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child support and father rights

2

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    annie1984 wrote: »
    I personally thinks ots juat trying to cause trouble and although she's living with someone else she just doesn't want to see us happy. Like everythimg has been ok ish over the past 10years
    Wouldn't be the first time, if that's the case.

    I'd concentrate on a reasonable effort to come to a compromise, followed by taking the legal route (although that may not be resolved in time for your wedding) if I were your fiancée. Her motivations, especially if less than altruistic, will inevitably come out in court if it comes to that, so I wouldn't dwell on them for now.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,124 ✭✭✭wolfpawnat


    My mother didn't want us going to my father's wedding. I guess she was annoyed he'd gotten on with his life or something. But thankfully at 14 and 17 we made our positions clear. Horrible she won't let the little one on the Honeymoon with you both, clearly the child would be excited about it and fair dues for including them, many wouldn't. As others have said, try talking to her, if not if there is time for the legal route go for it, if not, I dunno :(


  • Registered Users Posts: 6 Camusky


    Hi,

    Just one question relating to my own circumstances.

    Does anyone know how child maintenance is calculated?
    Is it based on income or on income and any savings?
    I am on welfare but I have some savings.
    Am I expected to spend any savings to pay maintenance?
    How would a judge look at this?

    Cheers.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,624 ✭✭✭wmpdd3


    If you claim you cannot pay the appropriate amount of child maintenance due to limited means, then you would have to explain why you think you savings are not means.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6 Camusky


    wmpdd3,

    Thanks very much for your post.

    Without wanting to be too pedantic about it I don't see how having one asset type, (some) savings is different from owing a car or a house for example. I don't have a house, I rent, but I have a car. Would I be expected to sell my car to maintain the current level of maintenance?

    (By the way, I have always paid and continue to pay maintenance. My difficulty is with the level of maintenance. I am seeking to have it reduced.)

    My car is 10 years old. If I bought a newer car and exhausted any savings I have then I would have the same income (social welfare) and zero savings.

    I would then not be able to maintain the current level of maintenance.
    Similarly, if I decided to move to better accomodation and paid a higher rent, this would soon exhaust any savings.

    I live very frugally. I don't see how the fact that I am careful with money should be held against me.

    I'd appreciate your opinion on this again or if you are aware of the legal niceties of income versus means, I'd appreciate it.


    Thanks again.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Camusky wrote: »
    Without wanting to be too pedantic about it I don't see how having one asset type, (some) savings is different from owing a car or a house for example. I don't have a house, I rent, but I have a car. Would I be expected to sell my car to maintain the current level of maintenance?
    I don't believe a judge can direct you to specifically do something like sell your car, but they can set maintenance at a level where you'll realistically be forced to. It really depends on the judge, and their mood, on the day.
    I live very frugally. I don't see how the fact that I am careful with money should be held against me.
    Unfortunately it is. Child and spousal maintenance, division of assets in divorce, damages awarded against you in civil cases, social welfare and so on, all seem to work on the principle of the one who plays the poor-mouth best wins in Ireland.

    In practical terms it encourages people to either spend or hide whatever they have, because the more you have the worse off you'll be when it comes to maintenance, of any type, or (means-tested) social welfare payments being decided.

    Of course, if you're looking to go to court in the near future, it's too late for you to do anything now, as suddenly a big chunk of your savings 'vanishing' just before being assessed will obviously look like you're trying to minimize what you have to pay, and a judge may punish you for this by setting an unrealistically high level.

    In your situation, I might be tempted to delay seeking a motion of variance of maintenance for a few months, so as to give yourself the time to make yourself look 'poorer' without looking like you're doing so simply for the benefit of the courts.

    It'll mean you'll have to pay the higher level for the next few months, but in the long run you'll pay less.

    Until, that is, you're brought to court again for another motion of variance; after all, the other party can do this too (multiple times a year if they so wish), so you're going to have to continue playing the 'poor-mouth' for a long time to come if you want to protect assets such as savings.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9 SpiceRack


    Hi People,

    i posted a While back in relation to the Welfare contacting me and asking me to nearly double my maintanice payments to the morther of my child. On advice given to me i wore a Registered letter back to them refusing to raise the payments as it would put me under severe pressure financially and effect my realtionship with my Child in Return and also asking them on what ground they could make me pay and asked to to outline the excact reasons for the increase.

