The most and least Gaelic counties?

AngloIrishMan · 27-02-2015 12:36pm #1

Disregarding the recent waves of immigration since the '90s, which county is the most racially gaelic and which is the least racially gaelic?

Jesus. · 27-02-2015 1:28pm

WTF?

AngloIrishMan · 27-02-2015 1:52pm

Jesus. wrote: »

WTF?

What do you mean? I thought that the question was quite clear, no?

airmax87 · 27-02-2015 1:53pm

who cares

Chemical Byrne · 27-02-2015 1:57pm

I would imagine the western seaboard counties would be the most gaelic and intermarried norman in the sense of having "native irish" ancestry and names while the eastern seaboard counties would have a greater proportion of people decended from plantation and Republican/Commonweatlth era settlers.

Hell or to Connaught and all that jazz.

Day Lewin · 27-02-2015 2:01pm

By "racially" do you mean, having inherited the most DNA from those who lived here before...before some incursion by someone else?
Depending how you define "Gaelic"; is it an actual separate ethnicity as in, a cluster of genes? [some tribe?}
or did you mean language or cultural practices?

deadlybuzzman · 27-02-2015 2:09pm

There was a bbc documentary years back called blood of the vikings where they wanted to establish what was genetically the most viking place in Britain.
For this they needed a comparison population, somewhere where they thought had the least amount of incursions by foreigners over history, the most genetically unchanged/ inbred.
They picked castlerea co roscommon.

Ipso · 27-02-2015 3:39pm

What are modern populations going to be compared against?

dubhthach · 27-02-2015 5:14pm

Well at a minimum 75-80% of population have "native" (eg. Gaelic) surnames. But I think you be hard pressed to find someone who doesn't have a Cambro-Norman surname somewhere in their tree. Likewise for someone bearing a Cambro-Norman or "New English" surname will have countless ancestors bearing "native" surnames. It's worth bearing out of course the Cambro-Norman barons tended to be marrying Irish nobility within the first 2-3 generations in Ireland. Thence their adaption of native Irish customs on marriage, inheritance, language etc.

dubhthach · 27-02-2015 5:16pm

As for language, well the below basically maps the linguistic situation in late 18th century:

for example Donegal would have looked like this:

Crann na Beatha · 27-02-2015 5:18pm

This post has been deleted.

dubhthach · 27-02-2015 5:26pm

Phoenix wrote: »

What book is the maps from Dubhthach?

I've forgotten on the first one, the second one if from a book on Social history of Donegal. Both are based on research by the late former Taoiseach Dr. Garret Fitzgerald (published by Royal Irish Academy)

Brian Shanahan · 28-02-2015 1:22pm

AngloIrishMan wrote: »

Disregarding the recent waves of immigration since the '90s, which county is the most racially gaelic and which is the least racially gaelic?

You do realise that the Gaels "invaded" the island c.500BCE? Most people would have a relatively wide mix of genes* in their ancestral pool due to the fact that the island was repeatedly colonised over the years by various different ethnic groups. Frankly we should be proud of our mongrelism, it means we have a more robust genotype.

*By non-African norms anyway. The genetic diversity of non-African peoples is actually much smaller than the genetic diversity within Africa. This is due to the fact that, until recently, the vast majority of migration out of Africa, or species original home, was through the bottle neck at Sinai, meaning that the majority of the world's peoples are descended from a small group of people who were the first to move off the continent. This is changing now with increasing worldwide travel, and the atlantic slave trade, but the fact of the matter is that there is more genetic difference between two neighbour tribes in Africa than between the typical Irish man and Chinese man.

dubhthach · 28-02-2015 1:58pm

500BC is an interesting date, some would argue that proto-Celtic or it's immediate ancestor "Proto-Indo-European" (various western dialects that gave rise to Celtic, Italic and Germanic groups) was possibly present in Ireland since the Bronze age. For example there's been some work done which points to Irish and Welsh having diverged around 1000BC.

Leaving that aside Irish people are fairly standard Northern Europeans, at most basic level we are made up of three major genetic inputs namely:
1. Mesolithic hunter gathers
2. Neolithic farmers
3. "Ancient Northeast Eurasian", which appears to be linked to late Bronze age onwards (for example Yamnaya material culture of the Steppe often regarded as material culture of "Proto-Indo Europeans")

Contribution from ANE makes up about 15% easily of average Irish person's genome, so far earliest appearances of this component in Ancient DNA is from late Bronze age onwards. Basically we are as admixed as say modern Mexican's or Brazilians except in our case the admixture is over a period of 5-8,000 years as oppose to 4-500 years.

robp · 28-02-2015 2:19pm

AngloIrishMan wrote: »

Disregarding the recent waves of immigration since the '90s, which county is the most racially gaelic and which is the least racially gaelic?

Gaelic is a grouping of languages. Its not a biological a term. I think what you mean to ask what part of Ireland has seen the least admixture be it from Normans and later population waves. Now that is a valid and a very interesting question and I don't think there is enough genetic studies done to find out just yet.

dubhthach · 28-02-2015 6:06pm

The thing is that until the 16th century there wasn't a huge influx of "new blood" into the "colony" obviously the landholding elite (gentry) were incomers and there was migration into Wexford and places such as Barrow valley from likes of Wales/English midlands/SW england. But even in there areas the pre-existing "Gaelic Irish" still made up vast majority of population.

What's quite interesting is that all of the cambro-norman units of enfeudation are actually based off pre-existing Gaelic Irish land divisions. MacCotter has a book that looks into this (paperback edition just released)

Medieval Ireland: Territorial, Political and Economic Divisions

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Medieval-Ireland-Territorial-Political-Divisions/dp/1846825571/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1425142944&sr=8-1&keywords=medieval+ireland+territorial+political+and+economic+divisions

Tbh the only place on the island where the pre-existing population could be say to now form a minority is parts of the north, Antrim for example, though it's complicated there as you have both incidence of religious conversion as well as migration of people of Gaelic ancestry (scottish in this case).

