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Hit a brick wall! Agricultural land & planning?

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  • 10-02-2014 2:42pm
    #1
    Hillybilly4
    Registered Users Posts: 609 ✭✭✭


    Hi. We're considering the purchase of 6 acres of rural agricultural land in Co. Kerry. The land is fenced, gated and has an access track off the main road. There is a barn with mains water, solar panels and a wind turbine, already semi-kitted out for basic living. There are willows and an orchard, raised veg beds, beehives etc. as well as a fenced 4 acre pasture.

    We would like to be able to develop a productive smallholding on the land and make it our permanent home. But we do not want to build a house! What we would like to be able to do is live permanently in the barn (after some work to make it more comfy lol) and/or site a mobile home there. Our energy needs are already catered for, as is our water supply. We'd install a composting toilet and grey water would be recycled.

    We've asked Kerry CoCo what permission(s) we would need to apply for in order to be able to legally accomplish this and how likely (on a scale of 1 to 10!) it would be for such permission to be granted. But they have replied that they cannot enter into pre-planning discussions with anyone other than the owner because this may impact on the price of a property. They advised us to engage an independent planning agent. When asked if they could enter into pre-planning discussions with a planning agent, they said no. So not sure what the point of that would be!

    Is this normal? How is one supposed to assess a site pre-purchase if the planning office won't talk to you or your agent?

    Head. Brick wall.
    Thanks in advance!


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    #2
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 40,981 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    sounds a bit mad to be honest.

    Many pre planning discussions are with prospective purchasers.

    the whole idea of a pre planing discussion is NOT to give you a '1 to 10 scale' of the likelihood of permission, but rather to inform you of the obstacles and issues you face during an application. its basically explaining the development plan to you in a concise manner.

    perhaps you asked the wrong questions initially. alll planning is speculative.

    All i can advise here is:
    1. contact the local councillor and get them to organise the meeting
    2. go in with a letter from the landowner giving you permission to make an application on their land


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    #3
    BryanF
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,140 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF


    this is common down weist

    you get the landowner to write a letter stating 'you intend to purchase this land subject to planning' etc


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    #4
    BryanF
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,140 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF


    Hillybilly4 wrote: »
    There is a barn with mains water, solar panels and a wind turbine, already semi-kitted out for basic living.
    with planning, for its current use?

    > we do not want to build a house!
    > What we would like to be able to do is live permanently in the barn
    > and/or site a mobile home there.
    > We'd install a composting toilet and grey water would be recycled.
    you'll have fun with the council on these points and fun with the building control authority re barn


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    #5
    Hillybilly4
    Registered Users Posts: 609 ✭✭✭Hillybilly4


    Yes, already anticipated the "fun" bits lol.
    Thanks for the advice guys - a letter from the landowner it is then!


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    #6
    Hillybilly4
    Registered Users Posts: 609 ✭✭✭Hillybilly4


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    perhaps you asked the wrong questions initially. alll planning is speculative.
    Thanks.
    I have now also tried re-phrasing my questions ;0) until such time as I can get a letter from t'landowner.


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    #7
    Hillybilly4
    Registered Users Posts: 609 ✭✭✭Hillybilly4


    As advised, I tried rephrasing my questions - made it clear I was talking about a hypothetical site, in general terms - and managed to extract an answer at least re mobile home siting: "Planning permission would be required, however planning permission is usually refused for such proposals, as a mobile home is not considered an acceptable form of development to be sited on land on a permanent basis."
    Are there not people who do live permanently in mobile homes then? How do they get planning permission? Or do they?!


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    #8
    BryanF
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,140 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF


    Hillybilly4 wrote: »
    Are there not people who do live permanently in mobile homes then? How do they get planning permission? Or do they?!
    we will not be discussing hypothetical illegalities

    take you own advice:
    Hillybilly4 wrote: »
    "Planning permission would be required,


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    #9
    Slig
    Registered Users Posts: 1,550 ✭✭✭Slig


    The barn will essentially be a change of use from agricultural building to dwelling and will require planning permission as such. A mobile home is a temporary structure, if you ever tried living in one for a prolonged period of time you would see why!!!
    If you intend living on the site then any structure you build/convert and your occupation of it will have an impact on the site, environment and community which is the reason we have a planning system.