    Upon Writing this letter back in January I have heard nothing since. And the treat to decrease the Welfare payments to the morher has not been done either. As adviced to me i think this letter was just to shake teh tree and see if they could squeeze me for more cash.

    If anything further arises out of this i will update the thread. Fingers crossed it doesn't tho.

    Thanks again for help and advise given.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6 Camusky


    Corinthian,

    Thanks for your post.

    My biggest mistake was the level of maintenance I agreed to originally. It was not ordered by a court after examining both sets of financial circumstances. Family and friends at the time thought I was crazy. It wasn't that I was on good money then either. Taking the maintenance I pay, including the same contribution from my ex, who has a good job, and adding in child benefit, it all comes to a very tidy sum. Friends with kids can't believe it.

    I am hoping that on a full examination of the financial facts that a court will
    reduce the level of maintenance substantially. However, I've been in the District Court before and they are so busy most cases get a very perusary examination of the facts.

    I hate talking about all this financial stuff to be honest. I have a gourgeous young daughter who is the love of my life. However, to be a better Dad I need to have some quality of life also.

    Thanks again for your post.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Camusky wrote: »
    My biggest mistake was the level of maintenance I agreed to originally. It was not ordered by a court after examining both sets of financial circumstances. Family and friends at the time thought I was crazy. It wasn't that I was on good money then either.
    It's not unusual for that to happen; such is the euphoria of becoming a father you don't work out if you can actually afford to pay that amount. When you do realize, the mother has gotten used to the amount and refuses to accept a decrease - I presume this is the case with you, otherwise if she supports the decrease, then the judge won't bother with any financial examination and just rule accordingly.
    However, I've been in the District Court before and they are so busy most cases get a very perusary examination of the facts.
    Then make it very simple for them to read - give them a one page summary, along with all the more detailed documents that back up the summary.
    However, to be a better Dad I need to have some quality of life also.
    Depends on what judge you get on the day and what mood they're in.

    Unfortunately Irish law all too often treats fathers as little more than ATM's, undeserving of quality of life.


  • Registered Users Posts: 35 jawacz


    Surely posters have more questions.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3 Worried1


    Hi Just wondering anyone out there with a bit of advice for me. It concerns my brother who has been living with his partner for over seven years and have 2 children. He only found out that his partner had taken his children and cleaned out the house (helped by her parents who travelled over) and moved to Scotland (originally from) this had been well planned as the child starts school today. He is a long distance truck driver. What does he do next. All advice welcome as we are stumped…..


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,449 ✭✭✭✭pwurple


    Worried1 wrote: »
    Hi Just wondering anyone out there with a bit of advice for me. It concerns my brother who has been living with his partner for over seven years and have 2 children. He only found out that his partner had taken his children and cleaned out the house (helped by her parents who travelled over) and moved to Scotland (originally from) this had been well planned as the child starts school today. He is a long distance truck driver. What does he do next. All advice welcome as we are stumped…..

    Did he ever get around to becoming the legal guardian of the children (this would have been either through marriage to their mother, or through a solicitor separately per child), or is he still a legal stranger to them? He will have more rights as a guardian.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3 Worried1


    No engaged but not married. Never thought he needed to apply for guardianship unfortunately.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Worried1 wrote: »
    No engaged but not married. Never thought he needed to apply for guardianship unfortunately.
    Then he is legally a stranger to his children; i.e. he has absolutely no legal rights under Irish law.

    Thing is that they're in Scotland, which means that his rights as a father are governed by Scottish law. Unfortunately, from what I gather Scottish, English, Welsh and NI law are at best only marginally less backward than Irish law in this regard.

    He should also consider that under Irish law, he also could be liable to pay not only maintenance for his children, but also for their mother, given their lengthy cohabitation.

    He should contact a solicitor ASAP.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,449 ✭✭✭✭pwurple


    +1 to what The Corinthian has said above.