In the rest of the country the likes of the Cambro-Norman's were subsumed into the rest of population within 100-150 years becoming basically induistingable, thence for example the two major branches of the Connacht Burkes adapting pre-existing inaguration sites as well as the concept of Derbfine and abandonment of primogeniture.

Santa Cruz · 28-02-2015 7:44pm

AngloIrishMan wrote: »

Disregarding the recent waves of immigration since the '90s, which county is the most racially gaelic and which is the least racially gaelic?

You mean the counties with the highest level of inbreeding

robp · 28-02-2015 7:58pm

Chemical Byrne wrote: »

I would imagine the western seaboard counties would be the most gaelic and intermarried norman in the sense of having "native irish" ancestry and names while the eastern seaboard counties would have a greater proportion of people decended from plantation and Republican/Commonweatlth era settlers.

Hell or to Connaught and all that jazz.

It is precisely for this reason that Connaught may not be as native as one might think. Cromwellian relocations drove many many Catholic landowners from the rest of country who had France/British ancestry into the region.

dubhthach · 28-02-2015 8:30pm

Catholic landholders were quite a small grouping, the thing people keep forgetting is that the actual peasants weren't forced off the land. It was land holders who often held several thousand acres (eg. "Captain of their nation")

You also have to remember that certain people regained land holdings during the restoration. One of more interesting affects of this period the fact that the O'Flaherty's lost their land holding (which they had held for over 500 years) due to duplicity of the Martin family, basically swindling Roderick O'Flaherty (one of most important authors/scholars of 17th century) out of their patrimony.

dubhthach · 28-02-2015 8:30pm

Santa Cruz wrote: »

You mean the counties with the highest level of inbreeding

Please read the forum charter, I won't tolerate such posts again.

DarkyHughes · 28-02-2015 11:29pm

South Amagh, West Cork, Wexford (played a huge part in 1798) pariticular areas in Belfast. Tyrone, Dublin & Limerick

Santa Cruz · 01-03-2015 12:33am

DarkyHughes wrote: »

South Amagh, West Cork, Wexford (played a huge part in 1798) pariticular areas in Belfast. Tyrone, Dublin & Limerick

South Armagh people assaulted Sinn Fein candidate in 1918 as they wanted the AOH man elected

tac foley · 01-03-2015 9:13am

deadlybuzzman wrote: »

There was a bbc documentary years back called blood of the vikings where they wanted to establish what was genetically the most viking place in Britain.
For this they needed a comparison population, somewhere where they thought had the least amount of incursions by foreigners over history, the most genetically unchanged/ inbred.
They picked castlerea co roscommon.

I was led to believe that it was generally agreed years ago that the population of the Orkney Islands was the part of the British Isles least affected by incursive genetic material.

tac

tac foley · 01-03-2015 9:13am

Santa Cruz wrote: »

South Armagh people assaulted Sinn Fein candidate in 1918 as they wanted the AOH man elected

And this is connected to the thread, how?

tac

Duckworth_Luas · 01-03-2015 12:37pm

tac foley wrote: »

I was led to believe that it was generally agreed years ago that the population of the Orkney Islands was the part of the British Isles least affected by incursive genetic material.

tac

Generally agreed by who? The Orkneys were subject to a large migration of Norse settlers in the Viking era. If anything it's one of the prime candidates to be most affected by "non-native" genetic material.

newmug · 01-03-2015 12:58pm

robp wrote: »

It is precisely for this reason that Connaught may not be as native as one might think. Cromwellian relocations drove many many Catholic landowners from the rest of country who had France/British ancestry into the region.

dubhthach wrote: »

Catholic landholders were quite a small grouping, the thing people keep forgetting is that the actual peasants weren't forced off the land. It was land holders who often held several thousand acres (eg. "Captain of their nation")

Exactly. Ever notice the way travellers sometimes have "bigshot" English names? Stokes, Joyce, Dukes, Hand, Power, Price, Nevin etc.? These were the people Cromwell deposed and forced to go west, not your average Paddy Murphy or Sean O'Reilly. Travellers still have strong ties with Ballinasloe and Rathkeale, the first main towns their ancestors while migrating across the country. A lot of them just stopped there and went no further.

Santa Cruz · 01-03-2015 1:08pm

tac foley wrote: »

And this is connected to the thread, how?

tac

By showing that South Armagh wasn't always the stronghold they make out

Duckworth_Luas · 01-03-2015 1:13pm

Santa Cruz wrote: »

By showing that South Armagh wasn't always the stronghold they make out

Who makes out the South Armagh was always a SF stronghold? The first SF candidate was only elected in a North Roscommon by-election in 1917.

Jesus. · 01-03-2015 2:28pm

Santa Cruz wrote: »

You mean the counties with the highest level of inbreeding

dubhthach wrote: »

Please read the forum charter, I won't tolerate such posts again.

Humour will not be tolerated on this Board :rolleyes:

tac foley · 01-03-2015 3:47pm

Duckworth_Luas wrote: »

Generally agreed by who? The Orkneys were subject to a large migration of Norse settlers in the Viking era. If anything it's one of the prime candidates to be most affected by "non-native" genetic material.

Let me just re-phrase that slightly - 'SINCE the incursion of Norse settlers...'

tac

Duckworth_Luas · 01-03-2015 3:58pm

tac foley wrote: »

Let me just re-phrase that slightly - 'SINCE the incursion of Norse settlers...'

tac

Well that makes absolutely no sense in relation to the post you quoted.

The most and least Gaelic counties?

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