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    #10
    galwayhillbilly
    Registered Users Posts: 120 ✭✭galwayhillbilly


    Instead of a mobile home, Try for what the council call a 'demountable' which is a prefabricated building that they give usually to older people in rural areas, whose houses are not fit for human habitation and who qualify for the housing list. These obviously had to have planning permission. Also you could look at a timber building of similar proportions to a mobile home, the build quality is probably better than a garden shed but they are much cheaper than a house, google it there should be plenty of examples. Check the county development plan to see if there are any issues with timber-clad houses.
    The other thing to look into is; a lot of the old barns in Ireland were originally old cottages that were converted to barns when farms got amalgamated, or if the owners built a new house. If it is an old 'A roof' stone or mass concrete building check for evidence of previous habitation like fireplaces and chimneys, hearth stones, little cubby holes for storing items, internal dividing walls(walls for animals wouldn't usually go above shoulder height) windows barns wouldn't have many windows, evidence of thatching under a tin roof, Paint on the walls, plaster on the walls. Check the old census for the area, see if you can get your hands on the old six inch maps to see if a house is marked in the area or there may be other sources as well but you wouldn't want to be going back too far, Ask around locally, ask the owner, this may give you an angle from a planning point of view. If you do find any evidence of a previous house when you approach the planners be sure to state that you wish to refurbish a disused house as opposed to converting a barn

    If you have a genuine housing need, they may find it harder to object to you setting up affordable housing, so maybe apply to go on the housing list.


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    #11
    vinnie13
    Registered Users Posts: 494 ✭✭vinnie13


    If the building has been used for living linger than 7years no planning is required


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    #12
    BryanF
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,140 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF


    vinnie13 wrote: »
    If the building has been used for living linger than 7years no planning is required
    that's complete rubbish.

    provide us with the legislation that states this, please?


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    #13
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 40,981 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    vinnie13 wrote: »
    If the building has been used for living linger than 7years no planning is required

    :D

    100% incorrect


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    #14
    Skatedude
    Registered Users Posts: 2,674 ✭✭✭Skatedude


    vinnie13 wrote: »
    If the building has been used for living linger than 7years no planning is required

    I've been living in a converted garage for over 20 years, I still needed full planing permission to build a small extension onto it


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    #15
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 40,981 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Skatedude wrote: »
    I've been living in a converted garage for over 20 years, I still needed full planing permission to build a small extension onto it

    not a good example because some garage conversions are exempt


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    #16
    vinnie13
    Registered Users Posts: 494 ✭✭vinnie13


    BryanF wrote: »
    that's complete rubbish.

    provide us with the legislation that states this, please?

    i think you will find this is true as your local cc will confirm its statute barred


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    #17
    vinnie13
    Registered Users Posts: 494 ✭✭vinnie13


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    :D

    100% incorrect


    i beg to differ


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    #18
    TheHappyChappy
    Registered Users Posts: 305 ✭✭TheHappyChappy


    I'd be really interested to know on what basis people think this is incorrect?


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    #19
    Poor Uncle Tom
    Registered Users Posts: 14,544 ✭✭✭✭Poor Uncle Tom


    vinnie13 wrote: »
    If the building has been used for living linger than 7years no planning is required
    BryanF wrote: »
    that's complete rubbish.
    vinnie13 wrote: »
    i think you will find this is true as your local cc will confirm its statute barred
    sydthebeat wrote: »
    :D

    100% incorrect
    vinnie13 wrote: »
    i beg to differ
    TheHappyChappy wrote: »
    I'd be really interested to know on what basis people think this is incorrect?

    You see vinnie13 is very mixed up and is getting confused between the requirement for Planning Permission and the scope of Planning Enforcement and to make matters worse vinnie13 even has the time period wrong.