    Your brother left himself wide open legally unfortunately by neither getting guardianship arranged, or by being married to the mother of his children.

    He now has 0 legal right to access his children. I really wish more men were more aware of this stuff. It ends up in right messes when things go wrong. Very sad. Very similar to the messes people leave behind by never getting around to making a will.


    On whether the de facto relationship makes him liable for maintenance.... I wouldn't be sure. Contact a solicitor, see below for an extract from this UCD paper on legal rights of de facto relationships
    http://www.ucd.ie/esc/research/defacto.pdf
    In such circumstances, maintenance may be sought from either
    parent, regardless of their marital status. The legislation does not permit an
    application seeking direct provision in respect of a non-marital partner. Additionally,
    although legislation permits a parent to seek maintenance from a spouse or former
    spouse on behalf of a child who, though not a child of the former, was treated as a
    child of the family, this facility does not apply in the case of a de facto partner of the
    parent
    .


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    pwurple wrote: »
    I really wish more men were more aware of this stuff.
    I'd imagine it would be a pretty awkward thing to bring up even if a man were aware of it. After all, while with guardianship there are practical considerations (who has custody if something happens to the mother) I've found that a man seeking guardianship is often treated on a par with asking for a pre-nup (you'll see threads appear on this every now and then). I suspect many men put it on the long finger because they're afraid to broach the subject.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3 Worried1


    Thanks for your replies. I will get him to contact a solicitor asap.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,449 ✭✭✭✭pwurple


    I'd imagine it would be a pretty awkward thing to bring up even if a man were aware of it. After all, while with guardianship there are practical considerations (who has custody if something happens to the mother) I've found that a man seeking guardianship is often treated on a par with asking for a pre-nup (you'll see threads appear on this every now and then). I suspect many men put it on the long finger because they're afraid to broach the subject.

    Yeah, people prefer a good head-in-the-sand approach to legal practicalities in general. You should see the reaction when you ask people if they have a will made... it's like you just threatened to shoot them yourself.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,390 ✭✭✭clairefontaine


    This is not legal advice. This is what I would do. I would call every single Sherrifs office in Scotland, even if it took me years to do it. I would never give up on my family.

    I would call every primary or secondary school in Scotland too.

    If the parents were over, chances are that is where she is and chances are he knows where that is. I would move on this fast, first port of call, local Sherrifs office.

    If he is named on the birthcertificate, in the vast majority of countries, that is enough to secure rights.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11 bagsy


    Hey,

    I'm sure this has been addressed many times but I was wondering if anyone could advise me on my current situation.

    I used to earn €1,218 net per fortnight until the recent budget cut left me down €100 net. I pay €240 maintenance per month as well paying half of any bills including holidays, birthdays, xmas, school books, sports expenses etc.

    I play a very active part in all aspects of my child's life and wouldn't have it any other way. I have worked hard to have a really good relationship with the mother and all her family which has led to many stress free years.

    My issue now is should I threaten this with money discussions? My decreased wages will certainly effect my lifestyle but I usually decide to say nothing. I broached the issue a few weeks back and got the usual response ie she doesn't want to know about it. I said I would look into it further and so have been trying to research it. I don't know too many people in a similar situation so was hoping someone out there might have experience.

    To be honest all I want out of this is an equitable split of expenses. Our child stays with the mother for the majority of the week and with me at the weekend. I collect from school 3 days a week and do homework or whatever else may arise.

    Anyways thats my lot , any advice would be great.

    Cheers


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    bagsy wrote: »
    I pay €240 maintenance per month as well paying half of any bills including holidays, birthdays, xmas, school books, sports expenses etc.
    Legally, you're under no obligation to pay a single cent above court ordered maintenance. The idea of maintenance is, ultimately, that all those bills are supposed to come out of it, and if you think that your maintenance won't be able to cover it all, that's because it's not supposed to; the mother is also legally obliged to pay twoards the upkeep of the child.

    As such, you don't have to do anything other than curtail or stop paying those bills, although I would strongly advise you to first send the mother a registered letter informing her, without too many details, that your income has recently suffered and thus you will have to stop paying certain bills, then detailing which ones.

