI require a Visa Electron which is not issued in Ireland, and therefore the €6 is totally unavoidable.

    Scores for Irish customer service on this particular issue:
    FR 1 out of 100
    EI 0 out of 100


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,859 ✭✭✭bmaxi


    n97 mini wrote: »
    Hmm, you might need to read my posts again. I have no grá for EI for historical reasons, but I will still fly with them if they are the cheapest.

    I am a firm believer in competition (almost fanatical), but I don't believe that competition has to be in the form of EI. As I said earlier, I don't expect EI to exist much in 10 years, even if Etihad or Lufthansa buys them.

    You come across as a supporter of Ryanair. It's hard to say what plans Etihad would have for AL if they were to buy it but whether it makes good business sense to spend upwards of €1bn just to secure Heathrow slots is debatable. I doubt if they would discontinue European flights and any competition to Ryanair is good news for the Irish travelling public.
    The credit/debit card issue is a matter for regulation, personally I think it is extortion no matter who is doing it. I seem to remember Ryanair having a problem with the EU in this regard, can't recall the outcome but it obviously wasn't sufficient.


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