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    #20
    vinnie13
    Registered Users Posts: 494 ✭✭vinnie13


    Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »
    You see vinnie13 is very mixed up and is getting confused between the requirement for Planning Permission and the scope of Planning Enforcement and to make matters worse vinnie13 even has the time period wrong.

    ok master of all,please do fully fill us in on your ignorant comment or is it just more hot air in here


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    #21
    BryanF
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,140 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF


    vinnie13 wrote: »
    ok master of all,please do fully fill us in on your ignorant comment or is it just more hot air in here
    Vinnie, tom has explained and corrected you. There is no need for you to get nasty
    have a week off to think about this


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    #22
    kingchess
    Registered Users Posts: 795 ✭✭✭kingchess


    are you guys saying you can"t build without planning permission(which is the the law of the land), but if you build anyway and get away with it for 7 years the law can not do anything??a case of it is better to ask for forgiveness rather than ask for permission


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    #23
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 40,981 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    kingchess wrote: »
    are you guys saying you can"t build without planning permission(which is the the law of the land), but if you build anyway and get away with it for 7 years the law can not do anything??a case of it is better to ask for forgiveness rather than ask for permission

    have you not read all the posts saying that vinne was wrong?

    If you build something unauthorised... it always remains unauthorised until it actually becomes authorised.

    Having an unauthorised development on site causes huge difficulties.
    The asset cannot be mortgaged against.
    No valid planning applications can be made on a site with unauthorised development.
    Tax exemptions cannot be claimed against such properties.
    Such properties cannot be sold.

    There is a statue of limitations after which enforcement action cannot be taken against the owner, but THAT DOES NOT BESTOW AUTOMATIC PLANNING PERMISSION onto the development!

    Retention planning permission is always required.
    Retention planning fees are three times those of standard fees.
    FSC fees are 4 times.


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    #24
    BryanF
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,140 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF


    +1 on sydthebeat's post
    kingchess wrote: »
    1. are you guys saying you can"t build without planning permission(which is the the law of the land),
    2. but if you build anyway and get away with it for 7 years the law can not do anything??
    3. a case of it is better to ask for forgiveness rather than ask for permission

    1. PLANNING PERMISSION IS REQUIRED (unless the building falls under exempted development
    2. not being 'made' to knock it and being able to live in it, are two different things. Planning Enforcements powers are further reaching than you might think. btw its '7years (+*) from the time the planning has lapsed. so that's 12 years(*) from then time planning is granted.
    3. get planning and build as per planning:
    Any thread/post that is looking for ways to get around the planning process, or building regulations, or any other statutory legislation, or advising somebody to ignore these legislation's and regulations, will be deleted and the poster will be banned indefinitely.



    (+* a number of days per year - i think this is the number of public holidays but perhaps PUT can confirm ? )


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    #25
    kingchess
    Registered Users Posts: 795 ✭✭✭kingchess


    kingchess wrote: »
    are you guys saying you can"t build without planning permission(which is the the law of the land), but if you build anyway and get away with it for 7 years the law can not do anything??a case of it is better to ask for forgiveness rather than ask for permission

    I should have started my post with-Vinnie, are you saying ......


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    #26
    Poor Uncle Tom
    Registered Users Posts: 14,544 ✭✭✭✭Poor Uncle Tom


    BryanF wrote: »
    (+* a number of days per year - i think this is the number of public holidays but perhaps PUT can confirm ? )

    9 days per year, ie., 63 days added to the 7 year period and 108 days added to the 12 year period.


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    #27
    vinnie13
    Registered Users Posts: 494 ✭✭vinnie13


    so after 7 years the council cant make you take it down?


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    #28
    martinn123
    Registered Users Posts: 2,300 ✭✭✭martinn123


    vinnie13 wrote: »
    so after 7 years the council cant make you take it down?

    No that'll be the High Court.


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    #29
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 40,981 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    vinnie13 wrote: »
    so after 7 years the council cant make you take it down?

    ... which is completely different than you posted earlier.
    vinnie13 wrote: »
    If the building has been used for living linger than 7years no planning is required

    it would be a huge waste of money to have spent on an unauthorized project.


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