    As long as you continue to pay the maintenance, on time and at the current rate, you will not be in breach of any court order. It's up to her then to bring you to court to have her maintenance increased, which given you've suffered a recent decrease in income will be unlikely.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11 bagsy


    Thanks for that


  • Registered Users Posts: 5 carmelb77


    hi,

    Does anyone know what the district court will do to enforce a maintenance order that is not being paid? Ive been advised to go there to ask them to start enforcement proceedings.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    carmelb77 wrote: »
    Does anyone know what the district court will do to enforce a maintenance order that is not being paid? Ive been advised to go there to ask them to start enforcement proceedings.
    I believe the procedure is that once all other legal attempts to get the person against whom the maintenance order is set to comply, then eventually a bench warrant is issued, which means that they could end up being thrown in jail until they do comply.

    The same applies, in theory, in the case of access orders being ignored.

    How long before you get to that point will vary (mainly on the judge) and could first require a few visits before a judge as he wags his finger and tells the defendant to 'shape up'. Once at that point, it largely depends on the Gardai; unless the bench warrant is executed at the court (i.e. they are present on the day), the Gardai are less than proactive on this matter, from what I gather, and won't bother chasing them up.

    Sorry I can't help further, but I've never been in this situation myself; only witnessed others going through it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5 carmelb77


    Hi,

    Thanks for that, yes we have been to court now in front of 2 different Judges for a total of 8 times, very long drawn out, but basically he has been asked to submit income proof or lack of whichever, he has never done so, the last time he didnt attend but sent a solicitor to represent him and the Judge was in a bad mood i thought and wanted an agreement made outside before the hearing, so i feel i was forced into it in a way , anyway i agreed to an amount, which since he has not paid a single cent of....ive been advised now to go back to the court clerk and ask for enforcement proceedings to begin. Im worn down by the entire system and how it works and feel like giving up however the law states both parents must contribute financially so im not sure why it takes so long to get a result really, it seems a bit unfair. He has been threatened with jail twice during these hearings , do you know if its possible for the court to appoint the sherriff to collect or is jail the only option?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    I believe that you can get an 'attachment of earnings' which would mean that it'll be taken directly out of his pay packet or SW payments - so you may want to enquire about that. Bare in mind, if self-employed or under the tax radar, this would be difficult to implement.

    Enforcement of any court order in a family case appears to be a bit of a joke in Ireland and it's not limited to maintenance orders. At least you have the threat of jail that can be used - were this an access order, it would be nigh impossible to get a judge to do the same to a mother who repeatedly breaks such an order (although it has on rare occasions happened).


  • Registered Users Posts: 5 carmelb77


    Thanks,

    Ive just been with the Court Clerk and he told me this: i have to write to the court and submit bank statements showing no payments , yes he is self employed so its more difficult, he told me the sheriff is not used in family law cases but if i wanted to go down that route i would need to ask a solicitor to action a civil suit similar to one used for any debt owing and its a long process and an expensive one.

    So, round in circles it goes.

    It is not my intention to send anyone to jail, however it seems its the only option in maintenance arrears cases.

    Thanks for your reply.


  • Registered Users Posts: 110 ✭✭HotHHead


    You shouldn't need to provide any proof to the court clerk that the money isn't been paid, the proof is needed for the judge.. I know different court office rules vary but still this is ridiculous, you shoud just be able to go to your local office apply for an enforement of maintenance order and that is it..
    You can't apply for an attachment of earnings order with a self employed person.
    In my experience, on the jail front, they get locked up for a few hours maybe over night and nothing changes.. so don't let this put you off.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1 Scouser01


    hi

    me and my ex came to a agreement for maintenance of 50 euro per week, she is on lone parent and iam working earning 350 per week
    i got a letter from social welfare saying they want me to pay 100 euro per week that at present this department seeks 100 euro per child per week, can they do this to me ? i help out with my ex with money if my daughter needs anything and see her everyday, your help be much appreciated thanks.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    BTH, it's already been answered numerous times on this and other threads. So read through the thread and you'll get your answer.


This discussion has been closed.
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